Coffin of Christ Found?

[GeauxTo]

Scorn poured on director's 'coffin of Christ' theory | News | This is London (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23386857-details/I've+found+the+coffin+of+Jesus%2C+says+film+direct or/article.do)

[Seppeh]

Yeah saw this on Inside Edition last night.

Probably a fake.

[crawfish]

ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT it's a fake. Always someone trying to get a buzz from the Christian community. Just strengthens our faith.

[AUFootball24]

ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT it's a fake. \

What authority are you using to say this? Do you have a connection to the case?

I'm just wondering what makes you so sure here.

[crawfish]

I'm a Christian, so my authority and connection in this case is the Bible. I believe it. The Bible said it's empty. People have been trying to prove other wise for centuries. My faith says, this will be just another one of those times.

[AUFootball24]

I'm a Christian, so my authority and connection in this case is the Bible. I believe it. The Bible said it's empty. People have been trying to prove other wise for centuries. My faith says, this will be just another one of those times.

You believe there is a 0% chance that this could be real, despite knowing virtually nothing about it?

[crawfish]

Could a tomb be found? Sure! Jesus' bones? No way. No sweat.

[AUFootball24]

Could a tomb be found? Sure! Jesus' bones? No way. No sweat.

There is something to be said for the closed minded.
There is also something to be said for the faithful.

You could look at it either way, I suppose.

[crawfish]

Thanks! I enjoyed chating with you with about it. Have a great night.

[AUFootball24]

Thanks! I enjoyed chating with you with about it. Have a great night.

I can't help but notice the sarcastic undertones in your post. :happy:

My intent wasn't to offend.

[crawfish]

Sorry. No sarcastic undertones intended. . . promise. Sincerely enjoyed talking about it with you. I considered your statement of my faith a compliment is why I said thanks.

[AUFootball24]

Sorry. No sarcastic undertones intended. . . promise. Sincerely enjoyed talking about it with you. I concidered your statement of my faith a compliment is why I said thanks.

Ahh, ok. I just misunderstood you then, no biggie.

[roosterbooster]

What authority are you using to say this? Do you have a connection to the case?

I'm just wondering what makes you so sure here.


Do you truly think the Roman and Jewish leaders would have allowed Christianity to spread if evidence like this existed? Men died spreading the news of Jesus. If his body was in a tomb do you think they would have done this.

[USAFGAMECOCK]

I think they found this thing back in 1980.....you'd think that if it were really what they claim it could be you would have heard about this a long time ago. I heard somewhere on the television where they were going to use DNA to check it's authenticity......after I got through laughing, I just flipped the channel. Cool artifacts no doubt, but it's not the remains of the Son of God.

[WarEagle73]

No way this could be real. One, it was not found in Nazareth. Jesus was from Nazareth. Both the Bible and historical documentation prove this fact. Even if he were a mere mortal he would have been buried there instead of Jerusalem. Second he was poor. This gravesite was from at least a middle class family. And finally, this grave had bones. The tomb of Christ is empty for he is no longer there.

Mark 16:5 & 6
5. And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.

6. But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.

That is all the truth about this matter you will ever need.:thumpsup:

[AU Blaaaaaaaake]

Nah its real, I called up one of my friends who is related to someone who knew Jesus and this is a legit story guys.

[azamugg]

I'm a Christian, so my authority and connection in this case is the Bible. I believe it. The Bible said it's empty. People have been trying to prove other wise for centuries. My faith says, this will be just another one of those times.

you talking about the same bible that said Jonah was swallowed by a whale and lived in his belly then lived to tell about it?

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

you talking about the same bible that said Jonah was swallowed by a whale and lived in his belly then lived to tell about it?
Jonah and the Whale:

A little boy is sitting through his third grade science unit on marine biology and the teacher is talking about whales. The little boy pipes up and says, “I know about whales, the prophet Jonah was swallowed by one.” Well the teacher looks at the little boy and says that she doesn’t believe that for one minute. But the third grader insists that it is true; Jonah was swallowed by a whale and he lived to tell about it. His teacher says that the story about Jonah being swallowed by whale is just that, a story, and besides, you can’t prove that it happened because Jonah lived so long ago. So the little boy says, “well when I get to heaven I’m going to ask Jonah if he was swallowed by a whale myself.” And the teacher retorts, “Jimmy, what if Jonah didn’t go to heaven.” “Well,” says Jimmy, “then you can ask him.” :laugh:

[crawfish]

yep. Our God can do anything He wants. Have a fish swallow a man, God raise His Son from the grave. No problem. Yep, same awesome Bible.

[AUFootball24]

Do you truly think the Roman and Jewish leaders would have allowed Christianity to spread if evidence like this existed? Men died spreading the news of Jesus. If his body was in a tomb do you think they would have done this.

What? Didn't the Romans/Jews do everything in their power to stop the spread of Christianity?

The Romans were the ones who ordered Jesus' death! I'm not sure what you're getting at here. They didn't 'allow' it to happen, they tried with everything they had to stop it.

[AUFootball24]

you talking about the same bible that said Jonah was swallowed by a whale and lived in his belly then lived to tell about it?

Yes, the same one that claims Noah found 2 of every animal, got them all on a boat, and sailed the great flood.

Do you realize how many 2 of every animal is? There are an estimated 10 million species on our planet, and Smithsonian recently estimated there may be well over 30 million. Since evolution is clearly fake (:wacko:), Noah was responsible for finding all of these species, as the 'great flood' wiped out everything not on the boat.

He had to find 2 of each. One male, one female. With virtually NO means of advanced communication or transportation, I'll be extremely generous and give him an estimated 1 month average to find each animal, some obviously taking longer than others.

10 million species. 2 of each. 1 month average:

ONE MILLION, SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX THOUSAND, SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX YEARS LATER... (1,666,666.666 years, anyone think all the '666' is ironic? :laugh:)

Not only did Noah have no means of communication or transportation, this point in history was thousands of years before Eastern human even knew the Western hemisphere existed! How can you find animals on the other side of a 'flat' planet that you are not even aware of??


It doesn't stop there. There are alot of big animals out there. I'll once again be generous and do a rough estimation of 10 sq. feet per animal required to live.

Noah's ship had an approximate area of:

TWENTY MILLION SQUARE FEET

or

THREE THOUSAND, SEVEN HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SEVEN SQUARE MILES

or

12.85 TIMES THE SIZE OF NEW YORK CITY


Explain to me how a man, millennia before the invention of power tools, with no crew, built this ship 13 times the size of NYC??

Now onto the issue of keeping the animals of live. Animals, like humans, need to be fed daily. I'll be generous once again and estimate Noah and his wife feeding each animal once per day. In order to get this done, they must feed an animal approx.:

0.00432 SECONDS





Makes you think, doesn't it? But don't do that, or you'll start thinking about slightly more fundamental ideas presented in the bible.

That's what happened to me.

[roosterbooster]

What? Didn't the Romans/Jews do everything in their power to stop the spread of Christianity?

The Romans were the ones who ordered Jesus' death! I'm not sure what you're getting at here. They didn't 'allow' it to happen, they tried with everything they had to stop it.

Actually read your Bible. Pilate did not want to execute Jesus. However, if the Roman Empire could have produced a body I think it would have refuted anyone preaching about a risen Savior.

[AUFootball24]

Actually read your Bible. Pilate did not want to execute Jesus. However, if the Roman Empire could have produced a body I think it would have refuted anyone preaching about a risen Savior.

The bible also says the universe revolves around Earth and that our planet is flat.

Recent scholars believe that the Romans ordered Jesus's death. The bible says other wise. Recent scholars also believe that our world is round and we revolve around the sun. Whether you believe the recent information or that from the time when it was literally thought possible to sail off the face of the Earth is up to you.

[crawfish]

Back to earlier statement: yep. Our God can do anything He wants and in any method He wants to. No biggie.

[BamaDude06]

The bible also says the universe revolves around Earth and that our planet is flat.


I guess I missed that part. I don't ever remember reading that.

[AUFootball24]

I guess I missed that part. I don't ever remember reading that.

Galileo was excommunicated from the church for suggesting that we revolve around the sun.

Funny thing is, the church did not admit they were wrong until 1991 when the pope forgave him of his 'sins'.


Earth=flat?

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)


Sun revolves, not Earth?

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world [The deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 93:1)"

"Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world [Again, the deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 96:10)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

[BamaDude06]

Wow someone is adding a lot of spin there.

[Quezy]

Let us not forget the bible was written by man, critism of it is not critism of a God or Jesus themself, but rather of the authors, this coming from a deist.

[AUFootball24]

Wow someone is adding a lot of spin there.

I didn't add anything, I posted bible quotes.

What are you talking about? Your arguments are weak and you're resulting to these baseless accusations?

[roosterbooster]

Yes, the same one that claims Noah found 2 of every animal, got them all on a boat, and sailed the great flood.

Do you realize how many 2 of every animal is? There are an estimated 10 million species on our planet, and Smithsonian recently estimated there may be well over 30 million. Since evolution is clearly fake (:wacko:), Noah was responsible for finding all of these species, as the 'great flood' wiped out everything not on the boat.

He had to find 2 of each. One male, one female. With virtually NO means of advanced communication or transportation, I'll be extremely generous and give him an estimated 1 month average to find each animal, some obviously taking longer than others.

10 million species. 2 of each. 1 month average:

ONE MILLION, SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX THOUSAND, SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX YEARS LATER... (1,666,666.666 years, anyone think all the '666' is ironic? :laugh:)

Not only did Noah have no means of communication or transportation, this point in history was thousands of years before Eastern human even knew the Western hemisphere existed! How can you find animals on the other side of a 'flat' planet that you are not even aware of??


