Why do men hate going to church?

[GamecockinIL]

Fellow posters,

I am asking for your help. :help: I am a rabid Gamecock fan and attended there in the early 80s. I served in the US Army (INFANTRY) after that and then went into the business world. A few years ago, I made a radical transition in my life and entered full-time ministry. I am now in Peoria, IL pastoring/building a church from scratch. Hard but fulfilling work.

Here's where I'm asking for your help. On any given Sunday, there are 13 million more women than men attending church across America. Obviously, something is SERIOUSLY wrong. Guys who grow up attending church on a regular basis, abandon it in huge numbers (upwards of 75% - 80%).

As the planter of a brand new church, I have the freedom to create and lead something that looks much different from a typical church. I want to create an environment that is inviting, challenging, and rewarding for men.

So I have two questions that I would deeply appreciate any input on.

1. Why do men hate going to church? What are the obstacles, hurdles, problems, objections that many of you (or any other guys you know) have when it comes to attending church (or even giving church a try)?

2. What would appeal to you? What would intrigue you? What would a church look like, feel like, that would interest you and hold your attention?

I am serious about your input. If you've ever wanted to complain about the problems that you see in church, :argue: or what you would like to see in church (specifically as it relates to you, i.e., men), then this is your chance. Your insight will help me as I seek to create an environment that men can relate to.

If any of you would like to respond privately, please feel free to pm me. This is not a flaming thread. :flaming: I will not criticize or critique any response, and I'm asking that no one else do it either. I'm actually looking for problems/suggestions. Bring them on. Thanks in advance. :thumbs:

[RW13]

I'll give you an honest answer, men are more about facts and reality, women are more likely to accept things and are emotional in nature. (Yes these are generalizations, and no, I'm not saying women are dumber) I think to appeal to men, churches need to be more flexible, some of the stuff that is said it church is very hard to believe in the year 2006 when so many people are educated and have access to information and history. Alot of the stuff in the bible is outlandish, etc. and very 1st millenium A.D. I would suggest changing some of the teaching habits and maybe not using the old Fear Tactics of the bible, use more modern day andecdotes/stories, etc. Also, personally (I know many of you disagree), I would suggest moving more towards an "active" church, where instead of sitting and listening to how FAGS and QUEERS are gonna ruin the world, the congregation instead spends sunday mornings working on building a house, running a soup kitchen, adopting a highway, volunteering at a hospital, etc etc etc. Action would appeal to me and make me feel I'm doing something good and worthwhile, and I know alot of other Males would feel more welcome in an "active" environment. BTW, I wanna say good idea and I'm glad that you're willing to take suggestions and new ideas, I wish more pastors/priests/etc would follow your lead....

[OmahaBound]

Fellow posters,

I am asking for your help. :help: I am a rabid Gamecock fan and attended there in the early 80s. I served in the US Army (INFANTRY) after that and then went into the business world. A few years ago, I made a radical transition in my life and entered full-time ministry. I am now in Peoria, IL pastoring/building a church from scratch. Hard but fulfilling work.

Here's where I'm asking for your help. On any given Sunday, there are 13 million more women than men attending church across America. Obviously, something is SERIOUSLY wrong. Guys who grow up attending church on a regular basis, abandon it in huge numbers (upwards of 75% - 80%).

As the planter of a brand new church, I have the freedom to create and lead something that looks much different from a typical church. I want to create an environment that is inviting, challenging, and rewarding for men.

So I have two questions that I would deeply appreciate any input on.

1. Why do men hate going to church? What are the obstacles, hurdles, problems, objections that many of you (or any other guys you know) have when it comes to attending church (or even giving church a try)?

2. What would appeal to you? What would intrigue you? What would a church look like, feel like, that would interest you and hold your attention?

I am serious about your input. If you've ever wanted to complain about the problems that you see in church, :argue: or what you would like to see in church (specifically as it relates to you, i.e., men), then this is your chance. Your insight will help me as I seek to create an environment that men can relate to.

If any of you would like to respond privately, please feel free to pm me. This is not a flaming thread. :flaming: I will not criticize or critique any response, and I'm asking that no one else do it either. I'm actually looking for problems/suggestions. Bring them on. Thanks in advance. :thumbs:

i'm not a very religious person, but i grew up in a fairly religious family and attended mass every week for most of my life. the most important thing for me was humor. the best priests i ever had (and the same would obviously go for preachers/ministers/etc) were ones that would make church fun/entertaining/humorous whenever possible. obviously there are going to be moments when cracking jokes is inappropriate, but i don't see why praising god can't be fun in general. rick warren might be the most famous preacher in america these days and he seems to wear those hawaiian shirts everywhere and always seems to have a humorous story to share. i don't know if you're a funny guy, but if you are i would take advantage of that to try and create a christ-loving atmosphere that is also fun....much easier to pay attention that way.

i think guys in general are stubborn and don't want to be told what they're doing wrong, but if they can learn the same lessons through a humorous anecdote they'll be far more likely to return the following week.

