its crap like this

[jneesy]

that gives us loving christians a bad name :mad:

Kansas church group to protest at Marine's funeral
From all accounts, 19-year-old Lance Cpl. Adam Kaiser lived a quiet life before he was killed serving with the Marines in Iraq.

His funeral service, however, may not be that quiet.

A church group that protests funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq with signs that read "God Hates America" and "Thank God for Dead Soldiers" plans to be there.

Shirley Phelps-Roper, the attorney for Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., said a group from the church intends to protest at both Kaiser's funeral and the funeral of Byron resident Lance Cpl. Andrew Patten, 19, who was also killed in Thursday's blast in Fallujah. The group has already protested about a dozen funerals in Illinois.

Fred Phelps, Westboro's pastor, said soldiers' deaths are God's way of punishing America for its "acceptance of homosexuality.
"

Wade Kaiser, Adam's father, said he heard of the group about two weeks ago, and after his son's death, was told to prepare for their presence by the Marines.

Wade said he thinks it is sad that the group wants to do this, but he supports their right to do it.

"But I think it will show a lot of people what these people are all about," Wade said. "I think it should be an embarrassment to them and it does nothing to help their cause."

Naperville Police Sgt. Joel Truemper said the department is aware of the possibility that the Westboro group may protest at Kaiser's funeral. He said Naperville police already planned to have a presence at the service, just as they have for the other funerals of Naperville soldiers recently killed in combat.

At past funeral services, police have worked with funeral homes and churches to protect mourners' privacy by asking unwanted parties to leave the property.

Illinois Lt. Gov. Pat Quinn is proposing a new law that would prohibit protests within 300 feet of any military funeral.

"To have these vile signs and epithets hurled at any family and any funeral is wrong," Quinn told the Chicago Sun-Times. "We should respect the right of any family to grieve and bury their dead with reverence."

Phelps said such a law would be unconstitutional, but Quinn said the U.S. Supreme Court has allowed the type of restrictions he is proposing.
— Tim Waldorf

12/06/05


i would need mucho forgiveness if i ever encountered this bunch of morons

[cocky4ever]

If anyone ever showed at a funeral of one of my loved ones holding a sign that thanked God for their death I would cause another death that they may not be so thankful for:mad:

[OmahaBound]

the world never ceases to amaze me with the number of nutjobs in the population.

[RW13]

There are other things that give Christians a bad name as well...., this is just horrible though....

[rebeldude]

Before you beat Christians up over this, let me say this: These people are not Christians.Christians are followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not teach cruelty.

[RW13]

that's for sure, and to my knowledge jesus wasn't politically aligned, that's something 2005 america needs to remember as well....

[GeauxTo]

Before you beat Christians up over this, let me say this: These people are not Christians.Christians are followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not teach cruelty.

You are so right!

[rebeldude]

You are so right!

I'm Glad you agree, I figure I'll get blasted before it's over with, ya know that judgement thang :D

[jneesy]

i agree these morons are not christians. the point i was making is they claim to be and for alot of people who think that christains really act like this, well, it just gives them more ammo

[rebeldude]

i agree these morons are not christians. the point i was making is they claim to be and for alot of people who think that christains really act like this, well, it just gives them more ammo

You are right(proclaimed Christians), but just remember the Bible warns us of them. I don't worry too much about non-christian ammo, whats it gonna do? blow me up. Ha :) :)

[SeattleGamecocks]

Fred Phelps, Westboro's pastor, said soldiers' deaths are God's way of punishing America for its "acceptance of homosexuality.
Wow. these guys obviously don't represent a significant subset of christians in America. I'm usually one of the first to be critical of christians for a plethora of reasons but this leaves me a little dumbfounded, but 2 questions immediately come to mind:
1- what acceptance of homosexuality?
2- do none of these people have family in the service? Sheesh.

[CockyTatGuy]

You are right(proclaimed Christians), but just remember the Bible warns us of them. I don't worry too much about non-christian ammo, whats it gonna do? blow me up. Ha :) :)

The Bible also says that we should rejoice when we face persecution in Matthew 15.

[volimhtown]

I think that this is HORRIBLE!! I have the utmost respect, admiration, and appreciation for these young men and the sacrifice they paid for our flawed country. That their deaths are going to be advantageous for the people in which they died protecting is simply sickening.

All of that said, I LOVE the irony in this story and posts! Self proclaimed Christians calling other self proclaimed Christians "non-christians" is hilarious!!
The moral of the lesson, class, is that in the end, hate breeds hate and racism breeds racism. This is the slippery slope that we continue to slip down as a society. You can package it however you want, you can hide your hatred behind whatever ancient book or writings you want, it's still simply HATE and MISUNDERSTANDING. We definitely aren't the first country in the world who is slowly but surely combining our laws with the religious beliefs of the majority, but I find it awefully ironic that the countries who have done the same are the same countries who we are consistently battling with and who we consistently profess the importance of "Freedom" to. I guess we should temper future criticisms with the saying "Do as I say, not as I do"!! I LOVE IT!!

[cocky4ever]

A christian is someone who worships Jesus. Just because they dont represent the majority of the religion doesnt mean they arent christians. Suicide bombers dont represent the majority of muslims and have even outraged people of their own religion, but they are still muslims.