It doesn't stop there. There are alot of big animals out there. I'll once again be generous and do a rough estimation of 10 sq. feet per animal required to live.

Noah's ship had an approximate area of:

TWENTY MILLION SQUARE FEET

or

THREE THOUSAND, SEVEN HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SEVEN SQUARE MILES

or

12.85 TIMES THE SIZE OF NEW YORK CITY


Explain to me how a man, millennia before the invention of power tools, with no crew, built this ship 13 times the size of NYC??

Now onto the issue of keeping the animals of live. Animals, like humans, need to be fed daily. I'll be generous once again and estimate Noah and his wife feeding each animal once per day. In order to get this done, they must feed an animal approx.:

0.00432 SECONDS





Makes you think, doesn't it? But don't do that, or you'll start thinking about slightly more fundamental ideas presented in the bible.

That's what happened to me.

Again read that Bible. Noah did not take 2 of every animal. That will explain the food issue.

God gave the instructions to build the ark and it had 1.5 million cubic feet. Interestingly the scale (length vs. width) of the vessel is very similar to superfreighters of today. Furthermore most of those species you mention are microscopic and many others can survive in water.

As to the gathering, God said they would come unto Noah.

I really like that flat earth reference of yours. Go check out Isaiah 40:22 for me and tell me how he knew well before Columbus the earth was not flat. Usually when I use that argument people come back by saying that is a modern translation, however, the earliest Hebrew manuscripts use chug, which means circle.

I see you believe man descended from Apes. If this is true why are there still apes. Did the ones that still exist simply not get to evolve.

I guess you believe in a big bang, how about bang me a piece of gold and a sapphire crystal together and make me a rolex. After all it is a much simpler machine than the human body.

How about learn a little about the Bible before you dismiss it.

[AUFootball24]

Let us not forget the bible was written by man, critism of it is not critism of a God or Jesus themself, but rather of the authors, this coming from a deist.

QFT




.

[roosterbooster]

Let us not forget the bible was written by man, critism of it is not critism of a God or Jesus themself, but rather of the authors, this coming from a deist.

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

[AUFootball24]

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

What does that do for the part that said the Earth is flat?

[roosterbooster]

The bible also says the universe revolves around Earth and that our planet is flat.

Recent scholars believe that the Romans ordered Jesus's death. The bible says other wise. Recent scholars also believe that our world is round and we revolve around the sun. Whether you believe the recent information or that from the time when it was literally thought possible to sail off the face of the Earth is up to you.

Quote it then.

[roosterbooster]

What does that do for the part that said the Earth is flat?


See above for the Isaiah reference.

[AUFootball24]

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Read. Discuss. That is if you're not too afraid to stand up for what you believe in.

November 22, 2004

Classic Quotes from Leviticus - Old Testament

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

4. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put death, should I do it or should I ask the police to do it?

5. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Aren't there 'degrees' of abomination?

6. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20 or is there a little wiggle room there?

7. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

8. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

9. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

[Compilations such as this have existed at least since 1973. A version was used by The West Wing, season 2. Tip of the hat to Michael Cudahy & Dewayne Hendricks]

Posted by Jock Gill at November 22, 2004 6:11 PM | TrackBack
Comments
My personal favorite is Deut. 21:18-21. It says that we can take our stubborn and rebellious son, who won't listen to his mother and father when we discipline him, out to the edge of the city where the elders will stone him to death. Many a frustrated parent might consider this option if they knew about it!!

[roosterbooster]

I didn't add anything, I posted bible quotes.

What are you talking about? Your arguments are weak and you're resulting to these baseless accusations?

'
Where were those quotes, sounded to me you were posting men's opinions not based on Biblical truth.

[BamaDude06]

I see you believe man descended from Apes. If this is true why are there still apes. Did the ones that still exist simply not get to evolve.



Where are the "in between" things?

The first thing I ever learned about evolution in school was horses. Our book taught us horses used to be very small, but needed the ability to run faster so they evolved over hundreds of years to the horses we see today. If that is true, then why are there NO skeletal remains of the horses progress to what they are today? There are short horses and todays horses, but not any in between, and if you figure they evolved over a long period of time then why are there no mid sized hors remains? Did a little horse just all of a sudden one day have a big horse? Funny, cause my textbook never explained.

[AUFootball24]

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

This one gets me, from Exodus

"22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."


Do you practice what you preach?

[AUFootball24]

I see you believe man descended from Apes. If this is true why are there still apes. Did the ones that still exist simply not get to evolve.


I didn't say that, nor is that what evolution definitively is. Educate yourself.

Ever heard of a fork in the road? Let me show you the concept. It's like a 'branch off'. Plus, I never claimed this. You don't know what I think. Don't take the following as my claim, either.

-------------------------- <apes
\
\ <humans
\
\

[Quezy]

It is possible for evolution and God to both exist ya know.

[roosterbooster]

This one gets me, from Exodus

"22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."


Do you practice what you preach?

Yes my first born is committed to the Lord along with my second. The first fruits of my labor all go to He who gave them to me.

[AUFootball24]

Again read that Bible. Noah did not take 2 of every animal. That will explain the food issue.


Then where did the other animals he did not collect come from?

Don't say evolution, now.

[AUFootball24]

It is possible for evolution and God to both exist ya know.

Indeed. I believe in God.

[AUFootball24]

I'm not going to get into this unless you guys can assure me of one thing.

We will be accepting of each other. Not everyone has the same opinion. This is an extremely sensitive subject, I understand that. I'm more than willing to debate but will not resort to personal attacks, and at the first sign of one against me, I'm out.

Religious arguments more often than not get ugly. Let's keep this one cool. Nothing has happened yet, but I'm just trying to prevent it.

Deal?

[Quezy]

God exists, though it's possible in a limited role.

Some of the Bible is true, some is false, accept it and take the underlying themes from the false parts as you would a novel.

Why argue over religion? Is it not an opinion thing? Whatever is good for you is the only thing that matters, it's like a haircut.

[roosterbooster]

I'm not going to get into this unless you guys can assure me of one thing.

We will be accepting of each other. Not everyone has the same opinion. This is an extremely sensitive subject, I understand that. I'm more than willing to debate but will not resort to personal attacks, and at the first sign of one against me, I'm out.

Religious arguments more often than not get ugly. Let's keep this one cool. Nothing has happened yet, but I'm just trying to prevent it.

Deal?

I am not attacking you. I am defending Jesus who is the Word. I don't see how people believe in a God who can create the Universe but not preserve the truth of his Word.

[roosterbooster]

God exists, though it's possible in a limited role.

Some of the Bible is true, some is false, accept it and take the underlying themes from the false parts as you would a novel.

Why argue over religion? Is it not an opinion thing? Whatever is good for you is the only thing that matters, it's like a haircut.

So how do you go about picking and chosing what to believe. What if you cut a little too much off of one side?

[Quezy]

So how do you go about picking and chosing what to believe. What if you cut a little too much off of one side?

Personal thing, I'm not your barber, only way you know what looks best is do a lot of research.

[AUFootball24]

I am not attacking you. I am defending Jesus who is the Word. I don't see how people believe in a God who can create the Universe but not preserve the truth of his Word.

I know, I made it clear that no attacks had been made yet and the level of conversation had been relatively cool :thumpsup:

[roosterbooster]

I know, I made it clear that no attacks had been made yet and the level of conversation had been relatively cool :thumpsup:

I can get a bit of a tone when I discuss such things, just like to make it clear none of it is done in an attacking manner.

[roosterbooster]

Personal thing, I'm not your barber, only way you know what looks best is do a lot of research.

So tell me how you went about researching whether Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

[OmahaBound]

So how do you go about picking and chosing what to believe. What if you cut a little too much off of one side?

If you cut off a little too much of one side then you happen to be wrong on that issue. I go about picking and choosing what I believe by my life experiences, readings, and observing and studying the world in its present and past forms.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but the god I believe in isn't as 'anal' about what people believe. I personally don't think He really cares a whole lot as long as you live a good life, help others, and treasure the gift He has given us. If you happen to believe in whatever the truth really is, then that's just an added bonus. Typically when I say this someone will say "if he doesn't care what you believe then do satanists get into heaven?" Well if a satanist really believes and follows that philosophy then their actions are not going to be righteous anyway...so no.

Personally I believe God to be very understanding and forgiving, so I think if heaven and hell do exist, the population in hell is a proportionally insignificant number.

Random factoids that some of you will be curious about: Yes, I believe in evolution. No, I don't take the Bible literally. Yes, I think evolution was God's plan and not just some randomness.

[AUFootball24]

We share similar thoughts my man!

If you cut off a little too much of one side then you happen to be wrong on that issue. I go about picking and choosing what I believe by my life experiences, readings, and observing and studying the world in its present and past forms.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but the god I believe in isn't as 'anal' about what people believe. I personally don't think He really cares a whole lot as long as you live a good life, help others, and treasure the gift He has given us. If you happen to believe in whatever the truth really is, then that's just an added bonus. Typically when I say this someone will say "if he doesn't care what you believe then do satanists get into heaven?" Well if a satanist really believes and follows that philosophy then their actions are not going to be righteous anyway...so no.

Personally I believe God to be very understanding and forgiving, so I think if heaven and hell do exist, the population in hell is a proportionally insignificant number.

Random factoids that some of you will be curious about: Yes, I believe in evolution. No, I don't take the Bible literally. Yes, I think evolution was God's plan and not just some randomness.

[timNem]

Evolution went from being called the Theory of Evolution to Law of Evolution without there ever being any substance of proof to upgrade it. Alot of scientists don't believe in that theory while others can only explain supernatural phenomena in scientific terms. They only assume, just like the Big Bang Theory, there probably was a big bang but something also caused that to happen.