[autiger1126]

I think a lot of people were forced to go at a young age, and during the middle years (13-16) church was a place to be social so people enjoyed it. By the time your parents let you become independent and make your own choices and have a vehicle, a lot of people abandon the social interaction at church and go elsewhere. Also, it's tough to get up early in the morning for some people, especially after a saturday night of having fun with friends. Of course when you're in college it's even harder.

By this time you've already got your habits in life set, and it's hard to break habits. Most men probably don't go back and attend church regularly unless they attend it with a girlfriend or wife. So if you're interested in getting more men to attend church, you need to appeal to the single guys and girls to get them to come. Also, there needs to be some interesting topics that guys can enjoy as well as interaction with other guys after church, so they can get acquainted with the community. I think that sports like volleyball, softball etc. is a good way to keep some interested as well as bar-b-ques or monthly parties.

[Dawgfish]

I've been active in a church for over 16 yrs now. I can't imagine life without it. It's food for the soul. You wouldn't try going through life without eating real food now would ya?

[GamecockinIL]

I've been active in a church for over 16 yrs now. I can't imagine life without it. It's food for the soul. You wouldn't try going through life without eating real food now would ya?

Dawg...great for you. I appreciate your enthusiasm and commitment to church. But many men who are active in church have lost perspective on why men who DON'T attend church stay home. Something's missing. Something's wrong for far too many men.

I commend your dedication, but I challenge you to look around your church this Sunday and count noses. I promise you, you'll probably find a nearly 60/40 split between men and women.

I want to figure out how to connect to those guys that need what we have to offer, but are missing out because we've gotten stuck in ruts and habits that keep them from coming.

Keep watching this thread. This will be a great eye-opener for a lot of us.

[Dawgfish]

1. Why do men hate going to church? What are the obstacles, hurdles, problems, objections that many of you (or any other guys you know) have when it comes to attending church (or even giving church a try)?

It has been my observation that most men feel church members are unable to follow through on a daily basis with how they try to act on Sunday. (hippocritical) Well I have rubbed shoulders all my life with hippocrits in the grocery store, at the mall, and at every ballgame I have ever been to and I think there is plenty of room in church for a few more.


2. What would appeal to you? What would intrigue you? What would a church look like, feel like, that would interest you and hold your attention?

Church, when I went with my parents as a kid was just too dry and legalistic. As an adult I searched until I found a church that had cool music, a pastor that could sit and talk to me as a friend, and a place I felt comfortable. There are plenty of churches in every city all accross the U.S. and with a little luck everyone can find a place of spiritual refuge.

When I was in my drinking days there were plenty of watering holes for every type of person out there with a few dollars to spend. I think nowadays it's not that hard to find a church for everyone as well. Just because you didn't find the right one on the first try doesn't mean you should give up. Did you give up when you didn't like the looks of the people inside the bar you went to for the first time or did ya just try another one? Or did ya just keep going until they knew your name and you felt like you fit in?

[LedCock]

Having a relaxed atmosphere helps in many cases. A lot of guys don't like the idea of putting on a suit and tie to go to church. I've seen many churches thrive because they encourage people to come no matter how they are dressed. If a guy doesn't wear a suit and tie during the week, he isn't going to want to put one on his day off. Advertising activities like barbeques and trips lets people know you're not all about scorning them either.

[CockyTatGuy]

As a guy, who grew up in church and went to Christian school, I hafta say that the reason I don't go as much as I should is because I am lazy. I work really hard during the week, which I know isn't an excuse, and I just want to lay around and go to Sunday night service. Another thing I have found lately is that even though I don't go as often as I should, I still like the old "singing and shouting, preaching and praying" services. I am trying to find a woman I can settle down and have a family with but the young people (20-25 year olds) just don't like the old style anymore.

[blues_cap]

i think churches should offer a mid-week night service. one of the reasons you are missing out on the single male population is b/c this is a very active population, particularly on the weekends. their weekends are full and they choose to do other things than designate a time for church.

a wednesday night service may come as a stress releiver to many men and also the personal fulfillment many seek by going to church once a week.

