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Old 12-30-2004, 07:57 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLoreanfan1
Like the saying in New Hampshire......


"Live free or die!"
Great research. We will only begin to get an idea of what really happened on 9/11 if we keep asking questions. I think it involved many countries and organizations for many different reasons.It was such a detailed plan that we will probably never know the whole truth of the matter. I've always said that you get the best idea of a govts. intention by watching how they react to situations and not how they act on their own. Look at the amount of time it took to try to install the patriot act. It's like they already had it written up. Now consider how long it took to pass the intelligence reform bill which is supposed to protect us while leaving out the 2 most important safety measures it could include. I watched family members of 9/11 victims on C-SPAN begging anyone in congress who would listen to not support the intelligence reform until it addressed key areas of concern. Of course it passed within a week of that. The administration will not do anything to close borders because of the money that big companies can get by hiring illegal aliens. Thats why they want to give them drivers licenses. Terrorists are pouring into our country across the borders we want to give them drivers licenses. Sure the terrorists may kill some people but look at the money made by the companies, a lot of which donated to the campaign of Bush. No offense to Got2skigrl but if you think the current administration is making this country safer you are sadly mistaken.
Also since you brought up Bill Clinton I have to say something. When will things stop being his fault? What did he do? Let's see, well, he greatly improved our economy. He even helped strengthen trade with many, many countries which helped their economies and eventually helped ours. He built up the first ever, and might I add a rather nice, surplus in this country. That alone would have paid for social security for decades to come. Now we must find another 2 TRILLION dollars for that. He kept the world as a whole pretty much peaceful with very little force. Sure he dropped some bombs on Iraq, but that was just to let Hussein know that we were keeping him in check and it's not like we took over the country. Plus his plan worked because after we got to Iraq to look for these "weapons" it was discoverd that not only did he not have any but that his weapons program had been getting weaker ever since the first Iraq war. Do you remember what started WWI? A state sponsored assasination. That is exactly what us killing Bin Laden would have been back then. The Bush administration had knowledge of the 9/11 attacks so maybe he was the one who didnt keep us safe. Again I say you must look at his actions to find his intentions. What bills has he passed to take away rights? What bills has he passed to make us safer? From what I see the Bush administration doesnt have my safety as a top priority, only more money for the big corporations.
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Old 12-30-2004, 01:09 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cocky4ever
Also since you brought up Bill Clinton I have to say something. When will things stop being his fault? What did he do? Let's see, well, he greatly improved our economy. He even helped strengthen trade with many, many countries which helped their economies and eventually helped ours. He built up the first ever, and might I add a rather nice, surplus in this country. That alone would have paid for social security for decades to come. Now we must find another 2 TRILLION dollars for that.

Thanks Cocky. I researched my theory for 2 whole days and that's what I found.

As for Bill Clinton, I have to agree with got2skigrl and I'll tell you why.

Terrorists are like children. They will try to push you to your breaking point to see how far they can go. Well they kept pushing Clinton more and more. For example;

Oklahoma City (I don't think Tim McVeigh did it. Ask me why)
USS Cole
Embassies in Africa
1st WTC bombing
Marine Barracks in Saudi Arabia
TWA Flight 800

That's six (6) different terrorist attacks during Mr. Clinton's presidency and the bad thing is, we have one (1) during Bush's term and now we want to crucify him.

As for the budget surplus, you are correct. He did have a surplus. Where did the surplus come from though is what you should be asking. Well, it came from the numerous cuts to the military and intelligence services.

Now I know this doesn't apply to Clinton, but it does apply to his wife. She is proposing a bill that would limit gun ownership by private law abiding citizens. That my friend, is very dangerous. An armed populace is the only thing that keeps our government in check.

Just so you know I'm not a Republician. I am a registered Libertarian here in NC.

To sum it up, I think 9/11 was a joint operation between the US and Israel.
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Old 12-30-2004, 01:29 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I'll keep digging for more info on this topic.
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Old 12-30-2004, 02:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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The suggestion of an Israeli connection to the events surrounding 9/11 did not spring, full blown, like Athena from the head of Zeus. It had been hovering in the background, implied in odd accounts such as the one about the group of Israelis picked by the FBI after they were spotted in Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, laughing and giving each other high-fives as the World Trade Center burned on the other side of the river. In an astonishing story in the Bergen Record, we learn that 5 men described as "Israeli tourists," were picked up 8 hours after the WTC attack, "carrying maps linking them to the blasts." Sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot. 'There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted,' the source said. 'It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park. According to this account, the 5 "tourists" had been picked up by local police after receiving the following alert from the FBI:

"Vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack. White, 2000 Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center. Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals."