Where are the "in between" things?

The first thing I ever learned about evolution in school was horses. Our book taught us horses used to be very small, but needed the ability to run faster so they evolved over hundreds of years to the horses we see today. If that is true, then why are there NO skeletal remains of the horses progress to what they are today? There are short horses and todays horses, but not any in between, and if you figure they evolved over a long period of time then why are there no mid sized hors remains? Did a little horse just all of a sudden one day have a big horse? Funny, cause my textbook never explained.

[AUFootball24]

I think it is impossible for any man who truly believes what he claims to go to hell.

I have my beliefs. They don't mirror Christianity, but I do recognize and respect it. The point is, I truly believe what I practice. It's how I am. It's how God made me.

Will I get sent to hell for that? I'm not trying to defy God by not being a devout Christian. I'm not trying to make excuses for why I'm too lazy to live a Christian life. I really, truly believe in my beliefs, I'm not trying to do anything wrong, just what seems right to me.

God made me. God made me how I am. I am confident God will not send me to hell for that. Don't take this wrong and think I don't believe in personal accountability. You can't always fall back on the 'God made me this way' claim.

Assuming eternal life exists, my time on earth is infinitely small. I am infinitely young and know infinitely little.

Would a compassionate and understanding God send me to eternal hell for messing up and infinitely small period of my existence?

[OmahaBound]

Evolution went from being called the Theory of Evolution to Law of Evolution without there ever being any substance of proof to upgrade it. Alot of scientists don't believe in that theory while others can only explain supernatural phenomena in scientific terms. They only assume, just like the Big Bang Theory, there probably was a big bang but something also caused that to happen.

I don't disagree. It's distinctly possible that evolution began in a different way than we think or that some completely different explanation exists for the world we live in today.

The truth is that no one knows. That's why religious people have "faith" in their beliefs. The evidence isn't there to prove anything, but they believe it to be so. "You" may know in your heart that the Bible is the story of exactly what happened, but in reality "you" don't really know. I may know in my heart that "evolution" is the way we've gotten to the state we are in today, but I don't really know that to be true.

That's what makes religion such a fascinating discussion, and also such an assinine thing to kill over.

[timNem]

This little video defines the bottomline of Christianity, I think that people over time has added alot of confusing creeds and doctrinies to it. AU24, it also answers your question at the very end.

The Father's Love Letter Narration Video (http://fathersloveletter.com/fllnarration.html)

I think it is impossible for any man who truly believes what he claims to go to hell.

I have my beliefs. They don't mirror Christianity, but I do recognize and respect it. The point is, I truly believe what I practice. It's how I am. It's how God made me.

Will I get sent to hell for that? I'm not trying to defy God by not being a devout Christian. I'm not trying to make excuses for why I'm too lazy to live a Christian life. I really, truly believe in my beliefs, I'm not trying to do anything wrong, just what seems right to me.

God made me. God made me how I am. I am confident God will not send me to hell for that. Don't take this wrong and think I don't believe in personal accountability. You can't always fall back on the 'God made me this way' claim.

Assuming eternal life exists, my time on earth is infinitely small. I am infinitely young and know infinitely little.

Would a compassionate and understanding God send me to eternal hell for messing up and infinitely small period of my existence?

[AUFootball24]

This little video defines the bottomline of Christianity, I think that people over time has added alot of confusing creeds and doctrinies to it. AU24, it also answers your question at the very end.

The Father's Love Letter Narration Video (http://fathersloveletter.com/fllnarration.html)

Thank you for that! I have to go now but I'll watch it later. I was raised Christian but my personal thoughts of late have led me away from it. Ever since then, I've had many fundamental quesitons yet to be answered. Hopefully this will knock out one of them.

[roosterbooster]

I think it is impossible for any man who truly believes what he claims to go to hell.

I have my beliefs. They don't mirror Christianity, but I do recognize and respect it. The point is, I truly believe what I practice. It's how I am. It's how God made me.

Will I get sent to hell for that? I'm not trying to defy God by not being a devout Christian. I'm not trying to make excuses for why I'm too lazy to live a Christian life. I really, truly believe in my beliefs, I'm not trying to do anything wrong, just what seems right to me.

God made me. God made me how I am. I am confident God will not send me to hell for that. Don't take this wrong and think I don't believe in personal accountability. You can't always fall back on the 'God made me this way' claim.

Assuming eternal life exists, my time on earth is infinitely small. I am infinitely young and know infinitely little.

Would a compassionate and understanding God send me to eternal hell for messing up and infinitely small period of my existence?


Not for messing up because God is a forgiving God. He will judge you by your heart and whether your heart is committed to him. Jesus came into the world to save it. Would he have allowed his son to suffer such humiliation if it was not necessary. I was in the same boat for a long time. I challenge you to pick up a Bible and study it. I really don't think you have due to the flat earth reference earlier. Then tell me if you think that any man who follows his own beliefs and not the teachings of Jesus will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The keys to the Kingdom lie in a personal relationship with Jesus.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Now read the following scripture closely and tell me what you think.

Romans 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Is that not what you were just saying. Again, I cannot and will not judge you, but the Jesus I follow tells me it is my job to share the truth of his ministry.

[roosterbooster]

If you cut off a little too much of one side then you happen to be wrong on that issue. I go about picking and choosing what I believe by my life experiences, readings, and observing and studying the world in its present and past forms.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but the god I believe in isn't as 'anal' about what people believe. I personally don't think He really cares a whole lot as long as you live a good life, help others, and treasure the gift He has given us. If you happen to believe in whatever the truth really is, then that's just an added bonus. Typically when I say this someone will say "if he doesn't care what you believe then do satanists get into heaven?" Well if a satanist really believes and follows that philosophy then their actions are not going to be righteous anyway...so no.

Personally I believe God to be very understanding and forgiving, so I think if heaven and hell do exist, the population in hell is a proportionally insignificant number.

Random factoids that some of you will be curious about: Yes, I believe in evolution. No, I don't take the Bible literally. Yes, I think evolution was God's plan and not just some randomness.

God is understanding and forgiving. However, there comes a time when we will all come before Jesus. To those who follow his teachings and spread his message he will defend before his Father. Those who do not follow his teachings he will deny before the Father. Can you get into Heaven following God's law without and intercessor. Well the Old Testament indicates that you can, but Jesus died because we are not capable of living a life free from sin. I would urge you to reconsider and not try it. Seek the face of Jesus who has already been punished for you. This man was beaten, spit upon, and strapped to a cross for you. Why would he have done that if it were not necessary.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[AUFootball24]

Not for messing up because God is a forgiving God. He will judge you by your heart and whether your heart is committed to him. Jesus came into the world to save it. Would he have allowed his son to suffer such humiliation if it was not necessary. I was in the same boat for a long time. I challenge you to pick up a Bible and study it. I really don't think you have due to the flat earth reference earlier. Then tell me if you think that any man who follows his own beliefs and not the teachings of Jesus will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The keys to the Kingdom lie in a personal relationship with Jesus.


I was a devout Christian for a long time, but I think I was introduced to it at too young an age. I need to step back and make my own decisions and find what I truely believe, not what my parents do. If it happens to be the same thing, that would be great. I'm a teenager and I'm sure it's perfectly normal for people to question things as they get older.

I haven't given up on Christianity. I want to believe it, but right now if I said I did, it'd be a lie. It wouldn't be 100% w/o a doubt faith, so until I can acheive that I'm not going to claim it. I need something to show me that Christianity is real and that hasn't happened yet. I have a long road ahead of me.

[AU Blaaaaaaaake]

AU24 = Jew

[roosterbooster]

I was a devout Christian for a long time, but I think I was introduced to it at too young an age. I need to step back and make my own decisions and find what I truely believe, not what my parents do. If it happens to be the same thing, that would be great. I'm a teenager and I'm sure it's perfectly normal for people to question things as they get older.

I haven't given up on Christianity. I want to believe it, but right now if I said I did, it'd be a lie. It wouldn't be 100% w/o a doubt faith, so until I can acheive that I'm not going to claim it. I need something to show me that Christianity is real and that hasn't happened yet. I have a long road ahead of me.

Man, that is exactly the same boat. I grew up in church from the first time I can remember. I was a Christian my whole life. I think I may have gone to Heaven if something happened in those years because I did believe, I did my best to live a righteous life, and I thought I was OK. At age 32 I realized there was more to it. It was interesting how I realized this. Prayer takes on a whole new meaning when you have a child and the prayer is for that child who is hurting. That is because you realize how truly helpless you are and have no choice but to give it up to God. I prayed and had communion with a pastor who did not read the communion service from a hymn book. It was not a ritual. It was truly accepting the Lord's gift. I pray you find that in your journey. I think it is great that you are searching. If you are interested I would suggest you look for a Chrysalis Community near you. I assure you this is not any sort of a cult. It is sponsored by the Upper Room which is a part of the Methodist Church but the theology is universal. It is based around the encounter with Jesus on the road to Emmaus. It was not until this time that some of the people who lived with Jesus learned the truth. It is simply a weekend where you here a series of talks from people just like you that teaches the basics of Christianity. By the basics I do not mean how to recite the Lord's Prayer, Apostles Creed and memorizing every verse of Amazing Grace. I mean how to become a member of the body of Christ.

I will be praying you find that relationship.

[Gator2753]

I was a devout Christian for a long time, but I think I was introduced to it at too young an age. I need to step back and make my own decisions and find what I truely believe, not what my parents do. If it happens to be the same thing, that would be great. I'm a teenager and I'm sure it's perfectly normal for people to question things as they get older.