[rebeldude]

I honestly do not know why men are not coming, I love my Church, I am very active and I am there every time the doors open. Wouldn't trade it for anything. After this thread was started, I really got to thinking about it..(if that is possible) and concluded I just don't know and really can't imagine it. I found this site. It has a message board where Pastors are actually discussing this topic. Hope you get the answers you need, and good luck on your new Church. I am in the construction business, I know what you will be going through for the next several months, I do it every day.



http://www.churchformen.com/leaders.php

[rebeldude]

I'll give you an honest answer, men are more about facts and reality, women are more likely to accept things and are emotional in nature. (Yes these are generalizations, and no, I'm not saying women are dumber) I think to appeal to men, churches need to be more flexible, some of the stuff that is said it church is very hard to believe in the year 2006 when so many people are educated and have access to information and history. Alot of the stuff in the bible is outlandish, etc. and very 1st millenium A.D. I would suggest changing some of the teaching habits and maybe not using the old Fear Tactics of the bible, use more modern day andecdotes/stories, etc. Also, personally (I know many of you disagree), I would suggest moving more towards an "active" church, where instead of sitting and listening to how FAGS and QUEERS are gonna ruin the world, the congregation instead spends sunday mornings working on building a house, running a soup kitchen, adopting a highway, volunteering at a hospital, etc etc etc. Action would appeal to me and make me feel I'm doing something good and worthwhile, and I know alot of other Males would feel more welcome in an "active" environment. BTW, I wanna say good idea and I'm glad that you're willing to take suggestions and new ideas, I wish more pastors/priests/etc would follow your lead....

RW, I don't think it has anything to do with Facts and reality, I mean nothing is more real than Jesus Christ, I think it has to do with Macho Macho Man. I wanna be your macho man :laugh: :laugh:

[RW13]

not sure I follow, is church missing the Village People? (j/k)

[GamecockinIL]

I honestly do not know why men are not coming, I love my Church, I am very active and I am there every time the doors open. Wouldn't trade it for anything. After this thread was started, I really got to thinking about it..(if that is possible) and concluded I just don't know and really can't imagine it. I found this site. It has a message board where Pastors are actually discussing this topic. Hope you get the answers you need, and good luck on your new Church. I am in the construction business, I know what you will be going through for the next several months, I do it every day.

http://www.churchformen.com/leaders.php

Rebel....

I appreciate your response. I have noticed in other threads that you have participated in that you have a healthy view of God and scripture.

I am particularly excited that you noted the churchformen website. Dave Murrow, the author of the book and website, has become my friend. We actually had our grand opening in September with Dave on hand. Check out this link...

http://www.churchformen.com/eNewsletter%20archives/01October05.html

I feel like we are pioneering something that is desparately needed. But as with any pioneering effort, there aren't many established roads to follow. So we're still in the process of trying to figure out what this looks like.

Having been on this board for a while now, I felt like the guys here would be able to shed some much needed light on the problem.

Men who have been attending church for years have a hard time figuring out what's missing. It's the old frog in the kettle syndrome. But there clearly is a disconnect for most men.

I truly appreciate guys posting their thoughts and opinions on this subject here. It's going to be a HUGE help for me.

[azamugg]

first of all I am an Professional Educator of Adults mainly in the Real Estate and Mortgage industries and am very popular because no matter how often I teach these subjects I teach them w/humour and PASSION w/real life anecdotes

A problem w/alot of churches is the pastor/preacher/minister is bland and boring or that person has an air that he is superior to others.

[OmahaBound]

first of all I am an Professional Educator of Adults mainly in the Real Estate and Mortgage industries and am very popular because no matter how often I teach these subjects I teach them w/humour and PASSION w/real life anecdotes

A problem w/alot of churches is the pastor/preacher/minister is bland and boring or that person has an air that he is superior to others.

very popular, huh?

i suppose someone's self-esteem is mighty healthy these days. :p

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

<-------------Enjoys going to church

I enjoy going to church. I am 45-years old and have been involved in churches all my life, with the following exception. About 20 years ago I got out of the habit of going to church and felt like something major was missing in my life. I started going back and filled that void. My Sunday includes the following: teaching Sunday School (7th-9th graders), attending worship service (singing in the choir and about once a month playing my trumpet with our pianist for the offertory), and then enjoying a Sunday afternoon meal at a local restaurant with the family. I also generally go to church on Wednesday evenings, and eat a meal and attend/teach Bible classes. For me, I wouldn't change a thing, as I enjoy being at church (not having any family in the area, most of my close friends in this area have either been made through church or through playing tennis)

Many churches around my area have gone to a praise and worship type service (singing contemporary Christian music, relaxed dress, etc.). My church is a relatively small, country-style church, but offers a contemporary service and a traditional-style service. Although I enjoy listening to contemporary Christian music in my car and at home, I really enjoy a traditional style church service more, and that is the service I attend. Both services allow relaxed dress, and you may see some congregational members in a suit, and others in blue jeans and a tee-shirt. Both are acceptable, and I'm usually in between. I would guess that our congregation on any given Sunday is about 50% men and 50% women.

