Obama's pastor isn't going to like this

[crawfish]

Obama tries to allay Jewish concerns (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_el_pr/obama_jewish_voters;_ylt=AlVrXqGOu7LAiHzK9sPJSRob. 3QA)

Introduction from article . . .
Barack Obama has a solid Senate record in support of Israel. He sings the praises, too, of Jewish civil rights workers who fought for blacks' rights in the U.S. And he says he wants to patch up "a historically powerful bond between the African-American and Jewish communities." Yet there is unease among some Jewish voters about the Illinois senator and Democratic presidential contender.

Why?

Part of it is a division between blacks and Jews that's been growing for years, a split that Obama has challenged fellow blacks to confront. Another element is the praise Obama has received from Black Muslim leader Louis Farrakhan, whose disparaging comments about Judaism are toxic to many voters. Obama's own pastor has a history of supporting Palestinian causes. And there are questions about Obama advisers who some U.S. Jews see as less than ardent advocates of Israel.

Jews have accounted for about 4 percent of Democratic primary voters so far this year, and Clinton has held a 52-46 percent edge over Obama among them, according to exit polls.

Pastor's hellfire sermons put Obama's campaign in hot water (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/14/barackobama.hillaryclinton?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews)

Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11 (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4443788&page=1)

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Blotter/Obama_wright_080312_ms.jpg

[GeauxTo]

Ooops! Sorry, crawfish... I didn't see your thread until I posted. Oh well, a double dose of Obama's nefarious religious linkage won't hurt!

[GamecockDieHard]

This "pastor" is Louis Farrakhan's soul mate.

Let's just look at one of the stupid things he said:
Indicting the entire white American race for a conspiracy to commit genocide on black America through purposeful infection with HIV, "requires the willing suspension of disbelief."
If he was only talking about certain powerful white Americans and he has undeniable proof, I will donate to Dog the Bounty Hunter to track them down and pay for the electricity to execute them. But he doesn't seem to discern any difference from one whitey to another whitey. He also doesn't work from proof or facts, he works from hysteria and fear.

He isn't a pastor, he's a merchant. He's not preaching, he's selling. He's found a market (hopefully, not a large one) that buys the vitriol and hatred that he spews. He's made a living off of it. Obama alone gave the church over $20,000 in 2006. Unfortunately, it's an easy sell to some. Obama's been buying it for 20 years and all he can say about this torrid rhetoric is that he is against any and all divisive comments. Apparently that includes comments criticizing his pastor for his comments.

There is so much wrong with Obama as leader of our country it's hard to begin. What about his relationship with Rezko and the Iraqi billionaire that has fueled his political career? How is it that it's perfectly fine for Obama to have a integral relationship with this church of racism and hate and not be affected by it? This would be alot like McCain belonging to the Klan for 20 years and saying, he disagrees with some of the rhetoric and abhors divisiveness.

Like I heard today, if Obama is so full of hope and unity and love ad nauseum....how is it that no one around him is happy or hopeful or unified or can show love despite the color of skin? His church hates whites and America, his wife is proud of her country for the first time in her life! He certainly hasn't done a very good job with his inner circle, but we're expected to believe him when he says he can reunite the world!!

[timNem]

This "pastor" is Louis Farrakhan's soul mate.

Let's just look at one of the stupid things he said:
Indicting the entire white American race for a conspiracy to commit genocide on black America through purposeful infection with HIV, "requires the willing suspension of disbelief."
If he was only talking about certain powerful white Americans and he has undeniable proof, I will donate to Dog the Bounty Hunter to track them down and pay for the electricity to execute them. But he doesn't seem to discern any difference from one whitey to another whitey. He also doesn't work from proof or facts, he works from hysteria and fear.

He isn't a pastor, he's a merchant. He's not preaching, he's selling. He's found a market (hopefully, not a large one) that buys the vitriol and hatred that he spews. He's made a living off of it. Obama alone gave the church over $20,000 in 2006. Unfortunately, it's an easy sell to some. Obama's been buying it for 20 years and all he can say about this torrid rhetoric is that he is against any and all divisive comments. Apparently that includes comments criticizing his pastor for his comments.

There is so much wrong with Obama as leader of our country it's hard to begin. What about his relationship with Rezko and the Iraqi billionaire that has fueled his political career? How is it that it's perfectly fine for Obama to have a integral relationship with this church of racism and hate and not be affected by it? This would be alot like McCain belonging to the Klan for 20 years and saying, he disagrees with some of the rhetoric and abhors divisiveness.

Like I heard today, if Obama is so full of hope and unity and love ad nauseum....how is it that no one around him is happy or hopeful or unified or can show love despite the color of skin? His church hates whites and America, his wife is proud of her country for the first time in her life! He certainly hasn't done a very good job with his inner circle, but we're expected to believe him when he says he can reunite the world!!

you hit the nail on the head.

[WarEagle73]

The fact that this guy gets more than 3 votes in any primary or caucus is a testament to the rampant stupidity that has swept over this nation for the last 50 years. It started with the rise of the "New Left" movement in the 1960 and now we see it come to it's full maturity signaled by the popularity for Obama. He refuses to salute the flag during the National Anthem and people shrug it off. He belongs to a "church" (I use the term very loosely in this context) that has this idiot spouting nothing but hate towards white people and America in general and still he just keeps rolling along.

As I frequently do in my posts, I will refer the reader to examine the lessons that history provides us in situations such as those that we find ourselves in today. I see parallels in our country's current electoral situation and those found in Germany during the waning days of the Weimar Republic just before the accession to power of Adolf Hitler. There was a huge portion of the German public that was very dissatisfied with the apparent lack of effectiveness from the Weimar Republic. Many looked to the very charismatic Hitler as the answer to their problems. He enthralled thousands with his stirring speeches just as Obama does today. However, just as the Germans of the early 1930's ignored all the blatant warning signs that Hitler would lead their county to ruin, many in America are repeating this same mistake today. Hitler spelled out his plans in minute detail in his book "Mine Kampf". It was even a best seller in Germany! Yet, the German people still put Hitler in power through a democratic election. They ignored the fact that he had plans that could only end in disaster and focused instead on the considerable oratory skills that allowed him to hold one of the most advanced country's in the world completely in sway. Will we American's ignore the obvious warning signs that are everywhere about Obama just as the German's did with Hitler?

BTW - Before any Obama supporters come on here to blast me for comparing Obama to Hitler, you need not waist your time. Obama is not like Hitler in that he has no plans for subjugating a continent nor does he plan on the eradication of any particular race of people. However, much as Hitler's regime steered Germany to ultimate ruin, Obama would do the same here in America.

[Tator]

If Obama's pastor was white, he would fit right in with the David Duke crowd...

These types are all the same, no matter what the color of their skin. They are ignorant, vile and are a cancer within the body of this country. If this guy and others like him hate America SOOO much, what is stopping them from getting the F*ck out of the country? Absolutely nothing, that's what's stopping them, but they never leave do they? NOOOoooOOO, they never seem to get THAT fed up do they? They want to speak out against the "Great Satan", yet they seem to have no problem dining at his table, accepting his protection, and the other benefits he offers. I guess when your mind is that clouded by ignorant hate, there exists no level of hypocrasy that you won't accept.

[GamecockDieHard]

Think about it: This past week, Hillary had the "audacity" to suggest that Obama may be a suitable VP running mate. Everyone was amazed by the comment given the fact that she was behind him in all aspects of the nomination. The self-righteous Obama even mocked her offer. I believe it was her last attempt at bringing the party together before she unleashed the tapes of his pastor. She has taken off the gloves and this is the result.

Obama has now come out with a long repudiation of his pastor's remarks. All of his statements in that repudiation are laughable if not for their fear factor. She will destroy his political career if she hasn't already. Some may deny that it was her that did this, but it's just too coincidental that it all hit the fan right after her appeal to him to be her VP. He's done, imo, and rightfully so.

Again, I point to Michelle Obama's remarks that "this is the first time that she is proud of her country." That's the glue that sticks the racist pastor's remarks to Obama.

I'd love to hear the Obama supporters explain this away. One great thing about his statement today is that the liberal scumbag media that have not reported on this issue, will now be forced to do so. That will have to include the clips of the racist pastor and all the connections he's had with Obama. This will also lead to more scrutiny of his associations with Rezko and the Iraqi billionaire that funded much of his meteoric rise. No more hiding. You can't call racism and not have it turn on you if you're a racist yourself.

[crawfish]

I think more and more Americans are getting tired of playing the "politically correct" game that is being forced down our throats that has said that we can't comment on stuff like this.

[crawfish]

But will it be too late now? Of course, the AP media is pro-Obama in just about all their articles it seems, but here's his quotes attempting to denounce his pastor's remarks.

Obama denounces pastor's 9/11 comments (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_el_pr/obama_pastor_2)

WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Friday denounced inflammatory remarks from his pastor, who has railed against the United States and accused its leaders of bringing on the Sept. 11 attacks by spreading terrorism. As video of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright has widely aired on television and the Internet, Obama responded by posting a blog about his relationship with Wright and his church, Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ, on the Huffington Post.

Obama wrote that he's looked to Wright for spiritual advice, not political guidance, and he's been pained and angered to learn of some of his pastor's comments for which he had not been present. Obama's statement did not say whether Wright would remain on his African American Religious Leadership Committee, and campaign officials wouldn't say either. "I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies," Obama said. "I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Reverend Wright that are at issue."

In a sermon on the Sunday after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, Wright suggested the United States brought on the attacks. "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," Wright said. "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

In a 2003 sermon, he said blacks should condemn the United States. "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

He also gave a sermon in December comparing Obama to Jesus, promoting his candidacy and playing down Clinton. Questions about Obama's religious beliefs have dogged him throughout his candidacy. He's had to fight against false Internet rumors suggesting he's really a Muslim intent on destroying the United States, and now his pastor's words uttered nearly seven years ago have become an issue.