I haven't given up on Christianity. I want to believe it, but right now if I said I did, it'd be a lie. It wouldn't be 100% w/o a doubt faith, so until I can acheive that I'm not going to claim it. I need something to show me that Christianity is real and that hasn't happened yet. I have a long road ahead of me.

Well I'll keep ya in my prayers buddy, Im at a point in my life right now where I am struggling in my faith. Its not easy to follow Christ and probably never will be. Just don't dont give up on God man. I will never give up on my faith and hope you do the same.

[Seppeh]

AU24 obviously doesnt have an imagination with that big long Noah post. Sorry im only getting to this thread, probably much more replies to come.

[Seppeh]

Recent scholars believe that the Romans ordered Jesus's death.

Yeah cause they were alive back then.

I'd definetly take their word..

:laugh:

[AUFootball24]

AU24 obviously doesnt have an imagination with that big long Noah post. Sorry im only getting to this thread, probably much more replies to come.

The purpose of my post is that everything in the bible can't be taken literally. That, IMO, is a recipe for disaster.

[OmahaBound]

God is understanding and forgiving. However, there comes a time when we will all come before Jesus. To those who follow his teachings and spread his message he will defend before his Father. Those who do not follow his teachings he will deny before the Father. Can you get into Heaven following God's law without and intercessor. Well the Old Testament indicates that you can, but Jesus died because we are not capable of living a life free from sin. I would urge you to reconsider and not try it. Seek the face of Jesus who has already been punished for you. This man was beaten, spit upon, and strapped to a cross for you. Why would he have done that if it were not necessary.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

You're being very respectful and I appreciate it so please don't read anything into my comments. I think you have every right to believe what you do.

As for me, quoting the Bible is not going to convince me of anything since I already stated I don't hold it as fact. I see it as a great story, with many wonderful lessons...and personally I feel that even if it was written with the help of God, the imperfection of man tainted its message LOOOONG AGO.

As for the concept of Jesus dying for my sins.... if the story is true then I feel it was done to set an example for the rest of us. There's no greater sacrifice than to lay one's life down for another's, and we see that today on the battlefield and even in our own neighborhoods unfortunately. The world will always be full of a*holes but Jesus was here to show us the necessity for sacrifice and concern for your friend and foe alike. I don't believe He would send his Son down to die just so people will believe in Him and gain entry to heaven. But as my uncertainty at the beginning indicates, I don't necessarily know that I believe the story went down as it has been told.

Basically I just refuse to believe in a God that could watch someone lead a great life, do great works, live unselfishly, and be a true example for generations to come...but then send them to hell for not believing in Christ or Himself. The only way I could fathom that life being punishable is if there really is a heaven, and hell is simply being forced to live another lifetime on this earth away from it until we do become believers.

[gatorunvrsty]

The purpose of my post is that everything in the bible can't be taken literally. That, IMO, is a recipe for disaster.

Of course it can't. The Bible has been translated several times before finally being translated into English. Even the translation into English has different variations. Some Latin words don't even have an English equivalent, and vice versa. Additionally, there are a lot of similes and metaphors that aren't recognized by most readers. To this day, many people think,"Spare the rod... spoil the child.", is an endorsement for corporal punishment. It actually means, don't spank or whip children for misbehaving, reward them for behaving. It's just another way of saying give attention to your child for positive conduct instead of negative conduct. Something child psychologists have taken decades to endorse. Someone knew it all along. In any event, spirituality, of any kind, is what's important. Faith in something bigger than humans. If we knew who or what was the "right" one, there wouldn't be any more faith. We'd know the answers. You can't have faith without wonder. By definition, the word means believing and trusting in something for which there is NO PROOF. I had an argument with an evangelical Baptist once who told me Ghandi was going to Hell, because he wasn't Christian. I said, "You're telling me that the most peaceful, non-violent humanitarian to ever walk the planet, is doomed to suffering in Hell for eternity simply because he wasn't a Christian?" I just had to walk away. I can't even have a theological debate with someone that stupid. If being Christian is a prerequisite to getting into Heaven, there sure are a lot of beautiful, Christ-like souls missing. And if that's all it takes, there are a lot of undeserving souls taking up high-rent space. Personally, I've never heard of anyone who hasn't sinned. I think where your soul ends up is determined more by how you treat your fellow man, and making amends when possible. I also think you can find heaven (as a state of mind) while you're still alive, with spirituality. We were given a gift. What one does with his gift is what counts most. Whose prophet or messenger is right is inconsequential. Just my opinion.

[timNem]

All the proof I need is seeing the fingerprints of God everywhere. For example, the human body and its ability to reproduce, it has a built in central nervous system, lymphatic system, immune sytsem etc. that still baffle scientists. If it didn't, we would see cures for diseases today rather than treatments of symptoms. Could a Big Bang lead to something this complex? I don't think so, so therefore I must believe that there is a Creator. And if I believe there is a Creator then why would He have a Bible that would be inconsistent and shouldn't be held as literal?


The Baptist guy wasn't stupid he just believes what the Bible teaches: ANd Hindu doesn't teach this:

In John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18).


In Ephesians 2:8-9 the Bible says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."





Of course it can't. The Bible has been translated several times before finally being translated into English. Even the translation into English has different variations. Some Latin words don't even have an English equivalent, and vice versa. Additionally, there are a lot of similes and metaphors that aren't recognized by most readers. To this day, many people think,"Spare the rod... spoil the child.", is an endorsement for corporal punishment. It actually means, don't spank or whip children for misbehaving, reward them for behaving. It's just another way of saying give attention to your child for positive conduct instead of negative conduct. Something child psychologists have taken decades to endorse. Someone knew it all along. In any event, spirituality, of any kind, is what's important. Faith in something bigger than humans. If we knew who or what was the "right" one, there wouldn't be any more faith. We'd know the answers. You can't have faith without wonder. By definition, the word means believing and trusting in something for which there is NO PROOF. I had an argument with an evangelical Baptist once who told me Ghandi was going to Hell, because he wasn't Christian. I said, "You're telling me that the most peaceful, non-violent humanitarian to ever walk the planet, is doomed to suffering in Hell for eternity simply because he wasn't a Christian?" I just had to walk away. I can't even have a theological debate with someone that stupid. If being Christian is a prerequisite to getting into Heaven, there sure are a lot of beautiful, Christ-like souls missing. And if that's all it takes, there are a lot of undeserving souls taking up high-rent space. Personally, I've never heard of anyone who hasn't sinned. I think where your soul ends up is determined more by how you treat your fellow man, and making amends when possible. I also think you can find heaven (as a state of mind) while you're still alive, with spirituality. We were given a gift. What one does with his gift is what counts most. Whose prophet or messenger is right is inconsequential. Just my opinion.

[OmahaBound]

All the proof I need is seeing the fingerprints of God everywhere. For example, the human body and its ability to reproduce, it has a built in central nervous system, lymphatic system, immune sytsem etc. that still baffle scientists. If it didn't, we would see cures for diseases today rather than treatments of symptoms. Could a Big Bang lead to something this complex? I don't think so, so therefore I must believe that there is a Creator. And if I believe there is a Creator then why would He have a Bible that would be inconsistent and shouldn't be held as literal? ....

I know you're responding to gator, but as it applies to my beliefs I would say this...

The reason the Bible is inconsistent and shouldn't be taken literally is because I personally believe that God didn't write it. He may have directly inspired the authors, but it was man that wrote it and we all know that man is fallible. Simplistic explanation, but life doesn't always have to be hard, heh.

I agree with you about the human body though. I'm a medical student and while I still wouldn't call myself particularly religious, I can definitely say I became more confident in the existence of God after my gross anatomy class. Digging through all the arteries and nerves it's clear the body is one amazing puzzle that has been put together. Could it have happened randomly? It is certainly possible, but I don't believe so.

That doesn't mean the human form is perfect, however. Every body in that lab was filled with imperfections completely unrelated to cause of death. The only way to pass that class was to study each body before an exam because each is different and they were not above finding an oddity and questioning you on it. Some may see this as a sign of God creating us individually but to me that's a clear sign of how evolution is not only feasible but likely (and again, I stress that this doesn't mean God doesn't have his hand on the beginnings of evolution...personally I think he got the ball rolling and now we're living aspects of the experiment).

[roosterbooster]

I know you're responding to gator, but as it applies to my beliefs I would say this...

The reason the Bible is inconsistent and shouldn't be taken literally is because I personally believe that God didn't write it. He may have directly inspired the authors, but it was man that wrote it and we all know that man is fallible. Simplistic explanation, but life doesn't always have to be hard, heh.

I agree with you about the human body though. I'm a medical student and while I still wouldn't call myself particularly religious, I can definitely say I became more confident in the existence of God after my gross anatomy class. Digging through all the arteries and nerves it's clear the body is one amazing puzzle that has been put together. Could it have happened randomly? It is certainly possible, but I don't believe so.

That doesn't mean the human form is perfect, however. Every body in that lab was filled with imperfections completely unrelated to cause of death. The only way to pass that class was to study each body before an exam because each is different and they were not above finding an oddity and questioning you on it. Some may see this as a sign of God creating us individually but to me that's a clear sign of how evolution is not only feasible but likely (and again, I stress that this doesn't mean God doesn't have his hand on the beginnings of evolution...personally I think he got the ball rolling and now we're living aspects of the experiment).

So you don't believe God is capable of preserving His Word. So the ability of man to make errors is greater than the ability of God to preserve perfection. If that is true, it would follow that you believe the powers of imperfection in the world are greater than God's perfection.

[AUFootball24]

Does anyone actually believe Noah's ark is a literal true story?