What appeals to me about the church I'm in now is the relaxed atmosphere. When I first moved here, my family and I joined a large, formal church (we were members there for about 4 or 5 years). If you didn't wear a suit, you were sort of looked down on. Although we dressed appropriately, we never really felt comfortable there (people seemed a little too judgmental for me, etc.), and we started looking for a new church home. We happened to visit this small, country church only about 3 miles from our home (the one I mentioned above), and that is our church home now. We've been members there for 5 years and couldn't be happier.

[azamugg]

very popular, huh?

i suppose someone's self-esteem is mighty healthy these days. :p

very popular was my humble way of not saying that I'm the largest provider of Real Estate Education in Alabama with over 27 schools and 47 instructors, sorry you thought "very popular" sounded prideful

[rebeldude]

Gamecock Fan, My story is very similar to yours. I came from a large suit and tie Church and Now I am a member of a small, come as you are Church that also has a traditional and contemporary worship service that is combined. We begin with the traditional service with about 4-5 songs and then the band plays about that many. WE have a very diverse age group in our congregation and they love the format. Not only do the adults like the come as you are the youth love it. It is very relaxed and we are like one big family. The only thing I would like to see change is the number of people. There will never be enough.

[OmahaBound]

very popular was my humble way of not saying that I'm the largest provider of Real Estate Education in Alabama with over 27 schools and 47 instructors, sorry you thought "very popular" sounded prideful

see, the sticking out of the tongue means that i'm just messing with you. congrats on your success though.

[sportsgirl]

Hi guys, I thought you might be interested to hear from a woman why I think men are not so geeked up about going to church these days.

1. I think men believe Jesus and Christian men in general are "weak" or "soft." I don't believe this at all. In fact, Jesus is a man who fasted in the desert for 40 days and nights, threw moneychangers out of the temple, took a severe beating then carried a very heavy cross to his own death. This is clearly one strong man, a real Man's man. Unfortunately, this is just not the common image of Christ, and I think men tend to think of people like Pat Robertson when they think of male Christians, and who wants to be like Pat Robertson? So, I guess essentially, the view of Christ is skewed and there's not enough strong male Christian ambassadors.

2. I can't imagine how God calls to a man, but I have to guess that the calling is a strong one. I believe God requires much of all his children, men and women, but there's something very scary and daunting about what he requires of men, which is essentially leadership with integrity. Who can step boldly up to that calling? Of course, your typical man is misled into believing he must complete this task of his own accord and doesn't have the revelation that this task becomes cake when something as powerful as the Holy Spirit begins to direct you.

3. This is the simple one, and many guys have already spoken about this. What do women do when they all get together for a girls' night? We go somewhere and TALK. What do guys do? They go somewhere where they can DO something... watch sports, play sports, yada yada. I think it must sound like torture to a lot of men to think of going somewhere in uncomfortable clothes, where you will sit and listen/talk about a Christ who they believe is just a big softie. Guys like to DO.

[Noah.Dreams]

http://www.northpoint.org/sermons

If you're really interested in starting a grass roots movement for church growth, I would suggest that you visit Northpoint Community Church in Alpharetta, Georgia. This church is almost 10 years old. In the summer of 2006, they will have started their 5th church. The Alpharetta church averages about 12,000 attenders every Sunday and provides a delayed broadcast to the other locations.

Last summer, the pastor, Andy Stanley, challenged the congregation to make an extra donation to a new church that was opening about 4 miles away. Andy said, "A friend of mine is opening a new church just north of town next week and I'd like to surprise with a donation from our church. Now I know most of you show up with checks already made out, so what I'd like to do is take all of cash that we collect today and surprise my friend with a donation to his church."

Next Sunday, Andy told us, "My friend was stunned when I gave him your donation of $86,000. You are the most generous people in the world". And what's truly remarkable is Andy very rarely ever talks about raising money.