Obama wrote on the Huffington Post that he never heard Wright say any of the statements that are "so contrary to my own life and beliefs," but they have raised legitimate questions about the nature of his relationship with the pastor and the church. He explained that he joined Wright's church, Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, nearly 20 years ago. He said he knew Wright as a former Marine and respected biblical scholar who lectured at seminaries across the country. "Reverend Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life," he wrote. "... And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn."

He said Wright's controversial statements first came to his attention at the beginning of his presidential campaign last year, and he condemned them. Because of his ties to the 6,000-member congregation church — he and his wife were married there and their daughters baptized — Obama decided not to leave the church. Obama also has credited Wright with delivering a sermon that he adopted as the title of his book, "The Audacity of Hope." Read more of article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_el_pr/obama_pastor_2)

[zartan]

this thread evokes a big 'so what' from me. mccain has accepted the endorsement of john hagee, head of Global Evangelism TV, who has a long history of saying anti-catholic and anti-jewish statements.

every politician can be connected to a nutball if you try hard enough. it won't change a thing in the election. the people who would be frightened away from obama or mccain by the procalmations of their supporters were never going to vote for them anyway.

[GamecockDieHard]

I think more and more Americans are getting tired of playing the "politically correct" game that is being forced down our throats that has said that we can't comment on stuff like this.

Agreed. And let's all be honest. This kind of hatred only makes racism in America much much worse. But the arbiters of this venom depend on that divide for their living. Wright is like Farrakhan is like Jesse Jackson is like Sharpton is like most of the democrat party that depend on the wrecked lives of the "underclass" to continue voting for them.

It's just amazing to me how some will follow that party, despite it all. No one is absolutely right but those on the left are going to kill any ability for true progress, because we won't have a country left, if they win.

Those that refuse to enter the debate are sheep waiting for the winner to decide their fate. I won't lie down or step aside for anyone that believes our country isn't the best alternative in the world.

[AUChamps]

Obama is a great brainwasher. When's the last time we had a president that could truly "brainwash" a segment of the population and galvanize them toward his agenda(even if it may be in contrary to what our nation's values have been). Obama's no Hitler or Jim Jones, and we're damn lucky he's not either because someone with mad skills like him could brainwash a large segment of the population.

[zartan]

well, GWB and his cronies convinced the country to go to war under false premises. how's that?

[timNem]

this thread evokes a big 'so what' from me. mccain has accepted the endorsement of john hagee, head of Global Evangelism TV, who has a long history of saying anti-catholic and anti-jewish statements.

every politician can be connected to a nutball if you try hard enough. it won't change a thing in the election. the people who would be frightened away from obama or mccain by the procalmations of their supporters were never going to vote for them anyway.
What exactly did John Hagee say?

[bigsexxxy]

Obama is a great brainwasher. When's the last time we had a president that could truly "brainwash" a segment of the population and galvanize them toward his agenda(even if it may be in contrary to what our nation's values have been). Obama's no Hitler or Jim Jones, and we're damn lucky he's not either because someone with mad skills like him could brainwash a large segment of the population.


What are you talking about in the bolded part AUChamps? There's a ton of people in this country who knew nothing about W and still voted for the guy not once, but twice. The guy just said "Compassionate Conservative" over and over and all the conservatives jumped through hoops to vote for him, even though it was decidedly against many of those same voters economic interests.

[GeauxTo]

this thread evokes a big 'so what' from me. mccain has accepted the endorsement of john hagee, head of Global Evangelism TV, who has a long history of saying anti-catholic and anti-jewish statements.

every politician can be connected to a nutball if you try hard enough. it won't change a thing in the election. the people who would be frightened away from obama or mccain by the procalmations of their supporters were never going to vote for them anyway.

What koolaid have you been drinking? Hagee is a close ally of Judaism. You should know some stuff before you spout off.

[thethrill]

Wow, this "pastor" makes Sharpton and Jackson seem almost reasonable by comparison. I think this certainly raises some big red flags on Obama's judgement and associations. How can you be a member and give money to a church led by this guy for 20 years?

I wonder if this "pastor" realizes that alot of "GD" Americans fought and died to give him the right to get up and spout his ignorant racist crap. He sure doesn't mind using that freedom of speech does he?

It took Obama too long to denounce what this idiot said and it seriously hurts his chances at the presidency. I'm sure his diehards will support him no matter what, but any independents still undecided have probably just decided.

[GamecockDieHard]

well, GWB and his cronies convinced the country to go to war under false premises. how's that?
That's your opinion, which is wrong, imo. This thread is based on the guy's own words, not ours. Try addressing the issue at hand. But I know that's hard for liberals. Gore and Clinton and Congress and many dems agreed that Hussein had WMD's. And who's to say he didn't send what he had to Syria before the invasion? Sadaam played a bluff that we couldn't risk. But you've got all the answers. Pray to God no one takes that kind of chance with our security.

How may times did they hit us with Clinton in power? How many times have they hit us with Bush? They'll celebrate if the Dems get the White House back and we'll go back to "acceptable losses." Carter let our people rot for over 400 days until a republican with balls came in and they realized they wouldn't get away with it. How stupid can you be? Considerably...obviously.

[bigsexxxy]

That's your opinion, which is wrong, imo. This thread is based on the guy's own words, not ours. Try addressing the issue at hand. But I know that's hard for liberals. Gore and Clinton and Congress and many dems agreed that Hussein had WMD's. And who's to say he didn't send what he had to Syria before the invasion? Sadaam played a bluff that we couldn't risk. But you've got all the answers. Pray to God no one takes that kind of chance with our security.

How may times did they hit us with Clinton in power? How many times have they hit us with Bush? They'll celebrate if the Dems get the White House back and we'll go back to "acceptable losses." Carter let our people rot for over 400 days until a republican with balls came in and they realized they wouldn't get away with it. How stupid can you be? Considerably...obviously.

Who knows? You're the one who's still trying to say that we went to war under the right pretenses when it was obvious the White House was lying all along. I think you just lost your right to call anybody stupid there.

[GamecockDieHard]

Who knows? You're the one who's still trying to say that we went to war under the right pretenses when it was obvious the White House was lying all along. I think you just lost your right to call anybody stupid there.

There's nothing obvious about that except in your mind. They didn't obviously lie unless you're listening to moveon.org, which is possible. I reserve the right to call anyone stupid. It's my opinion. You've got yours, which I pray is the minority. I won't deny you the right. The sad part is, your taking up for people who accuse America of training "professional assassins." I prefer to call them the military that protects my freedom which includes being able to voice my opinion.

[bigsexxxy]

There's nothing obvious about that except in your mind. They didn't obviously lie unless you're listening to moveon.org, which is possible. I reserve the right to call anyone stupid. It's my opinion. You've got yours, which I pray is the minority. I won't deny you the right. The sad part is, your taking up for people who accuse America of training "professional assassins." I prefer to call them the military that protects my freedom which includes being able to voice my opinion.

It's pretty obvious now that there was either lying going on or crappy intelligence. Take your pick. Here's a link to the Center for Public Integrity: False Pretenses (http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/).

I'm not taking up for anybody and I really don't know what you're talking about there, would you be referring to MoveOn? Because I listen to those guys about as much as I listen to James Dobson and the far-right loonies, which is not very much.

[AUChamps]

What are you talking about in the bolded part AUChamps? There's a ton of people in this country who knew nothing about W and still voted for the guy not once, but twice. The guy just said "Compassionate Conservative" over and over and all the conservatives jumped through hoops to vote for him, even though it was decidedly against many of those same voters economic interests.
I knew W would be tossed out there. I love how everyone thought before 9/11 that he was a dip and inept, and then post-9/11 he's seen as some evil mastermind. He's just a folksy guy that was a little too cocky for his own good. He's not stupid and he's not a genius either. Frankly I look at him as the most "everyday" guy we've had as president in a while. You can't call it both ways.

[GamecockDieHard]

How many times were we hit with Carter and Clinton, and how many times were we hit with Reagan, Bush, and Bush? Figure that out and maybe you'll get a clue, but I doubt it. Peace through strength. Any other way that's proven, I'll support.

[bigsexxxy]

How many times were we hit with Carter and Clinton, and how many times were we hit with Reagan, Bush, and Bush? Figure that out and maybe you'll get a clue, but I doubt it. Peace through strength. Any other way that's proven, I'll support.

9/11 was the biggest loss of life caused by a foreign entity in American history and it happened on George W. Bush's watch. There goes that argument.

[AUChamps]

9/11 was the biggest loss of life caused by a foreign entity in American history and it happened on George W. Bush's watch. There goes that argument.
How about it wasn't Bush's fault. It was Bin Laden's fault. Just like OKC wasn't Clinton's fault, it was McVeigh's fault. Or WTC '93. Not Clinton's fault, it was the Blind Cleric's fault. Iran Hostage Crisis? Not Carter's fault, it was the Iranian Revolutionaries.

[GamecockDieHard]

9/11 was the biggest loss of life caused by a foreign entity in American history and it happened on George W. Bush's watch. There goes that argument.

It was a test that radical islam attempted and failed and, probably, wished they'd never undertaken. To blame Bush shows the intellectual dishonesty indicative of the left. This was done because Clinton never seriously countered any of their attacks. They simply attempted to see if they could continue with the new administration. When Bush reacted as he did, even Osama said he was surprised by our response. The same may happen when the administration changes.

Bottom line: We are in a fight for the very soul of this country. We aren't perfect, we often make mistakes. The left seems to think that any faults on our side is a sweeping indictment of the entire system. I disagree. We make mistakes and always will, but we are correct in our principle cause. The left believes we are wrong on all fronts and, therefore, we should capitulate to all enemies. In fact, if they were honest, they would admit that they favor a world government that would dictate to all and end the sovereignty of the United States. That is insanity. Any peace that is in this world is due to America's strength. If we fall, many, many democracies will fall too. We do not take territories and haven't for many years. Emperialism involves taking over and making those territories their own. That hasn't happened in many years. It's just a farce to convince the ignorant. It appears to have worked with some.

I wish those on the left would just admit they hate America and it's history and admit that they believe what this idiot pastor has said. That's really what this is all about. If America agrees with him, I'd really like to know.