Another thing- Im admittedly not the most educated when it comes to the Bible but I know a good bit about it. Doesnt it say in the Bible that God has promised to not punish people on Earth anymore? It may have been after the flood. There was a rainbow and it was a sign of his promise to not punish people on Earth until the Armageddon. That may not be exactly what it said but I think that we the jist of it. Is that correct?

[CockyTatGuy]

The rainbow was the promise not to flood the Earth again, the next time the Earth is going to be destroyed by fire.

[fernandomike]

I think that this is HORRIBLE!! I have the utmost respect, admiration, and appreciation for these young men and the sacrifice they paid for our flawed country. That their deaths are going to be advantageous for the people in which they died protecting is simply sickening.

All of that said, I LOVE the irony in this story and posts! Self proclaimed Christians calling other self proclaimed Christians "non-christians" is hilarious!!
The moral of the lesson, class, is that in the end, hate breeds hate and racism breeds racism. This is the slippery slope that we continue to slip down as a society. You can package it however you want, you can hide your hatred behind whatever ancient book or writings you want, it's still simply HATE and MISUNDERSTANDING. We definitely aren't the first country in the world who is slowly but surely combining our laws with the religious beliefs of the majority, but I find it awefully ironic that the countries who have done the same are the same countries who we are consistently battling with and who we consistently profess the importance of "Freedom" to. I guess we should temper future criticisms with the saying "Do as I say, not as I do"!! I LOVE IT!!

America is not flawed. Don't you know anything??? For even insinuating that we are starting to resemble our enemies, you should be whisked away and tossed in some hidden, US-controlled prison in Russia where you will spend your remaining days enduring untold tortures and begging for scraps. :rolleyes:

[sportsgirl]

Ah-hem.... allow me to clear my throat...America is not flawed? Are you crazy? Where in the heck are you living because we'd all sure love to be there. We are certainly blessed and built on a foundation of strong morals, but somewhere along the way we have gotten totally lost as a country. It seems that anymore the U.S. is constantly being busted for doing the very things we criticize and attack other countries for doing. I'm not saying I'd like to do any hard time in a US controlled prison in Russia, I'd probably get tortured... but, I think you get the point!

Sportsgirl

[rebeldude]

I think that this is HORRIBLE!! I have the utmost respect, admiration, and appreciation for these young men and the sacrifice they paid for our flawed country. That their deaths are going to be advantageous for the people in which they died protecting is simply sickening.

All of that said, I LOVE the irony in this story and posts! Self proclaimed Christians calling other self proclaimed Christians "non-christians" is hilarious!!
The moral of the lesson, class, is that in the end, hate breeds hate and racism breeds racism. This is the slippery slope that we continue to slip down as a society. You can package it however you want, you can hide your hatred behind whatever ancient book or writings you want, it's still simply HATE and MISUNDERSTANDING. We definitely aren't the first country in the world who is slowly but surely combining our laws with the religious beliefs of the majority, but I find it awefully ironic that the countries who have done the same are the same countries who we are consistently battling with and who we consistently profess the importance of "Freedom" to. I guess we should temper future criticisms with the saying "Do as I say, not as I do"!! I LOVE IT!!

Q. You know what is funnier than a self proclaimed Christian calling others non-christians?

A. A person with enough arrogance to conclude another persons spititual life with zero evidence. In other words, Thy know not what thy talk about. Now that is funny!!! BWah hahahahahahaha :D :D :D :D :D :D

[rabidcock]

Ah-hem.... allow me to clear my throat...America is not flawed? Are you crazy? Where in the heck are you living because we'd all sure love to be there. We are certainly blessed and built on a foundation of strong morals, but somewhere along the way we have gotten totally lost as a country. It seems that anymore the U.S. is constantly being busted for doing the very things we criticize and attack other countries for doing. I'm not saying I'd like to do any hard time in a US controlled prison in Russia, I'd probably get tortured... but, I think you get the point!

Sportsgirl

You obviously are not well-acquainted with fernando. His tongue was so far up his cheek, he was darn near choking. ;)

Leave it to ME to stand up for this country. We are the modern-day Romans, and it is our job to take charge of the world for its own protection. Where the Romans eventually failed, we shall not. Within a period of fifty-five years, a new world order will come about. This may be known as The United States of Earth!

These people in other countries: they don't know what is going on; they exist in a vast sea of ignorance and semi-barbarism. Only Americans still possess the fortitude to right this world----it is our DESTINY! Even the Europeans have become too enervated to lead this cause but themselves are threatened to be overcome by this wave of terrorism and dissaray.

As for these traitorous protestors, they should be quietly "disposed of", but since we live in a democracy, they should be offered the option of sterilization, so that they can not bring like offspring into the world.

I could elaborate, but this is for another time and another thread. Peace be with you, brothers.

[Oh yes, and heil!]

[uscrebel]

I alway love these discussions and as I prepare on this Sunday Morning to go to church, I am blown away by how quickly we call for an end to our civil liberties when our freedoms force us to have to deal with opposing opinions. The fact is that these ideas are so flagrantly from left field that only the most bizarre will be affected by them.