[OmahaBound]

So you don't believe God is capable of preserving His Word. So the ability of man to make errors is greater than the ability of God to preserve perfection. If that is true, it would follow that you believe the powers of imperfection in the world are greater than God's perfection.

No, I believe God allows the imperfection to happen. If you believe God intended the world to be perfect then how do you explain the people brutally murdered every day throughout the world? You don't believe that Satan's power is greater than God's do you? Of course you do not! There is a gift of free will that God has bestowed upon us. Maybe it's partially a test to simply see how we will react, but mostly I feel it's a gift to let us be open and free without living life like zombies or slaves. Unfortunately we all make the wrong choices sometimes.

[timNem]

You see as inconsistencies but I see it as consistencies. There were many prophecies from the old testament that were fulfilled in the new testament that were confirmed by the historian (non-Biblical) Josephus. Just as the human body is complex, humans have made Christianity complex when it should be very simple. There are hundreds of denominations and even cults tied into it. Once, after being in an car accident and arriving to the hospital by ambulance, the paramedic asked me if I was religious and I answered "no, I am a Christian" . I don't think Heaven will be segregated into Baptist regions, Catholic regions, Pentecostal regions etc. If that is true and I'm certain it is, why should Christians be seperate here on earth? I believe it is that very reason why there are so much confusion and it results in people losing faith. Anywho....

Josephus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus)

I've heard some horror stories from my father-in-law about working on cadavers. I do not envy you. As far as I ever went was organs and that nearly made me faint.



I know you're responding to gator, but as it applies to my beliefs I would say this...

The reason the Bible is inconsistent and shouldn't be taken literally is because I personally believe that God didn't write it. He may have directly inspired the authors, but it was man that wrote it and we all know that man is fallible. Simplistic explanation, but life doesn't always have to be hard, heh.

I agree with you about the human body though. I'm a medical student and while I still wouldn't call myself particularly religious, I can definitely say I became more confident in the existence of God after my gross anatomy class. Digging through all the arteries and nerves it's clear the body is one amazing puzzle that has been put together. Could it have happened randomly? It is certainly possible, but I don't believe so.

That doesn't mean the human form is perfect, however. Every body in that lab was filled with imperfections completely unrelated to cause of death. The only way to pass that class was to study each body before an exam because each is different and they were not above finding an oddity and questioning you on it. Some may see this as a sign of God creating us individually but to me that's a clear sign of how evolution is not only feasible but likely (and again, I stress that this doesn't mean God doesn't have his hand on the beginnings of evolution...personally I think he got the ball rolling and now we're living aspects of the experiment).

[timNem]

Does anyone actually believe Noah's ark is a literal true story?There is no reason for me not to believe it. Just my .02

[AUFootball24]

There is no reason for me not to believe it. Just my .02

Refer to my post on page 2. There are quite a few reasons. :wacko:

[OmahaBound]

I've heard some horror stories from my father-in-law about working on cadavers. I do not envy you. As far as I ever went was organs and that nearly made me faint.

Haha, that's another aspect of life that I love....what you would hate to do I loved and what I would hate to do you or some of my friends undoubtedly love. The only really negative aspect was all the fat. My table lucked out and our cadaver was a gentleman that had been in pretty good shape...but there was still fat everywhere to pick through. Just imagine what it was like for those with an overweight individual.

Sorry if that made any of you queasy, hehe.

As for your response to my comments....I don't disagree with you at all about the complications of segregating Christianity. I know friends that completely lost their faith due to the corruption and petty fighting they've witnessed within their religious communities. As someone who personally does not believe Jesus is the only way to heaven, I would expand your statement to include all other religions as well(other than satanism of course). As a side note...I grew up in an Irish Catholic household in SC. I don't practice Catholicism anymore, but it still drives me insane when I hear people say "Christians and Catholics," hehe. If it was Protestants and Catholics I'd be fine with that, but that's definitely become a pet-peeve, hehe.

I think I'm pretty much done with this discussion since I have a ton of studying to do over the next 36 hrs, but I want to thank everyone for their civility and genuine interest in others opinions no matter how they differed....it's unfortunately quite rare these days. I definitely respect all of you and the choices you've made...best of luck to all.

[timNem]

Refer to my post on page 2. There are quite a few reasons. :wacko:Read the refutal to your post on #30 on the same page. Do you think there could be a remote possibility that the ark had more than one level and not all organisms that entered the boat were the size of elephants?

[AUFootball24]

Read the refutal to your post on #30 on the same page. Do you think there could be a remote possibility that the ark had more than one level and not all organisms that entered the boat were the size of elephants?

1. More than 1 level has no bearing on square footage, which is what I used. What you said doesn't even make sense there.

2. I used an avg. of 10 square feet for each animal to survive. Do you know how small 10 square feet is? Take a yardstick. Imagine a cube with those dimensions. That's 9 square feet, and it shouldn't even come up to your waist and should barely be wide enough for you to have wiggle room in.

10 sq. feet per animal is probably small. The size of elephants? Please! I used dimensions half the size of HUMANS.

What is your retort to that?

[timNem]

Good luck with your studies. We found out that it is possible to have a civil discussion on SEC talk with out getting bent out of control. But I still wouldn't be surprised if this turned into an Alabama/Auburn squabble. :laugh:

Haha, that's another aspect of life that I love....what you would hate to do I loved and what I would hate to do you or some of my friends undoubtedly love. The only really negative aspect was all the fat. My table lucked out and our cadaver was a gentleman that had been in pretty good shape...but there was still fat everywhere to pick through. Just imagine what it was like for those with an overweight individual.

Sorry if that made any of you queasy, hehe.

As for your response to my comments....I don't disagree with you at all about the complications of segregating Christianity. I know friends that completely lost their faith due to the corruption and petty fighting they've witnessed within their religious communities. As someone who personally does not believe Jesus is the only way to heaven, I would expand your statement to include all other religions as well(other than satanism of course).

I think I'm pretty much done with this discussion since I have a ton of studying to do over the next 36 hrs, but I want to thank everyone for their civility and genuine interest in others opinions no matter how they differed....it's unfortunately quite rare these days. I definitely respect all of you and the choices you've made...best of luck to all.

[gatorunvrsty]

All the proof I need is seeing the fingerprints of God everywhere. For example, the human body and its ability to reproduce, it has a built in central nervous system, lymphatic system, immune sytsem etc. that still baffle scientists. If it didn't, we would see cures for diseases today rather than treatments of symptoms. Could a Big Bang lead to something this complex? I don't think so, so therefore I must believe that there is a Creator. And if I believe there is a Creator then why would He have a Bible that would be inconsistent and shouldn't be held as literal?


The Baptist guy wasn't stupid he just believes what the Bible teaches: ANd Hindu doesn't teach this:

In John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18).


In Ephesians 2:8-9 the Bible says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

You can't take it as literal because humans with their own agendas wrote and translated it. First, the Bible we read isn't even the entire Bible. It's the books of the Bible that men chose to include for their own personal reasons. Second, as I pointed out, those English words you read aren't what was originally said, or reported by man to have been said. The original books of the Bible were written in Aramaic, translated into Latin, and then translated into English. The King James version is even less authentic, as it was translated again to satisfy the whims of Protestant royalty. The word "religion" in Latin doesn't even have anything to do with God or prayer. It's a word describing something that happens or that people do always at the same time. Hence the saying we eat dinner at 6:00 p.m. religiously. Or we go to the grocery store on Saturday religiously. The quotes you have written down may be what you choose to believe, and that's fine; but they aren't what was originally said. You know what happens to stories the more they're passed down? They end up not even resembling the original story. Why? Because men recount and rewrite stories with embellishments and exaggerations to make them more interesting. They change the writings slightly to fit their own personal ideas of morality. That's what Protestants are. True Christians would never get divorced. Divorce is the sole reason for the Anglican Church (Episcopal). King Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife and marry a prostitute he was having an affair with. The Catholic Church wouldn't allow it; so, he started his own church. My point is that the Bible we read today :

1. Isn't the entire Bible. It's a compilation of the books that certain MEN, not GOD, thought should be included.

2. Cannot be taken literally, as a matter of FACT. Not all the words of the Aramaic or Latin have a translation into English. Many of the words had to be translated as closely as possible, by MEN (not GOD), who could have been guessing their true meaning.

3. Any story that's been passed down for 2000 years has had more revisions than any of us could begin to contemplate. And they were passed down by word of mouth long before MEN (not GOD) decided to record them on paper.

4. The best evidence, yet, is that there are already hundreds of interpretations of the Bible or there wouldn't be more than one Christian religion. Each religion has seen it's founder, a MAN, change things about the meaning of parts of the Bible, to suit himself and his ideas.

That is why it can't be taken literally. Those aren't the words of GOD. They're some of the words of God, as recorded by MAN(some of whom had their own agendas), over a period of 2000 years, and through numerous translations of languages that don't have English equivalents. The best to hope for, is to take the ideas and principles set forth in the parts of the Bible we have at our disposal.

As far as Hindi; of course it doesn't teach that. I'm sure Ghandi wasn't worried about going to Heaven, because he didn't believe in it. My point is, if he was wrong, I don't think God is going to hold it against him that he wasn't raised in that religion. I'm pretty sure God wants people like Ghandi around. That's one of the metaphors I was referring to. I think what's meant by " No one comes to the Father except through ME", is that, only by following His example can one find God and reach Heaven. And Ghandi certainly did that. He did many of the exact same things Jesus did. He was more like Jesus than any other person I can think of, except Mother Theresa. If one took that phrase literally, then no one before the time of Jesus is in Heaven. And from Ephesians, all a man has accomplished is from the grace of God. He has no right to boast because God gave him the ability to do great things. Therefore, no man can say he deserves to be in Heaven because of all the worthwhile things he's done. He's done only what God has enabled him to do. To God goes the praise (Praise be to God).