[gatorunvrsty]

I knew W would be tossed out there. I love how everyone thought before 9/11 that he was a dip and inept, and then post-9/11 he's seen as some evil mastermind. He's just a folksy guy that was a little too cocky for his own good. He's not stupid and he's not a genius either. Frankly I look at him as the most "everyday" guy we've had as president in a while. You can't call it both ways.

Oh no, everyone who thought he was a dip and inept before 911 still think he's a dip and inept. We just believe the other people in the room during the discussions concerning Iraq, who've come out and admitted that he had designs on Iraq before 911, and simply needed an excuse he could sell Americans. Cheney's the evil mastermind.:laugh: Are you kidding me... Bush can't even master the English language; we realize he couldn't have had anything to do with the actual logistics of the plan.

Hell, that's the only thing that kept Bush from getting his dumb a$$ impeached... everybody was afraid of the replacement.:unsure:

[AUChamps]

Oh no, everyone who thought he was a dip and inept before 911 still think he's a dip and inept. We just believe the other people in the room during the discussions concerning Iraq, who've come out and admitted that he had designs on Iraq before 911, and simply needed an excuse he could sell Americans. Cheney's the evil mastermind.:laugh: Are you kidding me... Bush can't even master the English language; we realize he couldn't have had anything to do with the actual logistics of the plan.

Hell, that's the only thing that kept Bush from getting his dumb a$$ impeached... everybody was afraid of the replacement.:unsure:
So then if that's the case, why hate the puppet when it's correct to hate the puppetmaster?

[azamugg]

regardless of my political idealogy I have given Obama the benefit of a doubt the last 2 months trying to listen to him through neutral ears considering the historical potential in this election and the sincere desire to put the best man in office..........but I must admit that these recent exposures are at least enough for me to no longer consider him for President of the United States

what amazes me here are the people who are intellectually incapable of compromising a position they have taken in light of evidence that is more than enough to de-consider a man for President of the United States.............mind you I didnt say Governor of Missouri, CEO of CocaCola, GM of Nabisco, but President of the United States of America...................people, don't allow yourself in the name of political dogma to be blindsided.........and if anything as a sportsfan look at Obama now from an "odds" angle and tell me you can't afford at this point to put your life savings on this bet

[GetEmGamecocks]

this thread evokes a big 'so what' from me. mccain has accepted the endorsement of john hagee, head of Global Evangelism TV, who has a long history of saying anti-catholic and anti-jewish statements.

every politician can be connected to a nutball if you try hard enough. it won't change a thing in the election. the people who would be frightened away from obama or mccain by the procalmations of their supporters were never going to vote for them anyway.

You stole the words outta my mouth. Every single politician who's ever made anything of themselves has at one point accepted money from a corrupt source. It's just a fact of life. I could give a crap less about Obama's pastor. Obama is not brainwashed by his pastor. The pastor is one man, Obama is another. I wouldn't expect Obama to leave the church because of the guy's opinions. After all, voicing your opinion is part of what America is supposed to be all about. And so what if he thinks the government had something to do with 9/11? If you think some bum-f-ck, rag-tag terrorist group did the attack all by themselves, you're the one hurting your country.

[GetEmGamecocks]

What koolaid have you been drinking? Hagee is a close ally of Judaism. You should know some stuff before you spout off.

Wrong. He's a close ally of Zionism, not Judaism. Many people consider him an enemy of Judaism with good reason.

[zartan]

It was a test that radical islam attempted and failed and, probably, wished they'd never undertaken. To blame Bush shows the intellectual dishonesty indicative of the left. This was done because Clinton never seriously countered any of their attacks. They simply attempted to see if they could continue with the new administration. When Bush reacted as he did, even Osama said he was surprised by our response. The same may happen when the administration changes.

Bottom line: We are in a fight for the very soul of this country. We aren't perfect, we often make mistakes. The left seems to think that any faults on our side is a sweeping indictment of the entire system. I disagree. We make mistakes and always will, but we are correct in our principle cause. The left believes we are wrong on all fronts and, therefore, we should capitulate to all enemies. In fact, if they were honest, they would admit that they favor a world government that would dictate to all and end the sovereignty of the United States. That is insanity. Any peace that is in this world is due to America's strength. If we fall, many, many democracies will fall too. We do not take territories and haven't for many years. Emperialism involves taking over and making those territories their own. That hasn't happened in many years. It's just a farce to convince the ignorant. It appears to have worked with some.

I wish those on the left would just admit they hate America and it's history and admit that they believe what this idiot pastor has said. That's really what this is all about. If America agrees with him, I'd really like to know.
that, frankly, is a bunch of horsecrap. you try to dismiss anyone who isn't in lock step with the W regime as a bunch of America-haters. let's see how patriotic you are if the dems win in '08. i bet you'll suddenly be much more interested in your right to dissent then.

[zartan]

What exactly did John Hagee say?
i don't have an exact quote but he has suggested that the jews brought their persecution upon themselves by their disobedience of God's law.

[WarEagle73]

that, frankly, is a bunch of horsecrap. you try to dismiss anyone who isn't in lock step with the W regime as a bunch of America-haters. let's see how patriotic you are if the dems win in '08. i bet you'll suddenly be much more interested in your right to dissent then.


Actually it isn't a "bunch of horse crap". The are a huge array of people around the world that want to kill you, me and every American they possibly can until this entire country is left in ruins. Their reasons have nothing to do with our foreign policy and they don't care of a Republican or Democrat is in the White House. The one singular reason they want to kills us is that we are not a Muslim country living under Shari'ah law and therefore in their eyes we are dogs and heathens deserving nothing more than being beheaded. Groups such as al-queda are not fighting for some political ideal or nationalistic movement. They are fighting to set up nothing short of a world wide caliphate based on 14th. century Islamic law. They want the entire world to become what Afghanistan was during the Talaban regime. You may not agree that we are in a life or death struggle for the very survival of Western civilization, but Bin Ladin and his ilk will beg to differ. On this matter I am not relying on any "propaganda" from President Bush or any right or left wing political organization on which to base my assertion. Look at Bin Ladin's and the other Islamic terrorist group's own words and you will see it is very clear what their plans for us are. At this point, we have two options. We can withdraw behind our borders under the false pretense that if we just leave them alone they will do the same for us. Or we can fight to destroy those that are trying their best to destroy us. That is the reality we find ourselves living in today, we ignore it at our own peril.

[bigsexxxy]

Actually it isn't a "bunch of horse crap". The are a huge array of people around the world that want to kill you, me and every American they possibly can until this entire country is left in ruins. Their reasons have nothing to do with our foreign policy and they don't care of a Republican or Democrat is in the White House. The one singular reason they want to kills us is that we are not a Muslim country living under Shari'ah law and therefore in their eyes we are dogs and heathens deserving nothing more than being beheaded. Groups such as al-queda are not fighting for some political ideal or nationalistic movement. They are fighting to set up nothing short of a world wide caliphate based on 14th. century Islamic law. They want the entire world to become what Afghanistan was during the Talaban regime. You may not agree that we are in a life or death struggle for the very survival of Western civilization, but Bin Ladin and his ilk will beg to differ. On this matter I am not relying on any "propaganda" from President Bush or any right or left wing political organization on which to base my assertion. Look at Bin Ladin's and the other Islamic terrorist group's own words and you will see it is very clear what their plans for us are. At this point, we have two options. We can withdraw behind our borders under the false pretense that if we just leave them alone they will do the same for us. Or we can fight to destroy those that are trying their best to destroy us. That is the reality we find ourselves living in today, we ignore it at our own peril.

Unfortunately, the Republican Party is just as ineffective at dealing with these people as the Democratic Party is, so you really have no leg to stand on in this instance.

We knew where Osama bin Laden was during the Clinton Admin, nothing was done. We knew where he was during the W Admin, yeah we went after him after 9/11, but guess what happened? We got bogged down in a stupid war in the wrong country.

Both parties are hitting 0-fer right now in this war.

[GeauxTo]

Wrong. He's a close ally of Zionism, not Judaism. Many people consider him an enemy of Judaism with good reason.

No, you're still wrong...

Quote from Hagee...

Pastor John Hagee, Founder of Christians United for Israel, teaches that love is not just something you talk about, but something that you do.

Link: A Night To Honor Israel (http://www.nighttohonorisrael.org/)

[UKat]

Wrong. He's a close ally of Zionism, not Judaism. Many people consider him an enemy of Judaism with good reason.Nope, your wrong...........Hagee has on numerous occasions had Jewish Rabbis come and speak/ preach in his church, He is a very strong proponent of Israel and the Jewish faith/people.....you need to do a little bit of studying on this subject before speaking on it. I'm not a Hagee follower but I do know what he believes/ backs on this subject. He if very PRO-Jew, Pro-Israel....he may be Judaism's best friend. Y'all need to remember, Jesus was a Jew.

[zartan]

Actually it isn't a "bunch of horse crap". The are a huge array of people around the world that want to kill you, me and every American they possibly can until this entire country is left in ruins. Their reasons have nothing to do with our foreign policy and they don't care of a Republican or Democrat is in the White House. The one singular reason they want to kills us is that we are not a Muslim country living under Shari'ah law and therefore in their eyes we are dogs and heathens deserving nothing more than being beheaded. Groups such as al-queda are not fighting for some political ideal or nationalistic movement. They are fighting to set up nothing short of a world wide caliphate based on 14th. century Islamic law. They want the entire world to become what Afghanistan was during the Talaban regime. You may not agree that we are in a life or death struggle for the very survival of Western civilization, but Bin Ladin and his ilk will beg to differ. On this matter I am not relying on any "propaganda" from President Bush or any right or left wing political organization on which to base my assertion. Look at Bin Ladin's and the other Islamic terrorist group's own words and you will see it is very clear what their plans for us are. At this point, we have two options. We can withdraw behind our borders under the false pretense that if we just leave them alone they will do the same for us. Or we can fight to destroy those that are trying their best to destroy us. That is the reality we find ourselves living in today, we ignore it at our own peril.
i know that dehumanizing the enemy is very important when you have a phony war that needs support, but that complete dismissal of "the enemy" as anything other than mindless savages reveals more about you than about them.
as for listening to bin Laden's own words, how about this:

"I don't think Osama bin Laden sent those planes to attack us because he hated our freedom. I think he did it because of our support for Israel, and our ties with the Saudi family and all our military bases in Saudi Arabia. You know why I think that? Because that's what he f******g said!"--david cross

i know i just used that quote a few threads ago, but it's still valid here...