Is it horrid that they would show up at a funeral? Absolutely. Would I be enraged if they showed up with those signs at my son's funeral? Certainly. Would I assault, raise hell, or attempt to kick the living crap out of them. Probably so. Do I want to live in a society where somebody else decides what I can and cannot say. Never.

The difference between America and the theocracies and dictatorships of the rest of the world is that we let the insane and bizarre have the same freedom of expression as everyone else.

A little sidenote. In England at the end of the 19th Century, insane asylums were packe with women who marched as suffragettes. Their cause was considered to be an obvious perversion of the moral order and they were declared insane and committed to asylums. There is a great story of 28 women being arrested in front of 10 Downing Street and carried directly to Bedlam. They needed no trial, because they were not criminals...they were insane. During the period from 1870 to 1900, over 3000 women were hospitalized for asking for the right to vote.

[rabidcock]

I am truly sobered by this most excellent commentary, Reb. My hat is off to you. :cool:

[fernandomike]

You obviously are not well-acquainted with fernando. His tongue was so far up his cheek, he was darn near choking. ;)


RabbitCock, sometimes I feel like you're the only one who has ever truly understood me. :)

[RW13]

I alway love these discussions and as I prepare on this Sunday Morning to go to church, I am blown away by how quickly we call for an end to our civil liberties when our freedoms force us to have to deal with opposing opinions. The fact is that these ideas are so flagrantly from left field that only the most bizarre will be affected by them.

Is it horrid that they would show up at a funeral? Absolutely. Would I be enraged if they showed up with those signs at my son's funeral? Certainly. Would I assault, raise hell, or attempt to kick the living crap out of them. Probably so. Do I want to live in a society where somebody else decides what I can and cannot say. Never.

The difference between America and the theocracies and dictatorships of the rest of the world is that we let the insane and bizarre have the same freedom of expression as everyone else.

A little sidenote. In England at the end of the 19th Century, insane asylums were packe with women who marched as suffragettes. Their cause was considered to be an obvious perversion of the moral order and they were declared insane and committed to asylums. There is a great story of 28 women being arrested in front of 10 Downing Street and carried directly to Bedlam. They needed no trial, because they were not criminals...they were insane. During the period from 1870 to 1900, over 3000 women were hospitalized for asking for the right to vote.

Those women were enemy combatants......

[SeattleGamecocks]

What kind of cruel chauvanist would allow women to suffrage like that? jk nice post uscreb. rw13 you crack me up man.

[usafbamafan]

I'm not touching this thread with Fernando's stick and USCReb pushing!!! :eek:

[GamecocksRule]

The people at the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kansas are not people..they are alien beings who are here to take over the WORLD. :rolleyes: I mean...read some of their statements..unbelievable:

Too crazy to post the actual web link name (http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html)

[sportsgirl]

Here, here! Good Sunday morning to us all as we go to our separate places to freely worship :-)

Sportsgirl

[RW13]

Holy Crap, that is insane, the website.......are these people being serious? I love the name, I was rolling in laughter....

[cocky4ever]

Holy Crap, that is insane, the website.......are these people being serious? I love the name, I was rolling in laughter....
Unfortunately, Im sure they are. I think we need to start a site called Godhatesintolerantidiots.com. We could even raise money by selling "My God can beat up your God" bumper stickers :rolleyes:

[BAMAMARINE]

I alway love these discussions and as I prepare on this Sunday Morning to go to church, I am blown away by how quickly we call for an end to our civil liberties when our freedoms force us to have to deal with opposing opinions. The fact is that these ideas are so flagrantly from left field that only the most bizarre will be affected by them.

Is it horrid that they would show up at a funeral? Absolutely. Would I be enraged if they showed up with those signs at my son's funeral? Certainly. Would I assault, raise hell, or attempt to kick the living crap out of them. Probably so. Do I want to live in a society where somebody else decides what I can and cannot say. Never.

The difference between America and the theocracies and dictatorships of the rest of the world is that we let the insane and bizarre have the same freedom of expression as everyone else.

A little sidenote. In England at the end of the 19th Century, insane asylums were packe with women who marched as suffragettes. Their cause was considered to be an obvious perversion of the moral order and they were declared insane and committed to asylums. There is a great story of 28 women being arrested in front of 10 Downing Street and carried directly to Bedlam. They needed no trial, because they were not criminals...they were insane. During the period from 1870 to 1900, over 3000 women were hospitalized for asking for the right to vote.

This is an excellent post, yes for one reason or another this country will differ its opinion on not just some subjects, but all. I agree I too would be very pissed if God forbid something were to happen to my brother by blood while in Iraq and have people protest at his funeral, I would probably beat a tremedous amount of ass that day, nevertheless it doesnt have to just be my brother by blood all of those young men and women over there are my brothers and sisters. Yes it angers me beyond words that these AMERICANS with no heart could protest a funeral and claim it was Gods will that the person died to teach us all a lesson. Yes I said it as much as we might not like to admit they are Americans and have rights to. Rights that our fathers and grandfathers and grandfathers grandfathers fought for. Do I think there should be a law against protesting, hell no. I do think people should have enough heart, for lack of a better word, to not protest another human beings funeral, let a lone a serviceman who has died with the ideas that we do it for the American people.