[timNem]

Not looking to get into an arguement here, You compared it to the size of NYC, but that would be if it were only one level. If you pulled out all the blood veins from your body how far do you think you can stretch that out? If you take all the blood vessels out of a small child it would span 60000 miles. That doesn't seem possible either but its a fact. Since you know that it would be impossible to fit all these animals onto an ark this size and you have the proof, then tell me how it is possible to have 60000 miles of vein in a small child.

1. More than 1 level has no bearing on square footage, which is what I used. What you said doesn't even make sense there.

2. I used an avg. of 10 square feet for each animal to survive. Do you know how small 10 square feet is? Take a yardstick. Imagine a cube with those dimensions. That's 9 square feet, and it shouldn't even come up to your waist and should barely be wide enough for you to have wiggle room in.

10 sq. feet per animal is probably small. The size of elephants? Please! I used dimensions half the size of HUMANS.

What is your retort to that?

[roosterbooster]

Refer to my post on page 2. There are quite a few reasons. :wacko:

I would actually like to see you back up that flat planet thing. The only place this can even be implied is in the four corners of the earth reference in Revelation. However, this was a common phrase at the time of translation. Go to the original Greek and you will find the word means quarters. It is a totally different word than was used by Peter to refer to corners of a sheet. That reference also refers to the winds indicating it is referring to directions. Isaiah clearly refers to a round planet. When you get that one explain how the vessel in that story is the exact same scale length to width as todays super freighters. There is also very solid geographical evidence of a global flood. Species still exist today for which fossils have been found in that flood layer. How did they survive? Where does the Bible claim the earth is the geographical center of the universe? Go ahead back those statements up.

[timNem]

Do you think these are the same people who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

You can't take it as literal because humans with their own agendas wrote and translated it. First, the Bible we read isn't even the entire Bible. It's the books of the Bible that men chose to include for their own personal reasons. Second, as I pointed out, those English words you read aren't what was originally said, or reported by man to have been said. The original books of the Bible were written in Aramaic, translated into Latin, and then translated into English. The King James version is even less authentic, as it was translated again to satisfy the whims of Protestant royalty. The word "religion" in Latin doesn't even have anything to do with God or prayer. It's a word describing something that happens or that people do always at the same time. Hence the saying we eat dinner at 6:00 p.m. religiously. Or we go to the grocery store on Saturday religiously. The quotes you have written down may be what you choose to believe, and that's fine; but they aren't what was originally said. You know what happens to stories the more they're passed down? They end up not even resembling the original story. Why? Because men recount and rewrite stories with embellishments and exaggerations to make them more interesting. They change the writings slightly to fit their own personal ideas of morality. True Christians would never get divorced. Divorce is the sole reason for Protestantism. King Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife and marry a prostitute he was having an affair with. The Catholic Church wouldn't allow it; so, he started his own church. My point is that the Bible we read today :

1. Isn't the entire Bible. It's a compilation of the books that certain MEN, not GOD, thought should be included.

2. Cannot be taken literally, as a matter of FACT. Not all the words of the Aramaic or Latin have a translation into English. Many of the words had to be translated as closely as possible, by MEN (not GOD), who could have been guessing their true meaning.

3. Any story that's been passed down for 2000 years has had more revisions than any of us could begin to contemplate. And they were passed down by word of mouth long before MEN (not GOD) decided to record them on paper.

4. The best evidence, yet, is that there are already hundreds of interpretations of the Bible or there wouldn't be more than one Christian religion. Each religion has seen it's founder, a MAN, change things about the meaning of parts of the Bible, to suit himself and his ideas.

That is why it can't be taken literally. Those aren't the words of GOD. They're some of the words of God, as recorded by MAN(some of whom had their own agendas), over a period of 2000 years, and through numerous translations of languages that don't have English equivalents. The best to hope for, is to take the ideas and principles set forth in the parts of the Bible we have at our disposal.

As far as Hindi; of course it doesn't teach that. I'm sure Ghandi wasn't worried about going to Heaven, because he didn't believe in it. My point is, if he was wrong, I don't think God is going to hold it against him that he wasn't raised in that religion. I'm pretty sure God wants people like Ghandi around. That's one of the metaphors I was referring to. I think what's meant by " No one comes to the Father except through ME", is that, only by following His example can one find God and reach Heaven. And Ghandi certainly did that. He did many of the exact same things Jesus did. He was more like Jesus than any other person I can think of, except Mother Theresa. If one took that phrase literally, then no one before the time of Jesus is in Heaven. And from Ephesians, all a man has accomplished is from the grace of God. He has no right to boast because God gave him the ability to do great things. Therefore, no man can say he deserves to be in Heaven because of all the worthwhile things he's done. He's done only what God has enabled him to do. To God goes the praise (Praise be to God).

[roosterbooster]

Then where did the other animals he did not collect come from?

Don't say evolution, now.

Actually that one was going to help your argument. He did not take 2 of all the animals. That was an answer to your food issue. Go read Genesis and tell me how many he really took?

[roosterbooster]

No, I believe God allows the imperfection to happen. If you believe God intended the world to be perfect then how do you explain the people brutally murdered every day throughout the world? You don't believe that Satan's power is greater than God's do you? Of course you do not! There is a gift of free will that God has bestowed upon us. Maybe it's partially a test to simply see how we will react, but mostly I feel it's a gift to let us be open and free without living life like zombies or slaves. Unfortunately we all make the wrong choices sometimes.

But would he simply set us lose without a guide to tell us what he expects of us. That would be like playing a game without knowing the rules against the person who created the game. I've tried that with my 7 year old. It ain't easy.

[timNem]

But would he simply set us lose without a guide to tell us what he expects of us. That would be like playing a game without knowing the rules against the person who created the game. I've tried that with my 7 year old. It ain't easy.

Bingo.
We have a winner.

[roosterbooster]

You can't take it as literal because humans with their own agendas wrote and translated it. First, the Bible we read isn't even the entire Bible. It's the books of the Bible that men chose to include for their own personal reasons. Second, as I pointed out, those English words you read aren't what was originally said, or reported by man to have been said. The original books of the Bible were written in Aramaic, translated into Latin, and then translated into English. The King James version is even less authentic, as it was translated again to satisfy the whims of Protestant royalty. The word "religion" in Latin doesn't even have anything to do with God or prayer. It's a word describing something that happens or that people do always at the same time. Hence the saying we eat dinner at 6:00 p.m. religiously. Or we go to the grocery store on Saturday religiously. The quotes you have written down may be what you choose to believe, and that's fine; but they aren't what was originally said. You know what happens to stories the more they're passed down? They end up not even resembling the original story. Why? Because men recount and rewrite stories with embellishments and exaggerations to make them more interesting. They change the writings slightly to fit their own personal ideas of morality. That's what Protestants are. True Christians would never get divorced. Divorce is the sole reason for the Anglican Church (Episcopal). King Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife and marry a prostitute he was having an affair with. The Catholic Church wouldn't allow it; so, he started his own church. My point is that the Bible we read today :

1. Isn't the entire Bible. It's a compilation of the books that certain MEN, not GOD, thought should be included.

2. Cannot be taken literally, as a matter of FACT. Not all the words of the Aramaic or Latin have a translation into English. Many of the words had to be translated as closely as possible, by MEN (not GOD), who could have been guessing their true meaning.

3. Any story that's been passed down for 2000 years has had more revisions than any of us could begin to contemplate. And they were passed down by word of mouth long before MEN (not GOD) decided to record them on paper.

4. The best evidence, yet, is that there are already hundreds of interpretations of the Bible or there wouldn't be more than one Christian religion. Each religion has seen it's founder, a MAN, change things about the meaning of parts of the Bible, to suit himself and his ideas.

That is why it can't be taken literally. Those aren't the words of GOD. They're some of the words of God, as recorded by MAN(some of whom had their own agendas), over a period of 2000 years, and through numerous translations of languages that don't have English equivalents. The best to hope for, is to take the ideas and principles set forth in the parts of the Bible we have at our disposal.

As far as Hindi; of course it doesn't teach that. I'm sure Ghandi wasn't worried about going to Heaven, because he didn't believe in it. My point is, if he was wrong, I don't think God is going to hold it against him that he wasn't raised in that religion. I'm pretty sure God wants people like Ghandi around. That's one of the metaphors I was referring to. I think what's meant by " No one comes to the Father except through ME", is that, only by following His example can one find God and reach Heaven. And Ghandi certainly did that. He did many of the exact same things Jesus did. He was more like Jesus than any other person I can think of, except Mother Theresa. If one took that phrase literally, then no one before the time of Jesus is in Heaven. And from Ephesians, all a man has accomplished is from the grace of God. He has no right to boast because God gave him the ability to do great things. Therefore, no man can say he deserves to be in Heaven because of all the worthwhile things he's done. He's done only what God has enabled him to do. To God goes the praise (Praise be to God).

Go ahead and tell me what whims the protestant royalty satisfied in the King James translation.

[roosterbooster]

By the way, the NYC thing is nuts. The exact dimensions are in the instructions. Head down to your local port and just watch what they put on a dock one day and then look at the ship it came from.

[roosterbooster]

Those of you carrying this argument against the Bible seem to be using opinions not based on what is in the Bible. This makes me think you are not reading it but just looking at the opinions of others.

A. The 2 of every animal thing (common misconception, bet you think Eve ate an apple too.)

B. Flat Earth. Not in the Bible, ask Isaiah.

C. Earth is center of the Universe. Nope. Not in the Bible. It is kind of curious science can never pin point what the universe revolves around. They should open one of those books they discredit and they would see it is God.