[timNem]

It doesn't matter why Osama sent those planes, the only reason for concern is that he did send them. We support the free state of Israel, Osama wants to burn it and all the Jews like so many who have tried to exterminate them before. We are soooo wrong to have bases in Saudi Arabia with lunatics like Hussein invading Kuwait and burning the oil rigs, then you have Hitler Jr. in Iran threatening to incinerate Israel.

[zartan]

we can't just napalm everyone who disagrees with us for the rest of eternity.

[WarEagle73]

i know that dehumanizing the enemy is very important when you have a phony war that needs support, but that complete dismissal of "the enemy" as anything other than mindless savages reveals more about you than about them.
as for listening to bin Laden's own words, how about this:

"I don't think Osama bin Laden sent those planes to attack us because he hated our freedom. I think he did it because of our support for Israel, and our ties with the Saudi family and all our military bases in Saudi Arabia. You know why I think that? Because that's what he f******g said!"--david cross

i know i just used that quote a few threads ago, but it's still valid here...




Since you want to quote Bin Laden. Here is another quote for you where he tells us how to end al queda's war against America. Help me see where our support for Israel fits in with what David Cross claimed that Bin Laden said. :glare:

From the BBC (Direct quote from Osama Ben Laden)

'Two choices'

A short excerpt from the 30-minute tape was aired by al-Jazeera TV on Friday evening.

It shows Osama Bin Laden sitting at a table, dressed in a white robe and turban and beige cloak. His beard looks shorter and darker than in the video issued in 2004.

You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you... to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan

Bin Laden tape


Excerpts from video
Bin Laden in media-savvy war

Beneath him a banner reads in English: "A message from Sheikh Osama Bin Laden to the American people."

The speaker makes no overt threats to the US and did not directly call for attacks, according to transcripts of the tape obtained by several media organisations in the United States.

Instead, he tells the American people that they have failed to persuade the Bush administration to stop the war in Iraq.

"You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you... to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan," the speaker in the tape says, according to the transcript obtained by ABC News.

The speaker tells the American public that there are two ways to end the war in Iraq: "The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you."

The second way, he continues, is to reject America's democratic system and convert to Islam.


You see, when I said we have two choices, I wasn't trying to "dehumanize" anyone. I was simply stating what the enemy himself has said. You can go on telling yourself that these animal's don't really hate us and are only waging war on us because of our support for Israel or whatever, but that will not change the fact that they do indeed hate you, want to kill you, and it all boils down to the fact you are not muslim.

[zartan]

And here are some more Binny quotes for you:

"Thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again."

"As for those who condemned these operations looked at the event [9/11] in isolation and failed to connect them to past events and did not look at the causes that lead to this result. So their point of view is narrow."

"We say our terror against America is blessed terror in order to put an end to suppression, in order for the United States to stop its support to Israel."

"Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Each and every state that does not tamper with our security will have automatically assured its own security."

The idea that some Muslims want to kill us because we're not Muslim is total malarkey. The Muslims have been around a hell of a lot longer than we have, but I don't remember any terrorist attacks before 1947, do you?

[WarEagle73]

And here are some more Binny quotes for you:

"Thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again."

"As for those who condemned these operations looked at the event [9/11] in isolation and failed to connect them to past events and did not look at the causes that lead to this result. So their point of view is narrow."

"We say our terror against America is blessed terror in order to put an end to suppression, in order for the United States to stop its support to Israel."

"Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Each and every state that does not tamper with our security will have automatically assured its own security."

The idea that some Muslims want to kill us because we're not Muslim is total malarkey. The Muslims have been around a hell of a lot longer than we have, but I don't remember any terrorist attacks before 1947, do you?


Those are all well and good quotes. However, you seem to completely ignore Bin Ladin's own words. He comes right out and says that they will stop attacking us if we just convert to Islam. That is the crux of the matter. Why is it that you refuse to see the reality staring you in the face. They hate us not for what we do but for who we are. The whole Israel argument is simply a symptom of the disease. Bin Ladin's #1 objective is a world that is dominated by Islam. I'm not claiming this, G W Bush & Cheney aren't claiming this. Bin Ladin himself is the one claiming this. Whether you like it or not he has declared "holy war" on America and he will not stop until either we destroy him and his followers or he destroys us. Do you actually think we can somehow sit down and reason with these people? do you think Obama can have a summit with Bin Ladin and come to some sort of detente with him?What will we use to bargain with when their stated goal is the death of our civilization?

[zartan]

Those are all well and good quotes. However, you seem to completely ignore Bin Ladin's own words. He comes right out and says that they will stop attacking us if we just convert to Islam. That is the crux of the matter. Why is it that you refuse to see the reality staring you in the face. They hate us not for what we do but for who we are. The whole Israel argument is simply a symptom of the disease. Bin Ladin's #1 objective is a world that is dominated by Islam. I'm not claiming this, G W Bush & Cheney aren't claiming this. Bin Ladin himself is the one claiming this. Whether you like it or not he has declared "holy war" on America and he will not stop until either we destroy him and his followers or he destroys us. Do you actually think we can somehow sit down and reason with these people? do you think Obama can have a summit with Bin Ladin and come to some sort of detente with him?What will we use to bargain with when their stated goal is the death of our civilization?
first of all, i enjoyed how you dismissively brushed aside my set of quotes before suggesting that i ignored yours. nice touch. second of all, you mentioned that Binny has declared holy war on America. there are a lot of democracies on Earth. why us? hmmm, could it be because we are the ones propping up Israel, putting bases in Saudi, and occupying Iraq?....or do you instead simply think that America is just first alphabetically on the bin Laden "Places to Blow Up" list?

[WarEagle73]

first of all, i enjoyed how you dismissively brushed aside my set of quotes before suggesting that i ignored yours. nice touch. second of all, you mentioned that Binny has declared holy war on America. there are a lot of democracies on Earth. why us? hmmm, could it be because we are the ones propping up Israel, putting bases in Saudi, and occupying Iraq?....or do you instead simply think that America is just first alphabetically on the bin Laden "Places to Blow Up" list?

Wow. This scares the hell out of me. It scares the hell out of me because I know this line of thinking has become so common on the left. It scares the hell out of me because liberals have sold out their loyalty to their country for loyalty to a political party. It scares the hell out of me because it shows how liberals think our own country is evil and deserves whatever it gets. It scares the hell out of me because it shows that in liberals eyes, the USA is the only evil in the world. It scares the hell out of me because it shows there are so many in this country that have lost the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what is right and help our country defend herself.

[zartan]

Wow. This scares the hell out of me. It scares the hell out of me because I know this line of thinking has become so common on the left. It scares the hell out of me because liberals have sold out their loyalty to their country for loyalty to a political party. It scares the hell out of me because it shows how liberals think our own country is evil and deserves whatever it gets. It scares the hell out of me because it shows that in liberals eyes, the USA is the only evil in the world. It scares the hell out of me because it shows there are so many in this country that have lost the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what is right and help our country defend herself.
oh, sure. you're an nonpartisan american loyalist. i'm sure you will unquestioningly support hilary or obama if they win. also, you are the one drawing a line in the sand with the Muslims and saying it is impossible to negotiate, they won't stop until they destroy the West, etc, etc. if you set up a kill-or-be-killed scenario with no hope of diplomacy, then you DO deserve what you get. it's all part of that phony tough-guy act you neocons are so in love with.

[timNem]

oh, sure. you're an nonpartisan american loyalist. i'm sure you will unquestioningly support hilary or obama if they win. also, you are the one drawing a line in the sand with the Muslims and saying it is impossible to negotiate, they won't stop until they destroy the West, etc, etc. if you set up a kill-or-be-killed scenario with no hope of diplomacy, then you DO deserve what you get. it's all part of that phony tough-guy act you neocons are so in love with.
Its hard for some people to understand that there are actually people out there who owe no allegiance to any political party. It shouldn't be a freaking game of Democrats vs Republicans but it is because of so many people willing to be the sheeple robots of each party. As long as that remains to be the case so will the politicial status quo.

They have proved it to be impossible to negotiate. Our fine leaders have sweet talked Israel into giving up land several times to initiate a peace agreement. We have seen how the Muslims have honored those agreements time after time by stepping up their rocket attacks and bombings of residential areas.

Its not a phony tough-guy act its called REALITY.

[AUChamps]

The pastor was right on 1 thing and 1 thing alone.

Bill Clinton was riding dirty. Everything else the man said was a crock.

[zartan]

Its hard for some people to understand that there are actually people out there who owe no allegiance to any political party. It shouldn't be a freaking game of Democrats vs Republicans but it is because of so many people willing to be the sheeple robots of each party. As long as that remains to be the case so will the politicial status quo.

They have proved it to be impossible to negotiate. Our fine leaders have sweet talked Israel into giving up land several times to initiate a peace agreement. We have seen how the Muslims have honored those agreements time after time by stepping up their rocket attacks and bombings of residential areas.

Its not a phony tough-guy act its called REALITY.
the Israelis have been the target of dozens of U.N. resolutions condemning their aggression and abuse of human rights. there is no moral high ground to be had in this argument.

[timNem]

the Israelis have been the target of dozens of U.N. resolutions condemning their aggression and abuse of human rights. there is no moral high ground to be had in this argument.
resolutions against Israel for defending itself in which many were vetoed because of being so biased.

[zartan]

resolutions against Israel for defending itself in which many were vetoed because of being so biased.
are you seriously arguing that the Israelis have a spotless reputation in this conflict?