[uscrebel]

This is an excellent post, yes for one reason or another this country will differ its opinion on not just some subjects, but all. I agree I too would be very pissed if God forbid something were to happen to my brother by blood while in Iraq and have people protest at his funeral, I would probably beat a tremedous amount of ass that day, nevertheless it doesnt have to just be my brother by blood all of those young men and women over there are my brothers and sisters. Yes it angers me beyond words that these AMERICANS with no heart could protest a funeral and claim it was Gods will that the person died to teach us all a lesson. Yes I said it as much as we might not like to admit they are Americans and have rights to. Rights that our fathers and grandfathers and grandfathers grandfathers fought for. Do I think there should be a law against protesting, hell no. I do think people should have enough heart, for lack of a better word, to not protest another human beings funeral, let a lone a serviceman who has died with the ideas that we do it for the American people.

BamaMarine...

Thank you for you post.

I was not in the military, but my father was a Navy Captain and the first few years of my life were spent on or near North Charleston NB. Poppa stayed reserve for almost twenty years after his active service in WWII. When he died two years ago, the commandant of the of Coast Guard Station in Mobile was one of his former sailors. He arranged an honor guard with a 21-gun salute, taps, the whole works.

While I am opposed to the war in Iraq, I am not foolish enough to be opposed to the necessity for a standing military and the need to deploy it. There are, as they say, bad people in the world.

We were very proud of Poppa's thirty years of service to his country. He was called up from reserves twice that I recall. Once during the Cuban Missile Crisis and once during the Pueblo Incident.

Likewise, I trust that everyone on SECTALK is deeply appreciative of your time in the service. I hope we never make the mistake of confusing bad foreign policy with the heroic sacrifices made by our men and women in uniform. THANKS!!

PS....after growing up on or near Navy Bases, the family joke was that if St. Peter was in charge of the Pearly Gates, he must be a Marine.

[cocky4ever]

I will be the first one to tell you that I believe people should be able to speak there mind, however there should be laws against protesting at someone's funeral and holding signs thanking God for their death. There should at least be some kind of trespassing charge that can be brought against these people. I can speak my mind all day long, but not everywhere in the country. I cant come into your yard and start yelling that I hope your son gets killed. There should be some kind of law that allows the people who pay for the funeral to have property rights for the time allotted. They pay thousands of dollars and are spending that time to be grateful for the life of that person. We should all be entitled to that without some inconsiderate @$$holes messing it up.:mad:

[uscrebel]

I will be the first one to tell you that I believe people should be able to speak there mind, however there should be laws against protesting at someone's funeral and holding signs thanking God for their death. There should at least be some kind of trespassing charge that can be brought against these people. I can speak my mind all day long, but not everywhere in the country. I cant come into your yard and start yelling that I hope your son gets killed. There should be some kind of law that allows the people who pay for the funeral to have property rights for the time allotted. They pay thousands of dollars and are spending that time to be grateful for the life of that person. We should all be entitled to that without some inconsiderate @$$holes messing it up.:mad:

Cocky4,

The way I figure it is like this.

1. I want to have the right to protest...but I think basic intuitions about civility should prevail.

2. If someone is stupid enough to protest my son's funeral, I am probably stupid enough to kick his a$$.

3. If I went to trial for kicking the a$$ of some fool who was protesting at my son's funeral, I am sure the jury would let me off.

4. Even if I had to serve a few months for assault I am sure that I would be seen as hero by my cellmates and my community.

You know what Thomas Jefferson said, "Sometimes you just gotta kick a$$." Okay, maybe it wasn't Jefferson, but it is still true.

[HSVTider]

All I know is that stuff like this coupled with the "anti-Merry Christmas" thing and the ACLU have made me realize that I live in the only country on earth where the minority pushes around the majority.

I firmly believe that our country is at a crossroads. While the people that claim to be christian in this country total approximately 85% of the population, there might be actually 10% act like it and most of them are over the age of 55.

The prophecies of the end times (in the Bible) don't speak much of the western world. They speak of the land of Magog (Russia) and of a 200,000,000 man army rising from the East (has to be china..only country with the population to support such a feat).

If all of the prophecies in Revelation are true (and I believe they are), the United States of America (in my opinion) is not going to play a major role in the outcome.

I think this leaves us with one of two possibilities:

A) We continue on the hedenistic blasphemous path that we've walked down since the 1960s and just lump ourselves in with the new Roman Empire (the EU).

or

B) The 85% of us that claim to be christians can start acting like it and all be raptured before all the bad crap goes down, thus leaving only a skeleton of America behind to factor into it.

That choice, is up to us.

[cocky4ever]

Cocky4,

The way I figure it is like this.

1. I want to have the right to protest...but I think basic intuitions about civility should prevail.

2. If someone is stupid enough to protest my son's funeral, I am probably stupid enough to kick his a$$.

3. If I went to trial for kicking the a$$ of some fool who was protesting at my son's funeral, I am sure the jury would let me off.

4. Even if I had to serve a few months for assault I am sure that I would be seen as hero by my cellmates and my community.