[TigerHeel]

Most of the older pastors in churches today lack any kind of sence of humour, IMHO. I was raised in a hell fire and brimstone church, and thats the kind of church I attend. Our current pastor is a couple of years younger than me, and has a tremendous sence of humour. There is nothing wrong with walking into a service, and hearing the sound of people laughing, or seeing them smile. I've seen way too many long faces come out of churches with older pastors and congregations.

I think church should be a time of reverence. At the same time, we should also be happy to be having fellowship with like-minded Christian folks, and humour is a big part of that.

Sorry for the long-winded post. I'm a newbie, and a bit over-enthusiastic, perhaps. :biggrin:

[GamecockinIL]

First of all, let me say thank you to all of you who have contributed to this thread so far. There are 13 different posters on this thread and I appreciate your thoughts. :thumbs:

BUT......

What I'm looking for in this thread is input from you people who DON'T GO TO CHURCH! I will not allow anyone on this thread to begin a criticism of of those of you who are not actively involved in a church. :chair: I honestly want to know why most guys (and probably most of you) don't like to go to church.

So far there have been some thought-provoking posts from people. But we've also seen posts from regular church-goers. I'm glad they go, but I want to know why those of you who don't go, choose other activities instead. :confused:

PLEASE....PLEASE...PLEASE take a few moments and help me out with this. If you don't attend church, I want to hear from you.

Let me say thanks in advance. If we don't get much going on this thread, I'll let it die by the end of the week. So this is my last plea for help. :new_puppy

[SeattleGamecocks]

As someone raised in church who doesn't attend as an adult, I could rant about why but I'll try to summarize in a respectful way. Basically I find that heathens live a life more modelled after Christ's than christians do.

[blues_cap]

gamecock, i grew up in church but i havent been to church in about 2 years. my reasons hold no water, but the post i made about having a weekday service still holds true.

i know it isnt much help, but my personal testimony, if you will.

[geechee]

First of all, let me say thank you to all of you who have contributed to this thread so far. There are 13 different posters on this thread and I appreciate your thoughts. :thumbs:

BUT......

What I'm looking for in this thread is input from you people who DON'T GO TO CHURCH! I will not allow anyone on this thread to begin a criticism of of those of you who are not actively involved in a church. :chair: I honestly want to know why most guys (and probably most of you) don't like to go to church.

So far there have been some thought-provoking posts from people. But we've also seen posts from regular church-goers. I'm glad they go, but I want to know why those of you who don't go, choose other activities instead. :confused:

PLEASE....PLEASE...PLEASE take a few moments and help me out with this. If you don't attend church, I want to hear from you.

Let me say thanks in advance. If we don't get much going on this thread, I'll let it die by the end of the week. So this is my last plea for help. :new_puppy

This is the first and last time I will comment on religion in a sports blog but you seemed to really want know even though we both know you will hate me after this.

I see wealthy greedy men who ripoff people all week long but then go to church on Sunday.

I see people who spend their whole week hating or mocking people who are different from them but then go to church every single Sunday.

I see people who root for stupid wars like they are sporting events and then go to church on Sunday.

I see kids going hungry every single day in the richest nation that has ever existed yet people give tons of money every single Sunday so the preacher can have a shiny new car.

I see every single hate group in America with some form of cross on their flags and I have never seen a single church goer challenge this.

I see Pat Robertson on TV and he is the number one reason why people should not go church and listen to some madman preach to them about how they should repent.

I see preachers who spend all their waking hours in politics instead of helping people who really need help.

Anyone who believes in wisdom, justice, and moderation is a good person and not going to church will not change this person's outlook on life.

I could go on and on if you want but, I'm sure you get my point and hate me enough by now.

[uscrules]

I think maybe you have overlooked one big statistic that has to figure in to why more women are in church than men. Divorce! Men and Women marry, they have kids. Maybe they weren't that religious, but they fell an obligation to expose their kids to God.In most (not all) cases when men and women divorce the children stay with their Mom. Mom has then the duty of taking the children to church. Dad is not around maybe he plays golf, goes to football games, I don't know. A lot of men go to church with their wives.

[GatorNation]

1. Why do men hate going to church? What are the obstacles, hurdles, problems, objections that many of you (or any other guys you know) have when it comes to attending church (or even giving church a try)?
I have no idea.

I go to church every Sunday....and sometimes Wednesdays for Bible study, too.

[azamugg]

First of all, let me say thank you to all of you who have contributed to this thread so far. There are 13 different posters on this thread and I appreciate your thoughts. :thumbs:

BUT......