If you are going to argue against the validity of the Bible don't just tell me the Bible says, it has this real neat system of verses and chapters and you can point me right to the verse you are referencing.

[GatorHunter]

I think it is impossible for any man who truly believes what he claims to go to hell.

I have my beliefs. They don't mirror Christianity, but I do recognize and respect it. The point is, I truly believe what I practice. It's how I am. It's how God made me.

Will I get sent to hell for that? I'm not trying to defy God by not being a devout Christian. I'm not trying to make excuses for why I'm too lazy to live a Christian life. I really, truly believe in my beliefs, I'm not trying to do anything wrong, just what seems right to me.

God made me. God made me how I am. I am confident God will not send me to hell for that. Don't take this wrong and think I don't believe in personal accountability. You can't always fall back on the 'God made me this way' claim.

Assuming eternal life exists, my time on earth is infinitely small. I am infinitely young and know infinitely little.

Would a compassionate and understanding God send me to eternal hell for messing up and infinitely small period of my existence?

God gave you "free will"...he did make you, he did make you the way you are, but he isn't responsible for what or how you "believe." That's what free will is...it's your choice to believe or not to...there's no in-between.

[OmahaBound]

Those of you carrying this argument against the Bible seem to be using opinions not based on what is in the Bible. This makes me think you are not reading it but just looking at the opinions of others.

A. The 2 of every animal thing (common misconception, bet you think Eve ate an apple too.)

B. Flat Earth. Not in the Bible, ask Isaiah.

C. Earth is center of the Universe. Nope. Not in the Bible. It is kind of curious science can never pin point what the universe revolves around. They should open one of those books they discredit and they would see it is God.

If you are going to argue against the validity of the Bible don't just tell me the Bible says, it has this real neat system of verses and chapters and you can point me right to the verse you are referencing.

rooster, you're asking someone to prove the Bible wrong. if it could be done with a couple of quotes it would have happened long before any of us were born. but the fact is you can't prove the Bible is truly the word of God either. you believe it to be, and that is your right. others do not, and that is their right too. this is an unwinnable debate, and simply an interesting discussion of varying viewpoints.

[roosterbooster]

rooster, you're asking someone to prove the Bible wrong. if it could be done with a couple of quotes it would have happened long before any of us were born. but the fact is you can't prove the Bible is truly the word of God either. you believe it to be, and that is your right. others do not, and that is their right too. this is an unwinnable debate, and simply an interesting discussion of varying viewpoints.

I didn't say prove the Bible wrong. I said if you are going to level accusations against it back them up. The Bible does not claim the earth to be flat, the earth to be the center of the universe, and there were not 2 of each animal on the ark. I gave my scripture reference of Isaiah saying the world was round and the number of animals Noah took. I was just asking for the references for the other side of the argument.

[GatorHunter]

The Bible is full of "literal" and "symbolic" references...people like to use the symbolic references to dispute what is actually being "said"...

There are plenty of "good" people in the world...they follow the laws of the land, are kind to others, mostly doing the "right thing"....however, unless these "people" are washed in the blood of Jesus Christ by accepting Christ into their hearts, they're not saved and will not go to Heaven. That is my belief and the belief that I feel the Bible portrays. I'm not saying it's right for everybody or every religion...but in my life, it holds true...I live it and feel it everyday.

[gatorunvrsty]

Do you think these are the same people who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

I don't know. I don't know if they're the original writings or not. And neither does anybody else. I know they aren't the first telling of the stories. That's part of the problem. There are too many people doing the recording. It's inevitable, really. It's the same as if I whispered a story about Jim Bob sleeping with Mary Sue to you at one end of a cafeteria table and told you to pass it on. By the time it got to the end of the table, and 50 re-tellings, it'd be a story about Sue marrying Jimmy, even though she slept with Bob.:laugh: Just a little example of how bad stories get mixed up after only a few re-tellings. And that's by accident. Nobody knows how many times those stories were told before it occurred to someone or some people to write them down. You can imagine how much further the story could get changed by 1 man intentionally making additions or omissions that he doesn't agree with. That one man makes a change, and re-prints 100 copies of the story. Then another man comes along and changes the parts he doesn't like, and re-prints another 1000 copies with the changes from the last guy, plus his own new ones. Then a translator comes along and tries to re-write the stories in his language. But, there's a problem. There are words in the original text that don't translate into his language. They may be regional dialect. Who knows? Well, he does the best he can and just tries to capture the essence of what's being said, in his opinion. And, since he's already making changes, he might as well change this one little thing that bothers him, personally. This guy prints 10,000 copies of his translation, plus all the additions from the first 2 guys and his own. See what I'm getting at? That's why I just try to follow what I believe to be the principles contained in the Bible. Just doing that is hard enough for me, especially with fewer and fewer people trying to follow suit. I look at the Bible as a guide, not a law book. By this time, too many people with less than honorable intentions, have had their hand in its publication. I love the ideals and agree with them. I just don't believe everything I read. Especially when mortal men claim they are the words of God. There's never been any shortage of prophets out there who claim to have been visited by God. I happen to believe the majority of what the Bible says, but I can't take it literally because MAN is fallible.:thumpsup:

[gatorunvrsty]

The Bible is full of "literal" and "symbolic" references...people like to use the symbolic references to dispute what is actually being "said"...

There are plenty of "good" people in the world...they follow the laws of the land, are kind to others, mostly doing the "right thing"....however, unless these "people" are washed in the blood of Jesus Christ by accepting Christ into their hearts, they're not saved and will not go to Heaven. That is my belief and the belief that I feel the Bible portrays. I'm not saying it's right for everybody or every religion...but in my life, it holds true...I live it and feel it everyday.

I'm not trying to be a smart@$$, but what happened to all the people before Christ? Or what about the people who've never heard of, or been exposed to, Christ? Is someone in the depths of the Amazon or Sahara, who are unfamiliar with anything outside their region, not a child of God? Are they beyond redemption because they've never been exposed to Christianity?

[OmahaBound]

Is someone in the depths of the Amazon or Sahara, who are unfamiliar with anything outside their region, not a child of God. Are they beyond redemption because they've never been exposed to Christianity?

I've asked that question before as well. The response from the individuals I asked was simply, "that's why it's our job to spread the word to everyone so that they may be saved." After forcing the issue a little more they admitted that if these individuals haven't heard of Christ that they too would likely not be saved. My guess is not all literalists believe that way but I may be wrong.

[gatorunvrsty]

I've asked that question before as well. The response from the individuals I asked was simply, "that's why it's our job to spread the word to everyone so that they may be saved." After forcing the issue a little more they admitted that if these individuals haven't heard of Christ that they too would likely not be saved. My guess is not all literalists believe that way but I may be wrong.

Well, I sure am glad my God wouldn't create life, knowing in advance that their souls would spend eternity in Hell. Those kind of Christians are no different than extremist Muslims. They think their way is the only way. My God frowns on people who put themselves above other human beings simply because of their beliefs.

[timNem]

Well, I sure am glad my God wouldn't create life, knowing in advance that their souls would spend eternity in Hell. Those kind of Christians are no different than extremist Muslims. They think their way is the only way. My God frowns on people who put themselves above other human beings simply because of their beliefs.If a person ends up in Hell its not because God sent them, its because they chose not to accept Christ. You're not in Hell because of punishment, it is Hell because you are seperated from God. When Jesus was being crucified and cried out in a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"? that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"? Through the pain and suffereing he experienced that day none of that would even compare to when God turned away from him and God turned away from him because Christ took the sin of the world that day upon himself.

[timNem]

If God is God then wouldn't he be capable of revealing Himself to them as he did Abraham and others and that was an old covenant. When Jesus was crucified the veil in temple was ripped in half signifying the availabilty for everyone and not just the Levite high Priest. This was the new covenant with man in which wiped away the sins of all who accepted Christ. Before that, man had to live accorrding to the Law of Moses, the covenant with Abraham etc.

I'm not trying to be a smart@$$, but what happened to all the people before Christ? Or what about the people who've never heard of, or been exposed to, Christ? Is someone in the depths of the Amazon or Sahara, who are unfamiliar with anything outside their region, not a child of God? Are they beyond redemption because they've never been exposed to Christianity?

[AUFootball24]

Actually that one was going to help your argument. He did not take 2 of all the animals. That was an answer to your food issue. Go read Genesis and tell me how many he really took?

If he didn't take all the animals, and evolution is fake, where have all the species he didn't take come from?

Aliens? Did they just pop out of no where?

[AUFootball24]

By the way, the NYC thing is nuts. The exact dimensions are in the instructions. Head down to your local port and just watch what they put on a dock one day and then look at the ship it came from.

Re-phrase that, it went over my head I suppose. Animals require space to live, my man. Cargo does not.

You're trying to defy physics here. Things don't magically shrink when you place the aboard a ship, and they don't magically grow when you put them on the dock.

10 sq. feet is 10 sq. feet.

[AUFootball24]

God gave you "free will"...he did make you, he did make you the way you are, but he isn't responsible for what or how you "believe." That's what free will is...it's your choice to believe or not to...there's no in-between.

That's what I'm saying. What I believe is not my choice, it's actually what I believe!

I tried as hard as I possibly could to be a Christian. I claimed to be one. I was extremely active in the church and even did missionary work in other nations.

It didn't click. I never truely believed. I tried as hard as I could. That was my free will.

My beliefs are my belifs. It's what makes sense to me. Not by choice, that's just how it is.

I'd rather be Chrstian. I'd rather have complete comfort in where I'm going when I die.

But if I claimed to be a true Chrstian, I'd be a liar, becaues I never really believed in it no matter how much of my life I devoted to it.