You know what Thomas Jefferson said, "Sometimes you just gotta kick a$$." Okay, maybe it wasn't Jefferson, but it is still true.
Those are all good points and Im sure I would kick someones @$$ too if they did that at a funeral of one of my loved ones. However, that isnt gonna make it ok for the people to speak their minds. Its not the point that the person administering the @$$ whooping would probably get off, the point is that the disrespect and disruptiveness caused would ruin a moment that could never be gotten back. That is the thing that needs to be protected.

[Cianne]

They speak of the land of Magog (Russia) and of a 200,000,000 man army rising from the East (has to be china..only country with the population to support such a feat).

Au contraire, India has a 219,471,999 people between the ages of 18 and 49 that are fit for military service according to the CIA Factbook. China has 281,240,272.

[cocky4ever]

All I know is that stuff like this coupled with the "anti-Merry Christmas" thing and the ACLU have made me realize that I live in the only country on earth where the minority pushes around the majority.

When are people gonna get over the whole "people are taking the Christ out of Christmas" thing. In my whole lifetime Christmas has always been about capitalism for about 98% of the population. This year there are a lot of churches that arent even gonna be open because Christmas is on a Sun. and they think it will hurt their attendance. Plus there is no evidence that Christ was even born in Dec. In fact, the date of his birth is never mentioned in the Bible but there is evidence to suggest that he WASNT born in Dec. We hear in Luke 2:8 "Now there were in the same country shepards living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night." This practice was only common from April-Oct., and certainly wouldnt have taken place in Dec.

The date of his birth wasnt even mentioned until 366 A.D. I wonder why? Perhaps because that was a time when the church was trying to spread and get a large following. So why would they pick a time around the end of Dec.? Well, lets see...the Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice was very popular and the church knew people didnt like to give up their traditions. The Bible even warns against one Pagan tradition:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen....For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers, that it move not."

Oh well, Christianity stole another belief's holiday and now many are complaining about how the "heathens" are ruining a Christian holiday. What goes around comes around.

Theres some food for thought as you sit around your christmas tree and complain about how Christmas is being taken from you.

[SeattleGamecocks]

I LOVE the irony in this story and posts! Self proclaimed Christians calling other self proclaimed Christians "non-christians" is hilarious!!
Here's a great example from the website that GamecocksRule posted by these non-christian, I mean christian/non-christians:

"Most "Christians" today are Christians by name only, and should be ashamed of themselves. They are cowardly, lukewarm, and ashamed of Christ's Word. They have substituted their own pathetic ideas for God's clear commandments."

fwiw, I think "Jesus was way cool" :cool:

[Cianne]

Theres some food for thought as you sit around your christmas tree and complain about how Christmas is being taken from you.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me how an evergreen spruce or fir tree was residing in a stable where Christ was born. Until they can, I have no problem with it being called a Holiday Tree :p

[uscrebel]

Those are all good points and Im sure I would kick someones @$$ too if they did that at a funeral of one of my loved ones. However, that isnt gonna make it ok for the people to speak their minds. Its not the point that the person administering the @$$ whooping would probably get off, the point is that the disrespect and disruptiveness caused would ruin a moment that could never be gotten back. That is the thing that needs to be protected.

Cocky4....

I understand what you are saying, but I have never been much a fan of legislating civility. As liberal as I am, I abhor PC speech codes. Let me give you the best example that I can think of.

During the period from the late 17th Century to the early 20th Century, much of Slavic Europe (including Russia, the Urkaine, the Balkans, etc.) meandered in relative anarchy and turmoil. There was a bit of "ethnic violence," but generally speaking, groups had developed ways to live with one another. When the Revolution occurred in Russia, the great agglomeration of states began. The USSR as we knew it for most of the 20th Century held together a massive state by stipulating what was appropriate and inappropriate behavior...and ultimately what was appropriate belief.

After WWII, Yugoslavia, Czechoslavakia, Hungary, etc. were formed as minatures of the same process. For 50 years, there was was very little turmoil within these countries. Any manifestation of difference was obliterated...or so they thought.

As soon as the Soviet states fell, we found out that the legislated civility had simply driven old differences underground. Because two generations of children had grown to adulthood without the historical, informal rules for living together, the result was incredible bloodshed as Serb killed Croat and Chechin bombed Russian.

Freedom is a very odd animal. To choose freedom means to choose the uncertain and unimaginable. When we try to make everyone like ourselves we choose shackles and chains, not freedom.

I realize that many people on this board live in parts of the country where the dominant population and religions have European bases. Each morning I ride to work in a vanpool that includes the following:

1 - Non-practicing Jew
1 - Very active Episcopalian (That's me.)
1 - European-American male who is married to a Vietnamese Catholic woman
1 - Chinese woman who has only been the US for seven years, but has no apparent religioin
1 - Chinese-American Woman who is 3rd Generation and Buddhist
2 - Russian men from Moscow, both of whom attend the local Orthdox Church.
1 - Iranian-American male who fled Iran in 1972 and is a practicing Muslim

We get along, not because we are forced to, but because we respect each other. Saying "Happy Holiday" instead of "Merry Christmas" is a measure of that respect.

Unfortunately, when we repress expression...no matter how offensive...we create tremendous instabilities that fester below the surface.

