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Old 02-18-2009, 03:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by D^3 View Post
Pro-style QB's just "hand the ball off?" Do you really think that or did it just make your comment sound better? Pro-style QB's make the play call based on the defense they read at the line of scrimmage. A pro-style QB makes WAY more reads than a spread QB does. You are generally pretty reasonable in most of your posts, but that one is just way off the mark.
They both make a lot of reads. I don't think you could argue one over the other. The fact is spread quarterbacks read the defense before the ball is snapped as well. GH just was saying that they make reads on options plays in addition to passing ones. If a prostyle quarterback does audible to a draw, then they do just simply hand the ball off.
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:58 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nellanaesp View Post
The traditional style of NFL is why I don't like watching it that much. It's just... boring to me. I like seeing all the different types of offenses and the different types of formations some of these coaches come up with.

To me football is the traditional style. I don't like the unorthodox stuff. Spread offenses remind me of flag football and I think its gay. Line up and run it like men. If you have to shovel pass and lateral to get yards then you should be playing rugby. And a wide receiver should be able to do more than just run fast. They should be football players, able to block and hit. Guys like Hines Ward, or Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc.... furthermore, that business where the whole offense stands up and looks to the sideline is absurd, and to me takes too much of the game out of the players hands.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:01 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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I hate this kind of crap from Theisman. He lumps the read-option/QB running wrinkles in with the larger notion of "THE SPREAD."

No, running QBs---as a targeted and specific part of the offensive design---will not become a feature in the NFL....but that's not what THE SPREAD is. It is an offensive philosophy...not a scheme.

Going "under center" is actually a liability for QBs in many ways:

1. You can't throw during your drop, which means someone has to be open when (and only when) you come out of the drop and set your feet. You can't throw it sooner (unless it's a screen or shallow drag), and if you wait, you're sacked.

2. The drop gives good DLs time to get to you. If you only have 2.5 seconds to get rid of the ball, why waste 1.2 seconds in a seven-step drop? Out of the gun, dropping is optional (see Chase Daniel), but it is certainly not necessary.

3. During play-action, you have to turn your back and lose track of the defensive movement...forcing you to re-read the entire defense (at full speed) with a very minimal amount of time to get set, stabilize, and realease the ball with accuracy. PA out of the gun (not so much the Pistol) allows you to continue reading the coverage through the PA fake. It's also easier to set your feet post-PA and get into position to throw the football.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gatoraus View Post
They both make a lot of reads. I don't think you could argue one over the other. The fact is spread quarterbacks read the defense before the ball is snapped as well. GH just was saying that they make reads on options plays in addition to passing ones. If a prostyle quarterback does audible to a draw, then they do just simply hand the ball off.


Yes, you can argue it. All you have to do is watch the two different kinds operate. The spread QB will look to the sideline, get the call, and then snap the ball out of the shotgun. Watching a pro-style QB line up under center, the complexity of what he does in comparison to a spread QB is obvious.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GatorNation View Post
I hate this kind of crap from Theisman. He lumps the read-option/QB running wrinkles in with the larger notion of "THE SPREAD."

No, running QBs---as a targeted and specific part of the offensive design---will not become a feature in the NFL....but that's not what THE SPREAD is. It is an offensive philosophy...not a scheme.

Going "under center" is actually a liability for QBs in many ways:

1. You can't throw during your drop, which means someone has to be open when (and only when) you come out of the drop and set your feet. You can't throw it sooner (unless it's a screen or shallow drag), and if you wait, you're sacked.

2. The drop gives good DLs time to get to you. If you only have 2.5 seconds to get rid of the ball, why waste 1.2 seconds in a seven-step drop? Out of the gun, dropping is optional (see Chase Daniel), but it is certainly not necessary.

3. During play-action, you have to turn your back and lose track of the defensive movement...forcing you to re-read the entire defense (at full speed) with a very minimal amount of time to get set, stabilize, and realease the ball with accuracy. PA out of the gun (not so much the Pistol) allows you to continue reading the coverage through the PA fake. It's also easier to set your feet post-PA and get into position to throw the football.



You can pick on the I-form all you want, but it has always been and will remain the cornerstone of the NFL offense, and that is what Theismann is addressing.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:06 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GatorNation View Post
I hate this kind of crap from Theisman. He lumps the read-option/QB running wrinkles in with the larger notion of "THE SPREAD."