What I'm looking for in this thread is input from you people who DON'T GO TO CHURCH! I will not allow anyone on this thread to begin a criticism of of those of you who are not actively involved in a church. :chair: I honestly want to know why most guys (and probably most of you) don't like to go to church.

So far there have been some thought-provoking posts from people. But we've also seen posts from regular church-goers. I'm glad they go, but I want to know why those of you who don't go, choose other activities instead. :confused:

PLEASE....PLEASE...PLEASE take a few moments and help me out with this. If you don't attend church, I want to hear from you.

Let me say thanks in advance. If we don't get much going on this thread, I'll let it die by the end of the week. So this is my last plea for help. :new_puppy

I do not go to church and since I was 24 have decided I'm an agnostic.....

I will tell you that I love to listen to Joel Osteen and frankly love discussing the dynamics of religion/belief in a positive way but all the "christians" in my life say they are uncomfortable talking about religion or that its stupid or boring to talk about which I feel all is terribly ironic. Joel Osteen has been put down by other factions within his own denomination and others saying he doesnt quote scripture enough and that his message is more "theraputic" than religious. His message is how to be the person God wants you to be which involves the dynamics of yourself and your relationship so I think he's right on.

[RW13]

I think Christianity (as well as islam) treats the universe as too simplistic, too easy to understand. I think there is so much we do not understand and haven't begun to even explore, this "don't be bad or else be punished" doesn't work for me, I have questions, and then more questions, and then more questions, and the worse part is that I don't know if my mouth is articulate enough to ask them, I mean, I know I lay awake at night and ponder stuff about the universe in my head, but I don't know how to ask about it? Does anyone kinda know what I'm saying or am I just rambling on like a crack addict?

[GamecockinIL]

This is the first and last time I will comment on religion in a sports blog but you seemed to really want know even though we both know you will hate me after this.......

Geechee
No hate here man. I appreciate your honesty. What saddens me is that people like yourself have clearly never sensed that people on my side of the debate want to honestly hear you out. That's a sad commentary on the state of Christianity as it is perceived by others. And we all know the old saying that perception is reality.

You have some good points, and it helps me to hear people like you and others express them honestly.

Thanks!

[GatorNation]

What saddens me is that people like yourself have clearly never sensed that people on my side of the debate want to honestly hear you out. That's a sad commentary on the state of Christianity as it is perceived by others....
Part of the problem there is that probably 10% of those people who call themselves Christians actually are Christians. As a result, "non-believers" evaluate the "religion" based upon the actions of people making false claims about their own "religious affiliation."

[hehehmule]

Tough question to answer because part of the questions and part of the answers will be in contradiction to themselves. I don't like doing this. I don't like throwing my stumbling blocks at the feet of others. I would prefer only the original poster read it, as I believe the intent to be genuine, but I suppose the length will take care of the problem of anyone else taking the time to read it.

The Sermon
It's been my experience this is a lecture. A presentation of information, that many times, is already familiar to the audience. Scripture is available to everyone so the only thing a minister can do is add interpretation (I'll come back to this) Imagine a classroom where the only thing discussed is the Civil War. You can discuss many aspects of it. You can even go into the events as they impact us today. But at some point, some students want to hear about something else. Bad example, I know but close as I can get.

Then you have the issue of the ministers interpretation. Many might ask where does it come from? They have the same Bible. Can the minister understand it better for some reason? Is it about education, or is it about faith? Does a PhD close the distance between man and God? I have no doubt the answer would be no. So what now is the purpose of the service. Fellowship, free exchange of ideas? Not so much. We're back to the sermon. Why is that? What purpose is it serving? Is it to educate? If so, there are much better ways to do it. Is it to motivate? Christ motivated with actions as well as words.

When you look at the Bible, and you see the ministries of Christ and the apostles, what did they do? Did they find a group and settle with them? Why would you? Why would you stay to spread the word to those who have accepted the message? They can do it themselves now. If someone has accepted Christ, are they not just as saved as a minister who spent 4 years in study? Cannot God grant them the grace and spirit to share their witness because they lack the proper accredidation? Space prevents me from continuing. I hope this helps. Feel free to email if you'd like to discuss further.

[Noah.Dreams]

I think Christianity (as well as islam) treats the universe as too simplistic, too easy to understand. I think there is so much we do not understand and haven't begun to even explore, this "don't be bad or else be punished" doesn't work for me, I have questions, and then more questions, and then more questions, and the worse part is that I don't know if my mouth is articulate enough to ask them, I mean, I know I lay awake at night and ponder stuff about the universe in my head, but I don't know how to ask about it? Does anyone kinda know what I'm saying or am I just rambling on like a crack addict?I couldn't agree with you more. We, Christians, are too afraid of offending the church to ask the obvious questions out loud. Is our God so small that we are libel to stumble on a truth that he can't explain? I doubt it, however, that may cast a shadow on some universally accepted interpretion that we build our faith on instead of the truth. All too often, Christians that give voice to obvious contradictions in the scripture are quickly labeled as heretics.