So, if you wish to create laws that abridge the whacky "Christians" rights to be rude and offensive at funerals, go ahead. I just hope that everyone has the same definition of rude and offensive as you, because, quite frankly, I find "Cocks" to be a singularly offensive term and I do not think that I should have to face the obvious scatological double-entendre it carries with it. I say, "Ban the Cock!!"

[cocky4ever]

Cocky4....

I understand what you are saying, but I have never been much a fan of legislating civility. As liberal as I am, I abhor PC speech codes. Let me give you the best example that I can think of.

During the period from the late 17th Century to the early 20th Century, much of Slavic Europe (including Russia, the Urkaine, the Balkans, etc.) meandered in relative anarchy and turmoil. There was a bit of "ethnic violence," but generally speaking, groups had developed ways to live with one another. When the Revolution occurred in Russia, the great agglomeration of states began. The USSR as we knew it for most of the 20th Century held together a massive state by stipulating what was appropriate and inappropriate behavior...and ultimately what was appropriate belief.

After WWII, Yugoslavia, Czechoslavakia, Hungary, etc. were formed as minatures of the same process. For 50 years, there was was very little turmoil within these countries. Any manifestation of difference was obliterated...or so they thought.

As soon as the Soviet states fell, we found out that the legislated civility had simply driven old differences underground. Because two generations of children had grown to adulthood without the historical, informal rules for living together, the result was incredible bloodshed as Serb killed Croat and Chechin bombed Russian.

Freedom is a very odd animal. To choose freedom means to choose the uncertain and unimaginable. When we try to make everyone like ourselves we choose shackles and chains, not freedom.

I realize that many people on this board live in parts of the country where the dominant population and religions have European bases. Each morning I ride to work in a vanpool that includes the following:

1 - Non-practicing Jew
1 - Very active Episcopalian (That's me.)
1 - European-American male who is married to a Vietnamese Catholic woman
1 - Chinese woman who has only been the US for seven years, but has no apparent religioin
1 - Chinese-American Woman who is 3rd Generation and Buddhist
2 - Russian men from Moscow, both of whom attend the local Orthdox Church.
1 - Iranian-American male who fled Iran in 1972 and is a practicing Muslim

We get along, not because we are forced to, but because we respect each other. Saying "Happy Holiday" instead of "Merry Christmas" is a measure of that respect.

Unfortunately, when we repress expression...no matter how offensive...we create tremendous instabilities that fester below the surface.

So, if you wish to create laws that abridge the whacky "Christians" rights to be rude and offensive at funerals, go ahead. I just hope that everyone has the same definition of rude and offensive as you, because, quite frankly, I find "Cocks" to be a singularly offensive term and I do not think that I should have to face the obvious scatological double-entendre it carries with it. I say, "Ban the Cock!!"
Fair enough. It probably wouldnt have much effect on me either way since I only have one loved one in the military and he is in the Navy so isnt really in harms way as much as the others. I guess they can say whatever they want to as long as it doesnt put others in danger. However, they would probably be putting themselves in danger with those actions so that would be a tricky issue to navigate through. I bet, though, that if I was to walk into a church screaming "God is dead"(even though I fully believe in a God, just using this as an example) that I would be locked up for at least disturbing the peace. At the very least these people who are protesting are disturbing the peace. There are many ways to look at the issue and you make good points.

[fernandomike]

The Supreme Court has placed some limitations on this form of speech with consideration giving to local officials as to the "time, place, and manner" of the demonstration. Cocky is right that there is an issue regarding public safety or disturbing the peace. The government has a duty to protect this hateful speech, but they also must maintain order in the community.
Decisions on how to balance these often conflicting duties are obviously made locally. In this case, I think that it would be wise to move the protest far enough away from the funeral so as not to be seen by the family. This would not infringe upon the free speech/assembly rights of the protests while also eliminating the likelihood of a violent confrontation.

[HSVTider]

When are people gonna get over the whole "people are taking the Christ out of Christmas" thing. In my whole lifetime Christmas has always been about capitalism for about 98% of the population. This year there are a lot of churches that arent even gonna be open because Christmas is on a Sun. and they think it will hurt their attendance. Plus there is no evidence that Christ was even born in Dec. In fact, the date of his birth is never mentioned in the Bible but there is evidence to suggest that he WASNT born in Dec. We hear in Luke 2:8 "Now there were in the same country shepards living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night." This practice was only common from April-Oct., and certainly wouldnt have taken place in Dec.

The date of his birth wasnt even mentioned until 366 A.D. I wonder why? Perhaps because that was a time when the church was trying to spread and get a large following. So why would they pick a time around the end of Dec.? Well, lets see...the Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice was very popular and the church knew people didnt like to give up their traditions. The Bible even warns against one Pagan tradition:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen....For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers, that it move not."

Oh well, Christianity stole another belief's holiday and now many are complaining about how the "heathens" are ruining a Christian holiday. What goes around comes around.

Theres some food for thought as you sit around your christmas tree and complain about how Christmas is being taken from you.

Here's some food for thought, when a school system in Alabama tells my children that they can't say "Merry Christmas", something is severly wrong.

Freedom of Religion wasn't intended to support the liberal notion that "my child shouldn't be exposed to Christianity". It was intended to support the notion of "my child can believe what they want".