Then there was the story about the two employees of the Odigo Company, an Israeli-based "instant-messaging" software company, with New York offices in the vicinity of the WTC, who received messages in the hours before disaster struck that the World Trade Center would be hit. I was so skeptical of this report, published in Ha'aretz, an Israeli daily newspaper, that I wrote the author: he confirmed the contents of these mysterious missives and cited his sources. In this context, the Washington Post story fit into an eerie pattern: it was not the final but the definitive piece of the puzzle: the piece that, once found and put in place, evokes an exclamation of "so that's what it is!" I was alone, at the time, in raising the possibility of an Israeli angle to the story of 9/11 – but not for long.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...rassID=/has%5C

On December 11, Fox News ran the first of a four-part series by Carl Cameron that offered yet more evidence to support my contention that the Israelis had some rather specific foreknowledge of the 9/11 atrocity. Citing sources in law enforcement, Cameron dropped a bombshell:

"A handful of active Israeli military were among those detained, according to investigators, who say some of the detainees also failed polygraph questions when asked about alleged surveillance activities against and in the United States. There is no indication that the Israelis were involved in the 9-11 attacks, but investigators suspect that they may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it. A highly placed investigator said there are – quote – 'tie-ins.' But when asked for details, he flatly refused to describe them, saying, – quote – 'evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information.' Fox News has learned that one group of Israelis, spotted in North Carolina recently, is suspected of keeping an apartment in California to spy on a group of Arabs who the United States is also investigating for links to terrorism."

Could it be that the Israeli's were a part of 9/11 or were they just spectators?
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Old 12-30-2004, 02:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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well actually licoln did almost the same thing during the war between the states/civil war- he passed a law where one could be arrested and held in jail for "suspicion" of being a spy and the government-aka army- could use anything of citizens they needed with out permission. this is not a new thing to happen in time of war. and not just the president passed this. 2/3 of the senators elected by the people had to approve it. and it is only good while we are at war. its not like the government is going to go to your house and just arrest you for no reason, they are just trying to speed up the process of capturing terrorist by not needing such things as search warrents.
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Old 12-30-2004, 02:30 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by got2skigrl
well actually licoln did almost the same thing during the war between the states/civil war- he passed a law where one could be arrested and held in jail for "suspicion" of being a spy and the government-aka army- could use anything of citizens they needed with out permission. this is not a new thing to happen in time of war. and not just the president passed this. 2/3 of the senators elected by the people had to approve it. and it is only good while we are at war. its not like the government is going to go to your house and just arrest you for no reason, they are just trying to speed up the process of capturing terrorist by not needing such things as search warrents.
That statement alone goes against what our forefathers died for. The 4th Amendment protects us against searches and seizures without a court issued warrant and due process of law. The USA Patriot Act nullifies the following amendments;

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


One thing that people don't realize is that the Bill of Rights does NOT say what we can or cannot do. It limits what the GOVERNMENT can or cannot do. If you allow walls to be put up concerning certain God given freedoms, then we may wake up and find out that walls have been built up around ALL of our freedoms.

So based on your assumptions on arrest and search powers, we are going to trust the government (A government that has lied to it's people consistantly) to not abuse their powers? HA! I'll believe that when I win the lottery, have a car accident, open heart surgery and get struck by lightning in the same day.

If you don't think they arrest US CITIZENS without probable cause, do a Google.com search on US born citizen Jose Padillia.

I love this country with all of my heart. I'm a registered Libertarian here in NC and I DO NOT believe in trading my freedoms to make peoples lives easier. Our freedom is exactly what makes this country the best in the world.
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Old 12-30-2004, 02:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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look in a history book dude it happened it will ahppen again and america is no worse for it
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Old 12-30-2004, 02:53 PM   #23 (permalink)
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i knnow what the constitution says but it also has provisions for times of war
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Old 12-30-2004, 02:54 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Posing as "art students" selling cheap handicrafts and paintings, as many as 120 young Israelis – the majority of whom "stated they served in military intelligence, electronic surveillance intercept and or explosive ordinance units" in the Israeli army – made contact with US government officials and personnel in "hundreds of incidents and towns across the country." Indeed, there had been so many news reports in local media, concentrated especially in Texas and Florida, detailing this activity that the National Counterintellligence Center issued the following alert:

"In the past six weeks, employees in federal office buildings located throughout the United States have reported suspicious activities connected with individuals representing themselves as foreign students selling or delivering artwork. Employees have observed both males and females attempting to bypass facility security and enter federal buildings."