[timNem]

are you seriously arguing that the Israelis have a spotless reputation in this conflict?
Im just stating facts..

[zartan]

Im just stating facts..
...and ignoring others, apparently.

[timNem]

...and ignoring others, apparently.
which ones? be specific

[WarEagle73]

oh, sure. you're an nonpartisan american loyalist. i'm sure you will unquestioningly support hilary or obama if they win. also, you are the one drawing a line in the sand with the Muslims and saying it is impossible to negotiate, they won't stop until they destroy the West, etc, etc. if you set up a kill-or-be-killed scenario with no hope of diplomacy, then you DO deserve what you get. it's all part of that phony tough-guy act you neocons are so in love with.



Al-Qaeda are the ones that drew the line in the Sand. Why do you refuse to see the reality that is staring you in the face. They have stated in plain words their goal is the total domination of this world under Islamic rule. The have said that either the USA will convert to Islam or be wiped from the face of the earth. What exactly do you think we can negotiate with people that think such as this? You cannot negotiate with someone that hates you for who you are and not for what you do. You can change what you do but you cannot change who you are. Since you cannot change who you are then negotiations are not an option. This is not the view of neo-cons or anyone. In fact this should not be a left vs. right fight. Guess what, they hate you just as much as they do me. They want to kill you just as much as they do me. They see us all as the same dogs that deserve nothing other than death. This isn't some propaganda, this is what they have said themselves.

[GetEmGamecocks]

Nope, your wrong...........Hagee has on numerous occasions had Jewish Rabbis come and speak/ preach in his church, He is a very strong proponent of Israel and the Jewish faith/people.....you need to do a little bit of studying on this subject before speaking on it. I'm not a Hagee follower but I do know what he believes/ backs on this subject. He if very PRO-Jew, Pro-Israel....he may be Judaism's best friend. Y'all need to remember, Jesus was a Jew.

Check this out: Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism (http://www.nkusa.org/)


Here is one article from that site:
Speech by Rabbi Hirsch
In the name of Allah, the merciful and compassionate.

We congratulate all participants in the protest march against the Zionist’s brutal oppression of our Palestinian brethren in Palestine. We, the Jews come together today to feel their pain, to grieve their grief, and to shout their outcry, the outcry of the distinguished Palestinian people — the ancient and genuine inhabitants of "Palestine"!

The Holy Torah, that is the guideline of faithful Jewry, teaches us means of compassion and mercifulness, of fairness and peace — obligates us now to come out to the streets of El-Quds [Jerusalem] to cry out our grievances against the oppression of our Muslim brethren, the Palestinian people, for 60 years incessantly, by the atrocious Zionists, especially the brutality of demolition of residential houses, especially the current affair of the Abu-Eisha family from the village of Beith-Chanina, that between day and night, many innocent families, old and young, infants and their mothers, found themselves without a roof over their head.

Unfortunately, demolition of the houses is not a separate issue, but is the outcome of the continuous stranglehold, a long chain of occupation and oppression, bloodshed and despoliation of the Palestinian people, the ancient genuine inhabitants of the Holy Land, by the hands of the atrocious Zionists.

To our grief, unfortunately, we are eye-witnessing the non-stop vicious cycle of bloodshed in the Middle East. We all grieve and cry out for the past and fear very much the future, Allah, have mercy!

Our brethren and friends the "Palestinian People", the inhabitants of the land, also the millions of exiled Palestinians abroad, rest assured, we are with you "fellow-sufferers" — all the way. We, the authentic Jewry, who follow the footsteps of our common "Patriarch Abraham", we are in the "same boat", captive under the infidel Zionist regime. We declare herein that Zionists are NOT Jews, and they have NO right to rule over the Holy Land. We pray daily to Almighty, that He dismantle the Zionist reign in the Holy Land and for the abolition of the Zionist idea, that is the absolute opposite of the fundamentals of our own Holy Torah.

We believe that the final and just solution to stop the vicious cycle of bloodshed and to establish repose and peace for the Muslims and Jews alike, can be achieved only be returning to "One Palestine" rule to all inhabitants, that its capital will be "El Quds" like we coexisted, Jews and Arabs, till the Zionist occupation — in peace and security for centuries under Muslim rule.

We vigorously urge the leaders of U.S.A. and E.U. and international human rights organizations, to act immediately with all means at their disposal, to return the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people, the ancient inhabitants of Palestine, and endeavor in dismantlement of the Zionist occupation — without bloodshed — of the land, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea!

We pray to the Creator to bestow peace and brotherhood, mercy, justice, and fairness upon all human beings, to worship Him, shoulder to shoulder, Inshallah!!

Rabbi Hirsch can be contacted at +972-(0)52-238-1315 or email: nkp@neto.bezeqint.net

[zartan]

which ones? be specific
how about these:

Resolution 592: " ... 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
Resolution 605: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.
Resolution 607: " ... 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Resolution 608: " ... 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
Resolution 636: " ... 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 641: " ... 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 672: " ... 'condemns' Israel for "violence against Palestinians" at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
Resolution 673: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
Resolution 681: " ... 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 694: " ... 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Resolution 726: " ... 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

you know who vetoes these resolutions in the UN? the US. hardly an objective voice of reason in this matter...

[timNem]

how about these:

Resolution 592: " ... 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
Resolution 605: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.
Resolution 607: " ... 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Resolution 608: " ... 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
Resolution 636: " ... 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 641: " ... 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 672: " ... 'condemns' Israel for "violence against Palestinians" at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
Resolution 673: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
Resolution 681: " ... 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 694: " ... 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Resolution 726: " ... 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

you know who vetoes these resolutions in the UN? the US. hardly an objective voice of reason in this matter...

I wonder why they would want to deport these people...I mean, heck all they are doing is blowing people up! :wacko:

Hardly an objective voice?? Are you serious? Who would offer a better and more objectional voice?

You're right though, the USA is sooooo bad that I think I'll move to the Islamic Republic of Iran where I can live a free and prosperous life if I so choose...

[timNem]

"UN condemns Israel but ASK Hamas to stop firing rockets"

Anybody see anything wrong with this?

Israel takes months of rocket attacks and not one word from the UN, when Israel fights back they are condemned.

[zartan]

I wonder why they would want to deport these people...I mean, heck all they are doing is blowing people up! :wacko:

Hardly an objective voice?? Are you serious? Who would offer a better and more objectional voice?

You're right though, the USA is sooooo bad that I think I'll move to the Islamic Republic of Iran where I can live a free and prosperous life if I so choose...
there are generally accepted legal means for apprehending and detaining criminals. mass deportations and land grabs are not among them.

as to your second point: who would be a better, more objective voice? how about anyone? the US spends billions propping up Israel. who do you think they will side with in a dispute?

third: i don't think america sucks. i just think we can do better.

[zartan]

"UN condemns Israel but ASK Hamas to stop firing rockets"

Anybody see anything wrong with this?

Israel takes months of rocket attacks and not one word from the UN, when Israel fights back they are condemned.
yeah, i see something wrong with it. neither side listened.

[Crimson Kicker8]

oh, sure. you're an nonpartisan american loyalist. i'm sure you will unquestioningly support hilary or obama if they win. also, you are the one drawing a line in the sand with the Muslims and saying it is impossible to negotiate, they won't stop until they destroy the West, etc, etc. if you set up a kill-or-be-killed scenario with no hope of diplomacy, then you DO deserve what you get. it's all part of that phony tough-guy act you neocons are so in love with.

Boo, for several reasons. Negotiation with Muslims is not off the table, negotiation with Islamic extremeist, whole new ball game. Just because the United States has a no negotiation policy against those who kill Americans, Jews, fellow Muslims, and anyone else who gets in their way, is hardly justification for saying we deserve what we get. Quite frankly, I find any such insinuation pathetic.

[Crimson Kicker8]

are you seriously arguing that the Israelis have a spotless reputation in this conflict?

No, what tim is saying is that what Israel is capable of (giving up land and homes for the chance of peace) Palestinian terrorists are not. Israel's record isn't clean, but it's shown a hell of a lot more willingness towards peace than the Palestinians, therin lies the difference.

[timNem]

No, what tim is saying is that what Israel is capable of (giving up land and homes for the chance of peace) Palestinian terrorists are not. Israel's record isn't clean, but it's shown a hell of a lot more willingness towards peace than the Palestinians, therin lies the difference.
no doubt, Israel is the ONLY one of the two who had to sacrifice in all those peace deals and yet the Palestinians never kept their end of the agreement. Israel would be much better off if they never agreed to any more peace deals because history has proven that the bombings have increased after each deal. They have learned that whenever they terrorize they get more land.

[zartan]

Boo, for several reasons. Negotiation with Muslims is not off the table, negotiation with Islamic extremeist, whole new ball game. Just because the United States has a no negotiation policy against those who kill Americans, Jews, fellow Muslims, and anyone else who gets in their way, is hardly justification for saying we deserve what we get. Quite frankly, I find any such insinuation pathetic.
this country has taken a side in the israel/palestine conflict. doing so has consequences. if you want to boo anyone about that, i suggest you write your senator, not me.

[Crimson Kicker8]

this country has taken a side in the israel/palestine conflict. doing so has consequences. if you want to boo anyone about that, i suggest you write your senator, not me.

Yes, after sever peace accords, dialog, acts of good will, America has chosen a side. Very little choice if you ask me. If supporting Israel (the side that demonstrates a better chance at peace) is used by some for justifying a 9/11, then the blood from those crimes lies on their hands, not ours.

[zartan]

No, what tim is saying is that what Israel is capable of (giving up land and homes for the chance of peace) Palestinian terrorists are not. Israel's record isn't clean, but it's shown a hell of a lot more willingness towards peace than the Palestinians, therin lies the difference.
rubbish. neither side has done a very good job of following the road map for peace.

[zartan]

Yes, after sever peace accords, dialog, acts of good will, America has chosen a side. Very little choice if you ask me. If supporting Israel (the side that demonstrates a better chance at peace) is used by some for justifying a 9/11, then the blood from those crimes lies on their hands, not ours.

and your tax dollars have been spent to kill palestinians. isn't it fun having the chicken-or-egg debate as pertains to the arab/israeli conflict?