You liberal arseholes have forced your religion (atheism=the belief in no deity) on my "children" way more than christianity was ever forced on you.

Now there's some food for thought.

[HSVTider]

Au contraire, India has a 219,471,999 people between the ages of 18 and 49 that are fit for military service according to the CIA Factbook. China has 281,240,272.

Dude China's military reached 200,000,000 active or reserve status soldiers in the 1960s.

India is so fragmented on multiple levels that it would be a large miracle for them to mobilize a 200,000,000 man army with folks left to spare to continue operation of their country.

With a population of over 1 billion, China is the most likely candidate for the fulfillment of that prophecy.

[cocky4ever]

Here's some food for thought, when a school system in Alabama tells my children that they can't say "Merry Christmas", something is severly wrong.

Freedom of Religion wasn't intended to support the liberal notion that "my child shouldn't be exposed to Christianity". It was intended to support the notion of "my child can believe what they want".

You liberal arseholes have forced your religion (atheism=the belief in no deity) on my "children" way more than christianity was ever forced on you.

Now there's some food for thought.
I think your kids should be able to go around celebrating whatever holiday they want to. I wouldnt label myself as a liberal and Im certainly not an atheist. Guess again.... :rolleyes:

I dont have any problem with people celebrating their holiday, but dont go around acting like it was your holiday first and complaining about how people have ruined it for you when followers of your belief basically killed off believers in another faith and stole their traditions. You complain about people taking the Christ out of Christmas when he was never really there to begin with.

[HSVTider]

I think your kids should be able to go around celebrating whatever holiday they want to. I wouldnt label myself as a liberal and Im certainly not an atheist. Guess again.... :rolleyes:

I dont have any problem with people celebrating their holiday, but dont go around acting like it was your holiday first and complaining about how people have ruined it for you when followers of your belief basically killed off believers in another faith and stole their traditions. You complain about people taking the Christ out of Christmas when he was never really there to begin with.

Sorry about that..didn't intend to apply you cocky, but I guess when I said "you" there are only two ways you can take that.

Anyhoo..as far as Christ never being there to begin with, Christmas, in the modern era, celebrates the birth of Christ to some and to others its just a time to be thankful for what you have and exchange presents.

Either way, it has always been marked by the term "Merry Christmas".

This whole taking the "christ" out of christmas started when someone didn't want their child exposed to the word "Christ" and thus began another contortion of the Freedom of Religion.

The liberal courts of this country have allowed folks like the ACLU to twist the laws to oppose Christianity while spreading Atheism (even if it is just a consequence). The problem is that it only gradually gets worse and so we come up with excuses and that we are becoming a more "humanistic" and "peaceful" society, when in fact quite the opposite is true (with regards to the crime rate).

There is a huge double standard and if folks like Me don't stand up and do something about it, by the time I'm old and completely grey, I won't be able to walk up to a stranger on the street and ask them to Church.

Brick by Brick..Brick by Brick.

Also to say that Atheism does not qualify as a religion is flat out wrong.

[sportsgirl]

What a great discussion... as far as prophecies in the Bible, I often think about the prophecies Jesus gave to his disciples in his last days. He told them, "At that time, many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matt. 24:10-14 To me, this certainly sounds like the U.S. and many other parts of the world for that matter. Although many of the prophecies of the Bible do seem to refer to the Middle Eastern region, the rest of the world will certainly be playing a part. It saddens and angers me so much when I see "Christians" who misrepresent the Church and give us all such a bad name! We're all imperfect, I know, but let's face it... some people are just plain evil. Unfortunately, a lot of those evil people call themselves Christians.

I'm also so glad to find others who call themselves both liberal and Christian... we are either a small group or have been very quiet (which I think tends to be our way, I guess). I've always thought that much of the Conservative agenda is so incompatible with Christian thought. James 1:27 says "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." I consider single Moms/parents as "widowed" in some respects and children who have been abandoned by one and sometimes both parents as orphans. When is the last time the Republicans of this country stood grief-stricken in Congress and cried out, "When are we ever going to help the poor and abandoned children of this country? What more can we do for our single Moms and children in foster care!!!" lol

As far as Christmas, I agree that Christ was not likely born in Dec. and that the holiday began in following after a Pagan holiday, but I love celebrating Christ's birth each year. I think it's important for us to always remember how He came into this world through a virgin birth and as a human child. And St. Nicholas, well, he was a saint, right? Who can tell us more about that?

I've been meaning to say this, too... Cocky4 I LOVE your signature. It's so hilarious. Everytime I see it, it makes me smile. That Tom Cruise, he's a real hoot. LOL

[cocky4ever]

Sorry about that..didn't intend to apply you cocky, but I guess when I said "you" there are only two ways you can take that.

Anyhoo..as far as Christ never being there to begin with, Christmas, in the modern era, celebrates the birth of Christ to some and to others its just a time to be thankful for what you have and exchange presents.

Either way, it has always been marked by the term "Merry Christmas".

This whole taking the "christ" out of christmas started when someone didn't want their child exposed to the word "Christ" and thus began another contortion of the Freedom of Religion.