No, running QBs---as a targeted and specific part of the offensive design---will not become a feature in the NFL....but that's not what THE SPREAD is. It is an offensive philosophy...not a scheme.

Going "under center" is actually a liability for QBs in many ways:

1. You can't throw during your drop, which means someone has to be open when (and only when) you come out of the drop and set your feet. You can't throw it sooner (unless it's a screen or shallow drag), and if you wait, you're sacked.

2. The drop gives good DLs time to get to you. If you only have 2.5 seconds to get rid of the ball, why waste 1.2 seconds in a seven-step drop? Out of the gun, dropping is optional (see Chase Daniel), but it is certainly not necessary.

3. During play-action, you have to turn your back and lose track of the defensive movement...forcing you to re-read the entire defense (at full speed) with a very minimal amount of time to get set, stabilize, and realease the ball with accuracy. PA out of the gun (not so much the Pistol) allows you to continue reading the coverage through the PA fake. It's also easier to set your feet post-PA and get into position to throw the football.
all of that is exactly why he is saying that the spread does not prepare a QB for the next level because at the next level you have to be able to do all of those things and be able to do it at a high level.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:10 PM   #22 (permalink)
 
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You need a power run game in the pros. You can't simply grab better players and spread people out. There are too many great athletes in the NFL. The weather across the country varies widely and you don't have the luxury of playing nearly all of your games in tropical weather. While you can introduce elements of the spread to keep people off balance, I don't think it will ever become anywhere close to typical in the NFL.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:11 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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You need a power run game in the pros. You can't simply grab better players and spread people out. There are too many great athletes in the NFL. The weather across the country varies widely and you don't have the luxury of playing nearly all of your games in tropical weather. While you can introduce elements of the spread to keep people off balance, I don't think it will ever become anywhere close to typical in the NFL.
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all of that is exactly why he is saying that the spread does not prepare a QB for the next level because at the next level you have to be able to do all of those things and be able to do it at a high level.
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Originally Posted by D^3 View Post
You can pick on the I-form all you want, but it has always been and will remain the cornerstone of the NFL offense, and that is what Theismann is addressing.
I don't necessarily disagree with what you guys are saying, but I'll respond with my opinions anyway...

I'll go down the list here:

I. I am convinced that you can run power out of the gun, especially out of the offset formations. It takes some tweaking, but it can be done. It may be that NFL teams don't commit to it or spend enough time with it to make it as successful as it could be, but I don't believe that a hand-off directed off-tackle from eight yards behind the LOS is the only (or best) way to run the football. I see many NFL teams use big sets and run into 9- and 10-man boxes for a 2-yard gain (if it's not a loss). I just don't see how that's very effective...getting men out of the box should be the goal, especially when the athletes are so good at that level.

I see two major problems with running out of the gun:

(1) You don't get a "running head start" before the QB/HB exchange...so the HB isn't up to "full speed." But if you have a back with above-average acceleration (and how many starting NFL QBs don't?), it shouldn't be an deal-breaker.

(2) The formation "gives away" the direction of the run, if a running play is called. The delivery of the exchange, however, can change the target hole. I teach my QBs to open their stance a little bit (by dropping the inside foot) to facilitate a dive to the formation side. You don't have to cross the A/B-gap axis on a dive call. You can also build in quick counters to the same side. In fact, the HB may, in many cases, get to the LOS faster than a back out of traditional formations. What you lose in top-end speed at the LOS you can gain by reducing the amount of reaction time given to the defense.

Weather also plays a factor in any system. Wind or rain affects Peyton Manning's game the same way it would a spread passing system. But many NFL teams play under a dome with controlled climates these days...for the expressed purpose of taking the elements OUT of the equation. Imo, weather is much more of an issue in college than it is in the NFL.

II. I'm saying that those "things" that the NFL QBs have to do might possibly be improved by a spread system that ameliorates that difficulty. "Spread" QBs are struggling in the NFL not because they aren't talented enough or smart enough but because the mechanisms they've used to address the problem of reads and such are completely different...not necessarily "inferior." Theisman wants to attribute that to the inferiority of the "spread" system, but that's BS. Forcing anyone into a system with which they're not familiar will create difficulties and generate a learning curve; pro-style-to-spread will be just as difficult (or maybe even less so considering the benefits I've discussed).