[GeauxTo]

I think Israel has shown enormous restraint. They have had nuclear weapons for quite a while, but they have never used them. Also, their military is quite capable of taking out Iran right now. Certainly the influence of the U. S. has restrained Israel, as well. We are perhaps their best friend and ally in the world, and, living as they do surrounded by a sea of hate, they relish our friendship. And I, for one, am glad we are their friends, for many, many reasons; not the least of which is that Jews do not want to make us Jews or kill us for our beliefs that differ from theirs. Islam and all of its adherents is quite another story.

On the other hand, what if one of the Arab countries or the Persian descendants in Iran had nuclear weapons? How long do you think it would take them to blast Israel off the map?

Muslims love people like Zartan; it makes the accomplishment of their agenda much easier. Fortunately, there are still people in America who realize that freedom is difficult to achieve and even more difficult to maintain. They realize that their government and their country is not perfect; it has flaws. But, it is still the best place in the world to be. While Zartan and those of his ilk can spew their disgust and hatred of our America and its government, that is only because we are America and we have such freedoms. Let Zartan try that in a Muslim country.

No one I know gives a sh*t whether Obama is black, white, half-black, half-white, etc. (I live in a state that recently elected a first-generation Indian as governor, for example), but they do give a sh*t that he has for 20 or so years consorted with people who try to bomb American institutions and who say things as foolish as "America created the AIDS disease to do away with black people." That should be enough to raise the concern of anyone getting ready to choose the next president of the (still) mightiest and freest nation in the world.

[zartan]

Freedom: difficult to achieve and even more difficult to maintain....unless you have nukes, in which case you can be heralded for your restraint.:laugh:

If dissent against US foreign policy is all it takes to make me a Muslim sympathizer, then send me your address Geaux, I'll send you my turban. I have the feeling you're gonna need it come November.

As for Obama: I could link you any number of pics of Bush and his cabinet members shaking hands with saddam hussein, members of the taliban, etc. i'm sure you have the same view of them that you do of Obama after 'Pastorgate'.

[GeauxTo]

Freedom: difficult to achieve and even more difficult to maintain....unless you have nukes, in which case you can be heralded for your restraint.:laugh:

If dissent against US foreign policy is all it takes to make me a Muslim sympathizer, then send me your address Geaux, I'll send you my turban. I have the feeling you're gonna need it come November.

As for Obama: I could link you any number of pics of Bush and his cabinet members shaking hands with saddam hussein, members of the taliban, etc. i'm sure you have the same view of them that you do of Obama after 'Pastorgate'.

You know, Zartan, I served for three years in the Airborne with guys that would want to rip your head off and sh*t down your neck. And... most of them could do it.

Take care, my friend. We will discuss sports, realizing that we are poles apart when it comes to who and what a "patriot" is.

[zartan]

You know, Zartan, I served for three years in the Airborne with guys that would want to rip your head off and sh*t down your neck. And... most of them could do it.

Take care, my friend. We will discuss sports, realizing that we are poles apart when it comes to who and what a "patriot" is.
You'll never believe this Geaux, but I actually do think you and your comrades are heroes. I just worry that our foreign policy puts our armed forces and civilians at extra risk. Obviously we disagree about that, but I can assure you my heart is in the right place. Where you think my head is at is open for debate.:laugh:

But know this: no politician can ever make YOU my enemy.

now let's get back to the real enemy here: Florida.

[Crimson Kicker8]

rubbish. neither side has done a very good job of following the road map for peace.

I'll tell you what's rubbish, your inability to accept facts. Those pesky facts always get in the way don't they? Did or did not Israel relinquish land in Gaza and the West Bank to Palestinian control? And what happened to those homes, that land? Oh yes, it was turned into a war zone by Palestinians fighting Palestinians. So thousands of Jews gave up their homes just so Palestine could war against the world.

Has is or hasn't it been Israeli policy to embrace peace once credible talks could be established? Wasn't it Yasser Arafat who refused to denounce the suicidal tactics of Hamas? Why is that so hard to grasp? Do something, ANYTHING in an act of good faith, denounce the violence, even if some crazy sects of Hamas keep attacking atleast it's Paletstine's government policy to denounce those who do and to act accordingly against them. If Palestine were capable of that, then Israel would gladly come back to the peace table.

So you can sit there and see this as atrocity against atrocity, with neither side being more noble than the other. Just be prepared in doing so because facts always come back to the surface.

[zartan]

you're right. the Palestinians did not stop the violence, and have done a pathetic job at condemning it and disassociating themselves from it.

however, the Israelis have not stopped the confiscation of Palestine territory and the building of settlements in the areas they said they would vacate during the road map process.

and how did Israel react to the rocket attacks? by engaging in a military action in Gaza that resulted in their condemnation from Amnesty International, the United Nations, and the European Union.

sorry, i just can't see any good guys in this fight...

[UKat]

Check this out: Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism (http://www.nkusa.org/)


Here is one article from that site:
Speech by Rabbi Hirsch
In the name of Allah, the merciful and compassionate.

We congratulate all participants in the protest march against the Zionist’s brutal oppression of our Palestinian brethren in Palestine. We, the Jews come together today to feel their pain, to grieve their grief, and to shout their outcry, the outcry of the distinguished Palestinian people — the ancient and genuine inhabitants of "Palestine"!

The Holy Torah, that is the guideline of faithful Jewry, teaches us means of compassion and mercifulness, of fairness and peace — obligates us now to come out to the streets of El-Quds [Jerusalem] to cry out our grievances against the oppression of our Muslim brethren, the Palestinian people, for 60 years incessantly, by the atrocious Zionists, especially the brutality of demolition of residential houses, especially the current affair of the Abu-Eisha family from the village of Beith-Chanina, that between day and night, many innocent families, old and young, infants and their mothers, found themselves without a roof over their head.

Unfortunately, demolition of the houses is not a separate issue, but is the outcome of the continuous stranglehold, a long chain of occupation and oppression, bloodshed and despoliation of the Palestinian people, the ancient genuine inhabitants of the Holy Land, by the hands of the atrocious Zionists.

To our grief, unfortunately, we are eye-witnessing the non-stop vicious cycle of bloodshed in the Middle East. We all grieve and cry out for the past and fear very much the future, Allah, have mercy!

Our brethren and friends the "Palestinian People", the inhabitants of the land, also the millions of exiled Palestinians abroad, rest assured, we are with you "fellow-sufferers" — all the way. We, the authentic Jewry, who follow the footsteps of our common "Patriarch Abraham", we are in the "same boat", captive under the infidel Zionist regime. We declare herein that Zionists are NOT Jews, and they have NO right to rule over the Holy Land. We pray daily to Almighty, that He dismantle the Zionist reign in the Holy Land and for the abolition of the Zionist idea, that is the absolute opposite of the fundamentals of our own Holy Torah.

We believe that the final and just solution to stop the vicious cycle of bloodshed and to establish repose and peace for the Muslims and Jews alike, can be achieved only be returning to "One Palestine" rule to all inhabitants, that its capital will be "El Quds" like we coexisted, Jews and Arabs, till the Zionist occupation — in peace and security for centuries under Muslim rule.

We vigorously urge the leaders of U.S.A. and E.U. and international human rights organizations, to act immediately with all means at their disposal, to return the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people, the ancient inhabitants of Palestine, and endeavor in dismantlement of the Zionist occupation — without bloodshed — of the land, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea!

We pray to the Creator to bestow peace and brotherhood, mercy, justice, and fairness upon all human beings, to worship Him, shoulder to shoulder, Inshallah!!

Rabbi Hirsch can be contacted at +972-(0)52-238-1315 or email: nkp@neto.bezeqint.netShow me where John Hagee is listed in this article you cut/pasted............he isn't. Again get your fact research inline before you get into a gunfight.

[UKat]

you're right. the Palestinians did not stop the violence, and have done a pathetic job at condemning it and disassociating themselves from it.

however, the Israelis have not stopped the confiscation of Palestine territory and the building of settlements in the areas they said they would vacate during the road map process.

and how did Israel react to the rocket attacks? by engaging in a military action in Gaza that resulted in their condemnation from Amnesty International, the United Nations, and the European Union.

sorry, i just can't see any good guys in this fight...There is NO confiscation of Palastinian territory........Israel was on Israeli territory. Get real man.......Israel giving up Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights would be like us giving up California, New Mexico and Arizona to the Mexicans...(which we darn near are). We wouldn't want to actually give up any of the territory we fought for and won or bought, so why would you expect Israel to do the same?? I've been to Israel and there isn't a whole heck of a lot of land to give up, the entire country is smaller than the state of Kentucky in land mass. If they truly gave up the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West Bank it would make Israel highly vulnerable to Syria for attack.

Israel shows tons of restraint as Geaux has said........would the U.S. sit back and allow thousands...(yes thousands) of missiles to be fired on us daily for the past couple of years and no squash the folks doing it? You need to totally understand the situation there before going off on some bleeding heart liberal crusade taking up for the Palestinians.....believe it or not there are quite a few Palestinians that prefer to live under Israeli law because they actually have sewer/sanitation/ water and other civil services that they have very little of under Hamas rule. The Palestinians have several areas to live in....Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon....etc., etc. Parts of Lebanon and Syria are still a part of Palestine.

[UKat]

you're right. the Palestinians did not stop the violence, and have done a pathetic job at condemning it and disassociating themselves from it.

however, the Israelis have not stopped the confiscation of Palestine territory and the building of settlements in the areas they said they would vacate during the road map process.

and how did Israel react to the rocket attacks? by engaging in a military action in Gaza that resulted in their condemnation from Amnesty International, the United Nations, and the European Union.

sorry, i just can't see any good guys in this fight... Your over here in America listening to liberal American media......You don't know anything about the fight.

[zartan]

Your over here in America listening to liberal American media......You don't know anything about the fight.
oh, so i would be better informed if i tuned into limbaugh, o'reilly, hannity, and glenn beck, right?