[GatorNation]

I couldn't agree with you more. We, Christians, are too afraid of offending the church to ask the obvious questions out loud. Is our God so small that we are libel to stumble on a truth that he can't explain? I doubt it, however, that may cast a shadow on some universally accepted interpretion that we build our faith on instead of the truth. All too often, Christians that give voice to obvious contradictions in the scripture are quickly labeled as heretics.
Well, people either believe that the Bible is the divinely-inspired Word of God, or they don't. You can't believe in the Bible as God's Word and still question its contents. If "His ways" are really so much higher than "our ways," do you really expect to be able to understand everything that comprises our universe?

[Noah.Dreams]

Well, people either believe that the Bible is the divinely-inspired Word of God, or they don't. You can't believe in the Bible as God's Word and still question its contents. If "His ways" are really so much higher than "our ways," do you really expect to be able to understand everything that comprises our universe?While scripture is definitely divinely inspired, however, man's interpretation seems to fall short of heaven. To complicate matters worst, Christians lose even more credibility in the eyes of men when we twist an analogy to suit our own needs or demand that every verse of scripture must be interpreted literally. Then Christian men appear like hippocrites because we're too insecure to admit that we don't have all the answers and there's not a safe place to debate those issues without another faithiful follower questioning your faith.

For instance, Isaiah 38:8 ends with this sentence... "So the sun returned ten degrees on the dial by which it had gone down". The church interpreted this to mean that the earth was the center of the universe and all planets and stars revolve around it. This is where the term sunrise and sunset originates. That's an innocent mistake to make given the literal interpretation, until Copernius theorizes that the sun is the center of this galaxy and the church labels him a heretic and everyone that agrees with him dies by the church's hand. A few years later a very godly man invents a telescope, so the church confiscated all of Gallieo's work and imprisoned him.

For 500 years, the church seemed to always find a way to let religion, as defined by man, stand in the way of a relationship defined by God. Is it just me or doesn't it seem a little more than ironic that the church denied that all of creation revolves around the SON?

[cocky4ever]

I think Christianity (as well as islam) treats the universe as too simplistic, too easy to understand. I think there is so much we do not understand and haven't begun to even explore, this "don't be bad or else be punished" doesn't work for me, I have questions, and then more questions, and then more questions, and the worse part is that I don't know if my mouth is articulate enough to ask them, I mean, I know I lay awake at night and ponder stuff about the universe in my head, but I don't know how to ask about it? Does anyone kinda know what I'm saying or am I just rambling on like a crack addict?
You're not just rambling on. I know exactly what you're saying. Im basically a smorgasboard of beliefs and when someone asks me what my faith is I dont really have an accurate way to answer them. I basically say that Im a Unitarian Universalist in that I respect all beliefs. Then again I also belive that in the human body we can never begin to comprehend the system that God has in place. I also believe that there is a chance that there is no God. In that way you could say Im Agnostic. As far as religions I probably got most of my beliefs from Buddhism and Wiccan/Druidism. It goes on and on as I have gotten a lot of beliefs from other belief systems. I guess you can see why its much easier to describe myself as a UU and not try to explain the complexity of my beliefs unless someone asks me.

With that being said I dont know what advice to offer to make more men attend church. I wouldnt attend a church unless it was a UU church, and thats just because I probably wouldnt have to worry about someone telling me what to believe. I think that everyone has a different personality so everyone needs to have a different path to walk. I find it much more effective to make religions fit to own beliefs instead of making myself fit into a certain religion.

[jbuzbee]

Some people take religion to an extreme and because they are so emotional about it they tend to polarize people. I prefer to keep my religious beliefs to myself (and think others should do the same) because of its personal nature....oh, and you ain't gonna change anybody's mind.

But back to the original question, "why do men hate church"....well, uncomfortable chairs.

[Volnooga]

Well, here goes my whole spiel on the matter. For years especiall in my early 20s it seemed that every thing I thought of as fun, well the Chiurch was against it. And rightfully so, now that I've made it out on the otherside. Drinking.. nope... Drugs... nope... sex... nope....smokin...nope... What Can I do? THis is what happens to a lot in our 20s. And now in my 30s, after 10 years out of the church, even thought my opinions changed a bit, Drinkin... hurts too much.... Drugs..... not around my kids and not if it's gonna hurt tomorrow,.... sex... only with my wife.... Smoking... ok, well, I still smoke ;), my habit of sleeping late on Sunday was hard to give up.. But having two kids and knowing that it is my duty as a husband and father to be the religious leader of my household, I finally did it.