These "students," the NCC observed, who "have been described as aggressive," didn't seem too interested in selling anybody anything, and instead seemed intent on simply gaining access. Two were arrested (in Texas) and, lo and behold, it was discovered that their work visas and green cards were counterfeit. One particularly eerie aspect of all this is these "students" turning up at "the private residences of senior federal officials under the guise of selling art." On October 2, KHOU-TV of Houston, Texas, reported that, earlier in the year, these guys were caught sneaking into "federal buildings and defense sites," and, in Dallas,

"The so-called students hit early this year at the city's FBI building, the Drug Enforcement Administration and at the Earle Cabell Federal building, where guards found one student wandering the halls with a floor plan of the building."

"A few of the operatives are well known in the Israeli intelligence community. The report cited the names of Peer Segalovitz (military registration number 5087989) and Aran Ofek, son of a renowned two-star general in the Israeli army. The network targeted some of the most sensitive sites in the U.S., such as Tanker Air Force Base near Oklahoma City. Indeed, the U.S. Air Force's Office of Special Investigation sent a letter to the Justice Department on May 16 of last year to ask for assistance in a case against four Israelis suspected of spying: Yaron Ohana, Ronen Kalfon, Zeev Cohen and Naor Topaz."

A reporter goes on a limb here and states
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Old 12-30-2004, 02:59 PM   #25 (permalink)
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9/11 - WHAT DID THE GOVERNMENT KNOW AND WHEN DID IT KNOW IT?

The task was simple, deny the evidence, cover-up the embarrassing arrest of two Israelis with an explosives-tainted truck, and give the media a reason to return to the mantra of "all terror is caused by Muslims". But what started as a simply attempt to spin the news away from the Israelis arrested in Washington State has backfired on the Bush administration in a big way. In conducting the classic "limited hangout" of admitting to foreknowledge of the attacks of 9-11 in order to reassert the link to Osama bin Laden, Bush has handed opponents of his administration and opponents of World War the most damning proof yet that the reality of 9-11 is not what the US Government and media have been telling the American people it is.
The arrested Israelis posed a problem. History records in the Lavon Affair that Israelis willingly use bombs and lay false trails to Arabs for political gain. And it wasn't too long ago that JDL Chairman Irv Rubin was arrested for plotting to blow up a US Congressman who refused to toe the Israel party line. Then there were the two Mossad agents arrested inside the Mexican Congress with guns and explosives shortly after 9-11. As the battered World Trade Towers collapsed, the very first suspects arrested, caught cheering as the towers fell, were Israelis, later identified as Mossad agents. The arrested spies worked for Urban Moving Systems, whose Israeli owner promptly fled the nation.

http://www.rense.com/general17/mossadagentsarrested.htm

In the end, three Israeli companies with deep penetration of the American communications infrastructure were implicated in the phone and internet tapping scandal. One of these companies, Odigo, had an office near the World Trade Towers, and received a two hour advance warning of the impending attack. Two hours means the warning was sent before the planes that eventually crashed into the World Trade Towers had even left the ground on their final flights! Someone knew of the plan, someone who decided they needed to warn Israelis working for a company linked to Israel's spying operation.

Taken together, there is probable cause to investigate just what connection the Israeli spying operation had with 9-11. Such an investigation should have happened, but instead, something very odd took place in the investigation! According to a government official quoted in Carl Cameron's story on the spy ring, the US Government classified the evidence that links the arrested Israeli spies to 9-11. Rather than treat the arrested spies as Jonathan Pollard had been treated, the US Government hurried to get the arrested Israelis out of the country as quickly as possible, in one case releasing and deporting one Israeli even though he failed his polygraph examination! Pollard had been just one spy. Here was the largest spy ring ever uncovered in the United States and the United States itself was trying to cover it all up! The media went along by downplaying the Rubin story, ignoring the Mexican incident and actually spiking Carl Cameron's four part story on the spy ring.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Mid..._detained.html