[timNem]

oh, so i would be better informed if i tuned into limbaugh, o'reilly, hannity, and glenn beck, right?
nah, Limbaugh is a hardline Republican, O'reilly is full of himself although I applaud him for speaking out against judges letting child predators off too easy, Hannity is a Republican pawn and Im not that familiar with Beck. Maybe find someone who is Independent like Savage if you can handle his charm :laugh:

[AUChamps]

nah, Limbaugh is a hardline Republican, O'reilly is full of himself although I applaud him for speaking out against judges letting child predators off too easy, Hannity is a Republican pawn and Im not that familiar with Beck. Maybe find someone who is Independent like Savage if you can handle his charm :laugh:
Beck's a guy you'd like. Little too "end of days" for me, but the humor keeps me coming around.

Glenn Beck Program (http://www.glennbeck.com)

[zartan]

There is NO confiscation of Palastinian territory........Israel was on Israeli territory.

the EU, UN and the Geneva Convention beg to differ.

Get real man.......Israel giving up Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights would be like us giving up California, New Mexico and Arizona to the Mexicans...(which we darn near are). We wouldn't want to actually give up any of the territory we fought for and won or bought, so why would you expect Israel to do the same??

oh, i don't know. how about to put an end to a cycle of perpetual slaughter? how about a giant step forward for world peace? no, you're right. a petty border squabble is much more important.

I've been to Israel and there isn't a whole heck of a lot of land to give up, the entire country is smaller than the state of Kentucky in land mass. If they truly gave up the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West Bank it would make Israel highly vulnerable to Syria for attack.

if Israel gave up all that land and allowed for the Palestinian right to return and Syria still attacked them, I would be all for bombing them into oblivion.

Israel shows tons of restraint as Geaux has said........would the U.S. sit back and allow thousands...(yes thousands) of missiles to be fired on us daily for the past couple of years and no squash the folks doing it? You need to totally understand the situation there before going off on some bleeding heart liberal crusade taking up for the Palestinians.....believe it or not there are quite a few Palestinians that prefer to live under Israeli law because they actually have sewer/sanitation/ water and other civil services that they have very little of under Hamas rule. The Palestinians have several areas to live in....Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon....etc., etc. Parts of Lebanon and Syria are still a part of Palestine.

hahaha, what a joke. that's like claiming that illegal immigrant Mexicans come here because they love America and the American ideal. Hamas won the popular vote. they can't provide for the Palestinian people because Israel (backed up by US megabucks) has its foot on Hamas' throat. but don't kid yourself as to who they support.

[timNem]

hahaha, what a joke. that's like claiming that illegal immigrant Mexicans come here because they love America and the American ideal. Hamas won the popular vote. they can't provide for the Palestinian people because Israel (backed up by US megabucks) has its foot on Hamas' throat. but don't kid yourself as to who they support.
You do know that Hamas is a terrorist organization, right? The election they won by "popular vote" was about as legit as the recent "vote" in Russia

[zartan]

You do know that Hamas is a terrorist organization, right? The election they won by "popular vote" was about as legit as the recent "vote" in Russia
You do know that Hamas provides schools, mosques, and hospitals to the Palestinians, right? I'm not for one second condoning or forgetting the suicide bombers they fund, but they are in some regards the only local representative the Palestinian people have. That would be why they are wildly popular amongst Palestinans in the West Bank and Gaza.

Let me repeat something for emphasis--I in no way condone or forgive the funding of suicide bombers, I'm just trying to explain why Hamas is popular in Palestine.

[UKat]

hahaha, what a joke. that's like claiming that illegal immigrant Mexicans come here because they love America and the American ideal. Hamas won the popular vote. they can't provide for the Palestinian people because Israel (backed up by US megabucks) has its foot on Hamas' throat. but don't kid yourself as to who they support.Have you been there? Do you know anyone who lives there? If not then your probably in the dark and truly don't know/ understand what is going on there....again you see what the liberal media want you to see.

[bigsexxxy]

Have you been there? Do you know anyone who lives there? If not then your probably in the dark and truly don't know/ understand what is going on there....again you see what the liberal media want you to see.

Have YOU been there? If you have, fine. Otherwise, you're just sitting there falling back on that pathetic excuse that conservatives ALWAYS use, "the liberal media".

[GetEmGamecocks]

Yea what the hell is the liberal media, everytime I turn on the news channels, the news seems conservative as hell.

I'm sick of this country pouring money into Israel when we have kids dieing from toothaches here in the States. It's like we have to support them because they're Jewish and Jews are so important to this country. In the meantime, the very idea of Israel insults a religion that has been around for thousands of years.

[Bburton86]

Wow, UKat is way off on that one. The Jews were HANDED Palestinian land after WWII.

[azamugg]

Yea what the hell is the liberal media, everytime I turn on the news channels, the news seems conservative as hell.

I'm sick of this country pouring money into Israel when we have kids dieing from toothaches here in the States. It's like we have to support them because they're Jewish and Jews are so important to this country. In the meantime, the very idea of Israel insults a religion that has been around for thousands of years.



even the media acknowledges they're liberal so stf up w/your drivel

and kids dying from toothaches here in the states, what are you the f'n king of "I don't know what the fuck Im talking about so Im gonna lie and even exxagerate my lies so it sounds like I know wtf Im talking about"

the kids dying here from toothaches have parents that have cars, tvs, cable tv, fat belly's from eating out, etc

[Bburton86]

even the media acknowledges they're liberal so stf up w/your drivel




Well, I definitely missed this. And I'm guessing Fox News is liberal to you.

[azamugg]

Well, I definitely missed this. And I'm guessing Fox News is liberal to you.

wow, youre the doofus king of obvious..........like it how you used as an example the only known show that isnt liberal...........lets see you look into your asshole and come up with just one more channel............you still have braces for christs sake w/schmegma crusted in them

[Bburton86]

I guess you are just pissed MSNBC canceled Tucker Carlson's show.

[WarEagle73]

Well, I definitely missed this. And I'm guessing Fox News is liberal to you.


Actually, the thing that is unique about Fox is that they give equal time to both conservatives and liberals. They show both sides to an issue from both the left and right and then allow the viewer come to their on conclusions. This is in stark contrast to MSNBC & CNN where you get only liberal propaganda presented as gospel truth. That is why Liberals hate Fox so much. They have grown accustomed to having their dogma dominate the media world for so long that now there is a source other than their own it's got libs in quite the tizzy.
:happy:

[Bburton86]

Yeah, that is like saying the Sean Hannity = Alan Colmes. While Sean Hannity is a much larger personality than Colmes and Colmes has admitted to being more of a moderate and taking very conservative stances on issues.


Yeah, I totally agree with the above statement.

[WarEagle73]

Yeah, that is like saying the Sean Hannity = Alan Colmes. While Sean Hannity is a much larger personality than Colmes and Colmes has admitted to being more of a moderate and taking very conservative stances on issues.


Yeah, I totally agree with the above statement.


That is the main difference I find between conservatives and Libs. conservatives are open to a fair and balanced debate of ideas wile Libs cannot stomach the thought of having to hear anything that does not fit their narrow world view. Why is it that so many Dems boycott Fox wile there is no such reluctance from the Republican's about going on the Lib networks??:whistle:

[Bburton86]

wile there is no such reluctance from the Republican's about going on the Lib networks??:whistle:

Yeah, you're right. Liberals are never open to new ideas. It is the conservatives who are leading the charge on all things new and controversial.:wacko:

[azamugg]

Yeah, you're right. Liberals are never open to new ideas. It is the conservatives who are leading the charge on all things new and controversial.:wacko:

this post smells like your mothers vagina

[AUChamps]

Haters everywhere we go(and probably Riding Dirty too, just like the racist preacher Wright said).

[Bburton86]

this post smells like your mothers vagina


Dude, that's like, so insensitive, you need to, like, apologize or something.

[WarEagle73]

this post smells like your mothers vagina

Dude, that's like, so insensitive, you need to, like, apologize or something.


I for one generally like the smell of vagina. :whistle: However, I have no idea about the smell of Burton's mother and out of respect for him I will not comment on such.

[Bburton86]

I now know two things about Aza:

1. He is a champion of 'little peoples' rights and their sworn protector.
2. He is slowly slipping into senility thinking that things rendered on a computer screen can smell.

[azamugg]

I now know two things about Aza:

1. He is a champion of 'little peoples' rights and their sworn protector.
2. He is slowly slipping into senility thinking that things rendered on a computer screen can smell.

and you wear a HS graduation ring....................that you stole

[zartan]

That is the main difference I find between conservatives and Libs. conservatives are open to a fair and balanced debate of ideas wile Libs cannot stomach the thought of having to hear anything that does not fit their narrow world view. Why is it that so many Dems boycott Fox wile there is no such reluctance from the Republican's about going on the Lib networks??:whistle:
hahaha....this from a political party whose leader had election rallies where the audiences were screened to keep liberals out. big bad Georgie didn't want to face any questions that might burst his 'mission accomplished' bubble.

[azamugg]

will you drop the political party crap, slap yourself and smell the coffee pal, we realize you are the Champ of the Liberals, good for you, now deal with reality

[zartan]

will you drop the political party crap, slap yourself and smell the coffee pal, we realize you are the Champ of the Liberals, good for you, now deal with reality
sorry Aza, i tried as hard as i could to raise the level of debate but i'm not witty enough to tell someone they smell like an elderly woman's genitals. i guess No Child Left Behind let me down...

[Crimson Kicker8]

Yeah, that is like saying the Sean Hannity = Alan Colmes. While Sean Hannity is a much larger personality than Colmes and Colmes has admitted to being more of a moderate and taking very conservative stances on issues.


Yeah, I totally agree with the above statement.

If they picked a "true" liberal to share a show with Hannity, all you would have is Hannity presenting issues while the liberal dodged the hard questions, doesn't seem like much of a show to me. :glare: Don't blame Colmes just because he can be objective.