Trying was my free will. Not being able to believe it is the way I am, I have no control over what does and doesn't make sense to me.

[AUFootball24]

Well, I sure am glad my God wouldn't create life, knowing in advance that their souls would spend eternity in Hell. Those kind of Christians are no different than extremist Muslims. They think their way is the only way. My God frowns on people who put themselves above other human beings simply because of their beliefs.

Your God is a thinking man's God. A rational Man's God.

The God of those you speak about is a blind man's God. A man who doesn't think for himself's God.

[roosterbooster]

Re-phrase that, it went over my head I suppose. Animals require space to live, my man. Cargo does not.

You're trying to defy physics here. Things don't magically shrink when you place the aboard a ship, and they don't magically grow when you put them on the dock.

10 sq. feet is 10 sq. feet.

Where did you pull your 10 square feet from. Does a mouse need 10 sq feet as well. I have a 25lb dog that when I travel is in a 1X2.5 kennel. She could probably survive that way if necessary. How many of those species are microscopic, insects, or can live in water. How do we know how many species there were in Noah's age. That 25 lb dog is a Boykin Spaniel. A breed which originated in SC in the last 100 years. Not through evolution but through breeding. How do we know each genus (probably about 8000) was not preserved and expanded through that type of cross breeding. Of those 8000 many would have lived in water and many again microscopic or insects. Based on the actual dimensions of the ark as stated in the Bible it was 1.5 million cubic feet. So how much vertical space do most of those animals need. How many can you think of that would have to have more than 10 feet vertically. I don't know how Noah did it. It could have been through stacking crates, multiple levels within decks, there are plausible explanations.

As to the number of animals you still don't know what I am talking about which leads me to believe you have not bothered to read the story, you have just latched onto someone elses opinion who has. If that was not the case you would know that there were not 2 of each animal on the ark. Try reading Genesis 7.

I am still waiting for your scriptural reference about the world being flat and the earth being the center of the universe. You have not found your answer because works will never be the answer. It begins with studying the word of God. As to the world being round who revealed that to Isaiah and to Job. How did 2 men in 2 completely different times make this discovery before Columbus. Maybe Noah told them.

[roosterbooster]

I'm not trying to be a smart@$$, but what happened to all the people before Christ? Or what about the people who've never heard of, or been exposed to, Christ? Is someone in the depths of the Amazon or Sahara, who are unfamiliar with anything outside their region, not a child of God? Are they beyond redemption because they've never been exposed to Christianity?

For your first question read Luke 16. Scripture clearly does state Abraham was saved through his FAITH and righteousness. There is a belief that is hinted at in scripture that it may be possible that those who live a righteous life by other faiths will go to the place referred to in Luke 16 and have the opportunity to be witnessed to by Jesus. Again, that is not in concrete in scripture but many infer this from several passages.

By the way, Jesus gave us the job of spreading his gospel to those people. There is no one who is not a child of God.

[roosterbooster]

Well, I sure am glad my God wouldn't create life, knowing in advance that their souls would spend eternity in Hell. Those kind of Christians are no different than extremist Muslims. They think their way is the only way. My God frowns on people who put themselves above other human beings simply because of their beliefs.

Who here has put themselves above anyone else. I didn't say my way was the only way, Jesus said He was the way and I believe Him. If you don't believe that part of Jesus' teachings what do you believe about him? So you are saying God is unjust because He disapproves of people who don't accept the gift of His Son dying for them. What if your sons blood could save millions of people dying of a horrible disease. Painfully you allowed the physicians to use this blood which resulted in his death, and no one would take the vaccine. How would you feel?

[Williams-Brice]

Yes, the same one that claims Noah found 2 of every animal, got them all on a boat, and sailed the great flood.

Do you realize how many 2 of every animal is? There are an estimated 10 million species on our planet, and Smithsonian recently estimated there may be well over 30 million. Since evolution is clearly fake (:wacko:), Noah was responsible for finding all of these species, as the 'great flood' wiped out everything not on the boat.

He had to find 2 of each. One male, one female. With virtually NO means of advanced communication or transportation, I'll be extremely generous and give him an estimated 1 month average to find each animal, some obviously taking longer than others.

I happen to be a Christian who also believes in evolution. I don't believe we came from another species, but I do believe that things change over time and that new species arise. You've got several things that can lead to this, like allopatric speciation. I believe that, first of all, Noah didn't have to do anything to get the animals on the boat. I believe God sent them to Noah and his family by altering things, like the animals' circadian rhythm, which leads many animals to migrate. Thus, Noah didn't have to go all over the earth and find these animals. They were led to him. Second, because I believe that (GASP!) God and science can actually coexist, I believe that the animals that were on Noah's ark changed over time. New species and subspecies branched off of ones that already existed, and now you have many, many more today than you had all those years ago.

If you go into Biblical situations like this one with a contemporary understanding of the world, then it's hard to see how things like this (Jonah, Noah, Christ) could have happened. If you go into it with faith being your viewpoint and you mix some science in with it, then a lot of begins to make sense. However, it's not supposed to make sense. If it all made sense, then it wouldn't require faith.

[gatorunvrsty]

If God is God then wouldn't he be capable of revealing Himself to them as he did Abraham and others and that was an old covenant. When Jesus was crucified the veil in temple was ripped in half signifying the availabilty for everyone and not just the Levite high Priest. This was the new covenant with man in which wiped away the sins of all who accepted Christ. Before that, man had to live accorrding to the Law of Moses, the covenant with Abraham etc.

Exactly. If God is able to do all that and still doesn't, then it must not be a prerequisite for humanity to follow Christian doctrine in order to reach salvation. When these words are used to describe what man need do in order to find God, we all naturally assume MAN = mankind, so that it includes women. Has it ocurred to anyone that MAN might also only include mankind of a certain region of the world needs to follow these certain laws? That mankind in other regions of the world have their own rules and laws they must follow to find God. Many of these laws would be impossible for people of other regions to follow. If it was God's plan to reach all people with the same set of beliefs, that's what would have happened. No, I'm afraid I'm going to have to believe that salvation comes to all the people of the world who live by the principles and values contained in their culture. I refuse to believe someone like Jefferey Dahmer can torture other innocent people all his life, and find redemption simply by accepting Jesus Christ the night before he was beaten to death. This is one of the contradictions people find so vexing in Christianity. Either one spends his life following the laws of God to find salvation, or he spends his life doing whatever he wants until the 11th hour and accepts Christ right before his death to escape Hell. It can't be both ways. That's why I try to follow the essence and the principles. If I believed I had a get out of Hell free card, I'd be free to treat other people any way I wanted without fear of the repercussions. All people sin because all humans make mistakes; but I will never believe in wholesale forgiveness for the truly wicked simply by accepting Christ into what's left of their life.

[roosterbooster]

Exactly. If God is able to do all that and still doesn't, then it must not be a prerequisite for humanity to follow Christian doctrine in order to reach salvation. When these words are used to describe what man need do in order to find God, we all naturally assume MAN = mankind, so that it includes women. Has it ocurred to anyone that MAN might also only include mankind of a certain region of the world needs to follow these certain laws? That mankind in other regions of the world have their own rules and laws they must follow to find God. Many of these laws would be impossible for people of other regions to follow. If it was God's plan to reach all people with the same set of beliefs, that's what would have happened. No, I'm afraid I'm going to have to believe that salvation comes to all the people of the world who live by the principles and values contained in their culture. I refuse to believe someone like Jefferey Dahmer can torture other innocent people all his life, and find redemption simply by accepting Jesus Christ the night before he was beaten to death. This is one of the contradictions people find so vexing in Christianity. Either one spends his life following the laws of God to find salvation, or he spends his life doing whatever he wants until the 11th hour and accepts Christ right before his death to escape Hell. It can't be both ways. That's why I try to follow the essence and the principles. If I believed I had a get out of Hell free card, I'd be free to treat other people any way I wanted without fear of the repercussions. All people sin because all humans make mistakes; but I will never believe in wholesale forgiveness for the truly wicked simply by accepting Christ into what's left of their life.

Christ says his teachings are for all people, Jew and Gentile alike, and one of the last things he said on earth was for me and you to spread that word to all nations. It is our failure that it is not done, not His. There really is no middle ground here. That is something I have long pondered with the Jewish faith. I do not understand how anyone can believe Jesus was a great teacher and not the Son of God. He was either who he said he was, or the greatest con man in the history of the world. There is no middle ground on that issue. You believe him or you don't.

[roosterbooster]

Well, I sure am glad my God wouldn't create life, knowing in advance that their souls would spend eternity in Hell. Those kind of Christians are no different than extremist Muslims. They think their way is the only way. My God frowns on people who put themselves above other human beings simply because of their beliefs.

Who said God created life knowing the souls would be condemned. Again I ask you to back that up with scripture. There is free will. God knows what we will do before we do it, but I do believe our choices determine what our fate will be. I believe God knows what we will do before we do it, however, I don't think our fate is sealed when he breaths life into us.

[roosterbooster]

Exactly. If God is able to do all that and still doesn't, then it must not be a prerequisite for humanity to follow Christian doctrine in order to reach salvation. When these words are used to describe what man need do in order to find God, we all naturally assume MAN = mankind, so that it includes women. Has it ocurred to anyone that MAN might also only include mankind of a certain region of the world needs to follow these certain laws? That mankind in other regions of the world have their own rules and laws they must follow to find God. Many of these laws would be impossible for people of other regions to follow. If it was God's plan to reach all people with the same set of beliefs, that's what would have happened. No, I'm afraid I'm going to have to believe that salvation comes to all the people of the world who live by the principles and values contained in their culture. I refuse to bel