III. I'm not picking on the I-form, necessarily....we can substitute any of the "NFL" packages: the pro-set, the weak- and strong sets, or even the ace packages. It's the same philosophy.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:36 PM   #24 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by D^3 View Post
Pro-style QB's just "hand the ball off?" Do you really think that or did it just make your comment sound better? Pro-style QB's make the play call based on the defense they read at the line of scrimmage. A pro-style QB makes WAY more reads than a spread QB does. You are generally pretty reasonable in most of your posts, but that one is just way off the mark.
Just going on my experience. My little brother's HS team (I know it's HS, but still) has a good coach. He's young and was actually a grad assistant under Spurrier way back when...anyway, he and I were talking and he stated that he wanted to put a SO offense in, but the QB wasn't capable of making the reads...so, they run a basic pro-style. I agree that the plays are called in from the sideline...but the "beauty" of the SO that Tebow runs is he can change the play after the snap of the ball...he may choose to hand it off or run depending on the DL...or, if it's a pass...he has to make the same reads that a pro-style QB has to make. Another thing...most plays in college are called in from the sideline...nearly every team I watched this past season was looking to the sideline during plays to get audibles...including UGA.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:43 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Just going on my experience. My little brother's HS team (I know it's HS, but still) has a good coach. He's young and was actually a grad assistant under Spurrier way back when...anyway, he and I were talking and he stated that he wanted to put a SO offense in, but the QB wasn't capable of making the reads...so, they run a basic pro-style. I agree that the plays are called in from the sideline...but the "beauty" of the SO that Tebow runs is he can change the play after the snap of the ball...he may choose to hand it off or run depending on the DL...or, if it's a pass...he has to make the same reads that a pro-style QB has to make. Another thing...most plays in college are called in from the sideline...nearly every team I watched this past season was looking to the sideline during plays to get audibles...including UGA.

Stafford called the plays at the LOS on nearly 70% of the offensive plays, according to CMR. He had a set to choose from, but selected one based on the defense he was reading.

You think differently, but I don't think that the option of taking off and running because you can't find an open receiver is a positive for a QB. That isn't making a read, that is giving up and running instead. That works in college, but will never work in the NFL when a Ray Lewis is there to put you in the hospital for such an attempt.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:18 PM   #26 (permalink)
 
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Stafford called the plays at the LOS on nearly 70% of the offensive plays, according to CMR. He had a set to choose from, but selected one based on the defense he was reading.

You think differently, but I don't think that the option of taking off and running because you can't find an open receiver is a positive for a QB. That isn't making a read, that is giving up and running instead. That works in college, but will never work in the NFL when a Ray Lewis is there to put you in the hospital for such an attempt.
The ability to scramble is a plus in the NFL, however. Look...not saying that the SO would work in the NFL...not even saying Tebow will ever amount to anything in the NFL...I just think he has the ability to.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:48 PM   #27 (permalink)
 
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How many snaps did Tebow take from under center this past season? It was in the single digits wasn't it?
I want to say six. Six snaps from center.

Concerning the article, this is exactly what we've been telling you Gator homers. Alex Smith, the whole deal. But I see the tune has changed now, now you don't care about his pro career. I see what you guys are doing there.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:50 PM   #28 (permalink)
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You know how we fix this right? We take out the defenses and start running the spread in the NFL!



I would have to say, it would make watching pro football a whole lot more fun.





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Old 02-18-2009, 09:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GatorHunter View Post
The ability to scramble is a plus in the NFL, however. Look...not saying that the SO would work in the NFL...not even saying Tebow will ever amount to anything in the NFL...I just think he has the ability to.
The kid is a winner and should find a way to transfer that to the NFL. The only real problem I see is can he change his mechanics and learn a new offense to succeed in the NFL? I have heard that he has ran the same offense basically from high school straight to college. So the extra year at UF is only going to prolong the changes he will need to learn to make it at the next level. Yeah I heard that Meyer is bringing in another coach specifically to help Tebow get better under center but we all know if he doesn't win games Meyer doesn't look good so I don't expect to see tebow under center this year unless UF is up on some high school team by 50 and Meyer calls an under center play to try and get tebow some UC reps and run up the score.

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Old 02-18-2009, 09:59 PM   #30 (permalink)
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This fact wasn't lost on Aaron Murray either, imho.
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