As quiet as the media was about the evidence pointing towards Israeli involvement in 9-11, the media was quite the opposite when it came to claims of proof linking ex CIA agent Osama bin Laden with the crimes. The reason was obvious. Long before the attacks on the World Trade Towers the United States had been planning for a war in Afghanistan to create a climate more favorable for American oil companies. John Marcesca, as part of a UNOCAL working group on the Afghanistan pipeline project, had gone before Congress and stressed the necessity of replacing the Afghanistan government before a pipeline from the Caspian sea to the gulf of India could be built. The Bush White House admits that a plan to attack Afghanistan existed BEFORE 9-11. Following 9-11, the US did replace the government of Afghanistan, and the pipeline is under construction. One member of the UNOCAL working group, Hamid Karzai, is the President of the new government in Afghanistan. Another UNOCAL group member, Zalmay Khalilzad, is the US special envoy to Afghanistan. A cozy relationship to be sure!

http://www.janes.com/security/intern...0315_1_n.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1550366.stm
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Old 12-30-2004, 03:02 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by got2skigrl
look in a history book dude it happened it will ahppen again and america is no worse for it
That doesn't make it right. It will continue as long as we have people that will accept it and not stand up against it.
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Old 12-30-2004, 03:03 PM   #27 (permalink)
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dude youu mean to tell me that because of 1 guy we should just ignore the all of the true terrorist this thing has helped catch, right or wrong you elected the people to pass it. 2/3 of the senate think this is whats best for our country. and yes im sorry if i believe in what has been so great for over so long- this happens in times of war to protect people, im sure you would be complainin just the same if we didnt do anthing to stop the terrorist and they kept killin, well this is the government workin for you not against you.... has this passing of the law affected you in one way? have you been arrested or your privacy invaded? or are you complainin about something that has happened to 1 out of 250 million people
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Old 12-30-2004, 03:04 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by got2skigrl
i knnow what the constitution says but it also has provisions for times of war
No it does not!

Here is the Bill of Rights:

http://www.archives.gov/national_arc...ranscript.html
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Old 12-30-2004, 03:17 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by got2skigrl
dude oyu mean to tell me that because of 1 guy we should just ignore the all of the true terrorist this thing has helped catch, right or wrong you elected the people to pass it because 2/3 of the senate think this is whats best for our country and yes im sorry if i believe in what has been so great for over so long- this happens in times of war to protect people, im sure you would be complainin just the same if we didnt do anthing to stop the terrorist and they kept killin, well this is the government workin for you not against you.... has this passing of the law affected you in one way? have you been arrested or your privacy invaded? or are you complainin about something that has happened to 1 out of 250 million people
When that guy is a US citizen and his rights are being trampled on, you bet!

You know who can protect you the best? YOU! You are the first line of defense. You are the one on the streets, driving to work, noticing things. We do not need "Big Brother" watching out every move. Nowadays, everyone wants big brother in their lives. That is opening up a can of worms that you will not be able to shut.

BTW: If you read the USA Patriot Act, there is NO provision that says it may be used only in a time of war.

When has the government ever actually done something for the citizens when it wasn't in their own best interests or have something to gain?

You will have to excuse my strong feelings on the matter. Us Libertarians have very strong views on the Constitution. We support it and believe in what it stands for.

If you really wanna fight terrorism, instead of these "bogus" search and arrest powers, how about closing our "Swiss Cheese" border with Mexico. That would do more for the war on terrorism than anything else.

Yes it has affected me. Now because of the USAPA, the US Government can at will, confiscate my financial records from my bank without a warrant. Whenever you open a new bank account, if you read the fine print you will see the USAPA clause. For starters, it's no one's business how much money I have. That's my private affairs. What about the US Transportation Security Administration running a criminal/credit check everytime I board an airline? The criminal/INTERPOL check I can handle, but a credit check?

People that sit back on this and accept it as a price to pay for the war on terrorism is making a big mistake. With all of this going on, have you noticed now all of the cameras everywhere?
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Old 12-30-2004, 03:25 PM   #30 (permalink)
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i know the constitution/bill of rights does not specifically say we can pass this act.... but what you are forgetting is that law is ever changing. once lincoln passed a n act sayin we can invade private property ect. then it becomes possible for any president and the congress and senate of his time to pass a similar law until a new act or law is set stating that this is infact unlawful.

so yes you are right the government does not state in the constitution that this law is passes, but laws and judgements are based on past laws and judgements, and according to american law, this act is allowed to be passed by government
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