[azamugg]

sorry Aza, i tried as hard as i could to raise the level of debate but i'm not witty enough to tell someone they smell like an elderly woman's genitals. i guess No Child Left Behind let me down...

now I understand, why didnt you just tell me you aren't that smart?

[GetEmGamecocks]

even the media acknowledges they're liberal so stf up w/your drivel

and kids dying from toothaches here in the states, what are you the f'n king of "I don't know what the fuck Im talking about so Im gonna lie and even exxagerate my lies so it sounds like I know wtf Im talking about"

the kids dying here from toothaches have parents that have cars, tvs, cable tv, fat belly's from eating out, etc

Dude you're a complete ass. When did I lie or exaggerate? I gave my opinion. The kid that died of a toothache had crackhead parents by the way, it was right here in Columbia. Whether that was on topic or not, you need to find something better to do than flame me for no reason.

[UKat]

Have YOU been there? If you have, fine. Otherwise, you're just sitting there falling back on that pathetic excuse that conservatives ALWAYS use, "the liberal media".Why, yes I have.........I have been to Israel, the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Gaza, in fact I've been all over Israel (doesn't take long...very, very small). Things aren't always as they seem on American newscasts.....American media tends to focus only on what they want you to see.

[UKat]

Wow, UKat is way off on that one. The Jews were HANDED Palestinian land after WWII.Oh really?? Have you ever read the Bible?? They've had that land far more than just when the got it again in 1948. Ever wonder why their the most dominant power in the Middle East, yet the smallest nation?? Ever wonder why they've won just about every war that they've had?? Ever think their just may be a higher power behind them?

[cocky4ever]

Oh really?? Have you ever read the Bible?? They've had that land far more than just when the got it again in 1948. Ever wonder why their the most dominant power in the Middle East, yet the smallest nation?? Ever wonder why they've just about every war that they've had?? Ever think their just may be a higher power behind them?

Yeah....and its called America.

[UKat]

Yeah....and its called America.Hmm....America didn't fight those wars for them. Do your homework, in fact in the early 80's the Israelis actually improved the avionics and computer systems in the F-15's that they bought from us. They have one of the best armies in the world. Yes we have helped them financially, but when they've been in war they were fighting those wars by themselves. And by the way.....that higher power is GOD.

[GeauxTo]

I'm watching TV right now and it's funny to see who's defending Obama and his 20+ years of association with Wright and who's not. The mice are gathering for their run, blind and oblivious to independent thinking, and obediently following along. Pitiful!

[UKat]

I'm watching TV right now and it's funny to see who's defending Obama and his 20+ years of association with Wright and who's not. The mice are gathering for their run, blind and oblivious to independent thinking, and obediently following along. Pitiful!Like sheep to the slaughter....sheeple. Man this is fun

[Bburton86]

If they picked a "true" liberal to share a show with Hannity, all you would have is Hannity presenting issues while the liberal dodged the hard questions, doesn't seem like much of a show to me. :glare:


Kinda like when Bill O'Reilly cuts peoples mics?

[Bburton86]

Hmm....America didn't fight those wars for them. Do your homework, in fact in the early 80's the Israelis actually improved the avionics and computer systems in the F-15's that they bought from us. They have one of the best armies in the world. Yes we have helped them financially, but when they've been in war they were fighting those wars by themselves. And by the way.....that higher power is GOD.


And we broke international law when we gave them aid without them divulging that they had nuclear weapons.

[azamugg]

Kinda like when Bill O'Reilly cuts peoples mics?

yea, exactly genius!!

if any of this had come out about ANY Republican candidate I would be saying the same thing here about them .......but thats because I don't grow wool

[Bburton86]

Hmm....America didn't fight those wars for them. Do your homework, in fact in the early 80's the Israelis actually improved the avionics and computer systems in the F-15's that they bought from us. They have one of the best armies in the world. Yes we have helped them financially, but when they've been in war they were fighting those wars by themselves. And by the way.....that higher power is GOD.

Because we have backed them financially, with our political might and by sharing technology with them. How do you think a country that small became so powerful while other countries their size or greater have not?

[timNem]

Because we have backed them financially, with our political might and by sharing technology with them. How do you think a country that small became so powerful while other countries their size or greater have not?
They are a free enterprise nation with abundant resources which is not the norm in that area of the world.

[GeauxTo]

Because we have backed them financially, with our political might and by sharing technology with them. How do you think a country that small became so powerful while other countries their size or greater have not?


They are a free enterprise nation with abundant resources which is not the norm in that area of the world.


Plus, as a society and as a people, the Jews are light years ahead of the camel driver mentality that abounds in the area. They're smarter, more ambitious, and work harder than the societies around them. They made the desert bloom while the surrounding peoples are still doodling in the camel dung. The arabs haven't had a significant accomplishment since the Saracenic culture of Spain in the 9th century.

[cocky4ever]

Hmm....America didn't fight those wars for them. Do your homework, in fact in the early 80's the Israelis actually improved the avionics and computer systems in the F-15's that they bought from us. They have one of the best armies in the world. Yes we have helped them financially, but when they've been in war they were fighting those wars by themselves. And by the way.....that higher power is GOD.

No, we just gave them everything they needed to fight those wars. They were fighting those wars by themselves, but thanks to us they had much better weapons than their opponents. Take us out of the equation and they lose a lot of those battles. Unless you're saying that God is working through us. But if we're talking about an omnipotent God then He is working through every country and person....which means He is responsible for Israel getting attacked in the first place. And I dont know about them having the best army in the world. Two summers ago they seemed to be getting all they wanted from Palestine.

[UKat]

Because we have backed them financially, with our political might and by sharing technology with them. How do you think a country that small became so powerful while other countries their size or greater have not?Their more intelligent.

[GamecockDieHard]

For me, the Jewish / Palestinian issue is Biblical prophecy being fulfilled. The Bible addresses the conflict from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation. God speaks of blessing nations that bless Israel and cursing those that curse her. There are verses that outline their rise and fall that include being scattered and then returned to the land God gave them. Armageddon is a final battle over those that would destroy Israel. Being a Christian means that I have accepted the Bible as God's inspired word and, in my belief, it is literal and without fault. That means, I will support Israel. I don't expect non-believers to agree with me. In fact, I fully expect them to call me names, exclude me, and wish me to die. You know, kind of like the Muslims that have said as much. Obama's preacher says they believe in Christ, yet they condemn Israel and accuse them of terrorism against the Palestinians. That is more in line with the koran that the Bible.

Assigning relativism to the mid-east conflict is easy if you don't read the Bible or believe what it says. That's the part that drives most Marxists, Atheists, Muslims, and Communists up a wall. They deny God, therefore, they have to disprove the Bible's prophecies. The trouble is, throughout history and through several powerful world leaders that attempted to eliminate Jews through genocide, they can't do it. No more than they can stop even one of the numerous prophecies that have come true.

Most people that hate W, hate him for being a devout Christian that lives his life based on biblical principles. To some, W is waiting on the equivalent of a tooth fairy to guide him. They don't care what Bush does, he's hated for loving and believing in Christ. And that sentiment toward all Christians will increase as we get closer to the end.

In short, this is a continuation of the battle of the ages, central to humanity and existentialism on this earth. It has been, is, and will continue to be, the most contentious of arguments and will never be over, until it's over. No matter what the next peace treaty is called.

Btw, our part of the world isn't mentioned in end-time prophecy.

[GamecockDieHard]

Zechariah 12:3. "...it shall happen that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces."

Zechariah 14:1-2. "I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city."

Luke 21:20. "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you know that it's desolation is near."

Just a few verses about the conflict's importance in the Bible. Zechariah wrote of these matters more than 2500 years ago. That's about 1500 years before Muhammad or the koran was written.

[zartan]

For me, the Jewish / Palestinian issue is Biblical prophecy being fulfilled. The Bible addresses the conflict from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation. God speaks of blessing nations that bless Israel and cursing those that curse her. There are verses that outline their rise and fall that include being scattered and then returned to the land God gave them. Armageddon is a final battle over those that would destroy Israel. Being a Christian means that I have accepted the Bible as God's inspired word and, in my belief, it is literal and without fault. That means, I will support Israel. I don't expect non-believers to agree with me. In fact, I fully expect them to call me names, exclude me, and wish me to die. You know, kind of like the Muslims that have said as much. Obama's preacher says they believe in Christ, yet they condemn Israel and accuse them of terrorism against the Palestinians. That is more in line with the koran that the Bible.

Assigning relativism to the mid-east conflict is easy if you don't read the Bible or believe what it says. That's the part that drives most Marxists, Atheists, Muslims, and Communists up a wall. They deny God, therefore, they have to disprove the Bible's prophecies. The trouble is, throughout history and through several powerful world leaders that attempted to eliminate Jews through genocide, they can't do it. No more than they can stop even one of the numerous prophecies that have come true.

Most people that hate W, hate him for being a devout Christian that lives his life based on biblical principles. To some, W is waiting on the equivalent of a tooth fairy to guide him. They don't care what Bush does, he's hated for loving and believing in Christ. And that sentiment toward all Christians will increase as we get closer to the end.

In short, this is a continuation of the battle of the ages, central to humanity and existentialism on this earth. It has been, is, and will continue to be, the most contentious of arguments and will never be over, until it's over. No matter what the next peace treaty is called.

Btw, our part of the world isn't mentioned in end-time prophecy.
don't you see that this is why some want a secular government? you yourself concede that the battle will never be over. and furthermore, if these prophecies are all destined to come true anyway, why do we need to elect people who are furiously trying to fulfill them?

[GamecockDieHard]

don't you see that this is why some want a secular government? you yourself concede that the battle will never be over. and furthermore, if these prophecies are all destined to come true anyway, why do we need to elect people who are furiously trying to fulfill them?

I believe we can not abandon Israel because the Bible says we shouldn't. Our government is pretty much secular already. What you may be suggesting is that we not allow a true Christian to become president because s/he may make policy based on their beliefs. That's where most people are upset with Bush's "illegal" war. But that's up to the voters and may be at hand but imo, it will speed us to the end of our country as we know it.

We accept, based on his own w