So here are some suggestions.

Make it feel less like a job or duty to be in church.

Offer Parents programs for their children at times when the parent won't be at Church, such as Friday nights. A Parents night out if you will.

Social for Singles. Make your church a good place to go and meet a good man or woman on the weekend as opposed to a bar.

Preach with the realization and undersatanding that everyone in your congregation is a sinner. Let them know that since the birth and death of Christ, Our God is a God of LOVE, not wrath. That while he does not like the sin in their life, he des understnad and love them just the same.

Use the Tithes and Offerings wisely. Do not use them to build a huge and beautiful church (If it grows to that size some day). I see more vanity in Church that way than in most other places. Use the money to do works in the community, and if your Church does start to out grow it's building, make sure that you out reach by breaking off parts of your congrigations to start new churches, as opposed to building the 5 million dollar "house of God".

Remember that Church should be more about fellowship and a place of learning than preaching. Does that make sence.

And last but not least remember John 3:16 as that is the only rule for getting into heavon. "That whosoever believes in him". there are no other conditions for attaining a trip to heavon. No "and isn't gay", or "and doesn't drink", or "and gives 15% of pay", Just whosoever believes in him, that's it, no other conditions apply. Love all members of society from the best to the worst, as that's what Jesus would do. Teach as he would, never condemning, always loveing. The Church should not judge, just as it's members should not judge. A Church teaches, and helps, no more.

Whew... I had more to say than I thought I did.

[azamugg]

I don't know about anyone else but Volnooga's last post and Noah.Dreams last few posts were fantastic.........thanks guys!!

[Noah.Dreams]

I don't know about anyone else but Volnooga's last post and Noah.Dreams last few posts were fantastic.........thanks guys!!
I appreciate your comments, azamugg.

[nooneLT]

i think it's been touched on, but to me it seems like the hypocrites are what makes Christians look bad. there's a joke i've heard some about when do baptists not recognize each other? when they're in line at the liquor store. there are way too many people who claim to be Christians but do not live God's way.

another thing i can think of...denominations. baptists, methodists, presbyterians, church of God, church of Christ, lutheran, episcapalian (sp) and many other denominations exist for Christianity. each denomination interacts mostly within their denomination, so you get a lot of seperate groups, when in fact we should all be united. one of the things that irk me is when someone asks me what religion i am. i say i'm a Christian, but they're not satisfied with that answer. i may go to a baptist church, but i don't consider myself baptist.

btw, since you're in Illinois, one thing you and your congregation could do this summer is cornerstone. it's a little pricey, but i think it's worth it.

[BamaMatt]

Hypocrisy is one of the major reasons I stopped going to church (raised Church of Christ FYI), and surely helped on the path to eventually considering myself agnostic.

Seeing the same people every single week getting up to ask for forgiveness... seeing the people that did whatever they wanted during the week to only show up and expect a free pass to Heaven for their one day a week half-paying attention visit. Seeing the church take up collections every single week only to see them spend the money on expanding the parking lot to get more people into the church to gather more collections instead of spending that money to help people....etc.

[GamecockinIL]

.....btw, since you're in Illinois, one thing you and your congregation could do this summer is cornerstone. it's a little pricey, but i think it's worth it.

Gotcha covered on that one! Last year, we CANCELLED our service during Cornerstone because we had so many of our people down there volunteering to work. I'm the pastor (aka, Head Coach), and I was down there too. It was great. We had the overwhelming majority of our leadership down there working.

That is a REALLY interesting environment. :whistle: Kind of one of those things that you have to see to believe. If you ever plan to attend, let me know. We'll probably have a large contingent there volunteering again this year.

[nooneLT]

Gotcha covered on that one! Last year, we CANCELLED our service during Cornerstone because we had so many of our people down there volunteering to work. I'm the pastor (aka, Head Coach), and I was down there too. It was great. We had the overwhelming majority of our leadership down there working.

That is a REALLY interesting environment. :whistle: Kind of one of those things that you have to see to believe. If you ever plan to attend, let me know. We'll probably have a large contingent there volunteering again this year.

a bunch of my friends are definetly going and they want me to come. the thing is, the week after cornerstone i'm going on a mission trip.