The liberal courts of this country have allowed folks like the ACLU to twist the laws to oppose Christianity while spreading Atheism (even if it is just a consequence). The problem is that it only gradually gets worse and so we come up with excuses and that we are becoming a more "humanistic" and "peaceful" society, when in fact quite the opposite is true (with regards to the crime rate).

There is a huge double standard and if folks like Me don't stand up and do something about it, by the time I'm old and completely grey, I won't be able to walk up to a stranger on the street and ask them to Church.

Brick by Brick..Brick by Brick.

Also to say that Atheism does not qualify as a religion is flat out wrong.
I can see what you're saying. I agree that you should be able to say Merry Cristmas to whoever you want to. If someone hasnt instilled enough self-confidence in their kid to the point that they think a simple two-word phrase is gonna completely change their belief structure then that falls on the parent. Im not a Christian but I dont care when people tell me to have a merry christmas and I wont care if the day comes around when I have kids and they say that to my kid. All religions should be included, not excluded. I wasnt suggesting that Christmas be done away with, just that people should understand that people of other beliefs are celebrating something completely different. Either way, I dont think one side should have enough influence on all the others to control how others celebrate their own beliefs. I think if you want to you should be able to run down the streets screaming merry christmas as loud as you can.

[cocky4ever]

I've been meaning to say this, too... Cocky4 I LOVE your signature. It's so hilarious. Everytime I see it, it makes me smile. That Tom Cruise, he's a real hoot. LOL

LOL:D Thanks....If we wanna talk about a crazy religion then lets talk about Scientology. Talk about a money-making scheme. Its embarassing that they even include the word "science" in that belief system:rolleyes:

[sportsgirl]

Yes, I'm not very familiar with Scientology but it seems very cult-ish. Not to mention that Tom Cruise is a real nutjob these days, lol.

[cocky4ever]

Yes, I'm not very familiar with Scientology but it seems very cult-ish. Not to mention that Tom Cruise is a real nutjob these days, lol.
To make a long story short it is basically like having a very,very high-priced shrink in the form of what is supposed to be a religous consultant. They have some pretty strange beliefs but that is about the jist of it. Its basically a business.

[Cianne]

With a population of over 1 billion, China is the most likely candidate for the fulfillment of that prophecy.

FYI, India's population is over 1 billion, too.

[RW13]

India is also the largest democracy in the world

[rebeldude]

When are people gonna get over the whole "people are taking the Christ out of Christmas" thing. In my whole lifetime Christmas has always been about capitalism for about 98% of the population. This year there are a lot of churches that arent even gonna be open because Christmas is on a Sun. and they think it will hurt their attendance. Plus there is no evidence that Christ was even born in Dec. In fact, the date of his birth is never mentioned in the Bible but there is evidence to suggest that he WASNT born in Dec. We hear in Luke 2:8 "Now there were in the same country shepards living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night." This practice was only common from April-Oct., and certainly wouldnt have taken place in Dec.

The date of his birth wasnt even mentioned until 366 A.D. I wonder why? Perhaps because that was a time when the church was trying to spread and get a large following. So why would they pick a time around the end of Dec.? Well, lets see...the Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice was very popular and the church knew people didnt like to give up their traditions. The Bible even warns against one Pagan tradition:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen....For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers, that it move not."

Oh well, Christianity stole another belief's holiday and now many are complaining about how the "heathens" are ruining a Christian holiday. What goes around comes around.

Theres some food for thought as you sit around your christmas tree and complain about how Christmas is being taken from you.

It appears that Jeremiah could be describing a Christmas tree in versus 2-4, however there is a larger context in that chapter.(Read the entire chapter) Jeremiah is not condeming Christmas trees, he is condeming idolatry. These trees he speaks of are cut down and carved by skilled craftsmen. Carved into what? My Chirstmas tree does not require carving. In verse 8 these trees are called wooden Idols. An important key to understanding any passage is to pay careful attention to its context. Versus 2-4 of Jerimiah 10 are part of a larger context.The larger context is versus 1-16.

[RW13]

Were there any pine trees in Bethlehem (sp?)? I really don't think so. It's just america trying to be Christian on one hand and then exploiting Jesus for profit (Capitalism is God's will though, right? God wants wal-mart to slash prices). This whole gift-giving thing has become ridiculous. I hope God comes down and judges America for that and the people who are the worst offenders should burn in hell. We pretend to be so conservative in this nation, and we'll force some voodoo creationism in high school but yet come every december we throw religion aside and adopt consumerism, and it gets worse each year. As technically a catholic, I'm proud to hear that our leader (the pope) called out "consumerism" this year, and to boycott it, to remember the real reason for the season. He said you only need a nativity scene in your home to teach your kids about jesus. I'm not a huge jesus fan, more of a 1 higher power guy (God), not worshipping humans, but I still like the message the Pope was sending. I just find it sick though, that Christians in America (especially southern ones) will sit and judge a person, and push for creationism, and push for lynching fags, but when it comes to christmas they are the greediest people on the planet. I thought religion and christmas were supposed to be about something more than 30% off sales, and "store openings at 6 a.m.". Maybe not, maybe we're all hypocrites in this country, and that's how we choose to live, people are starving but we're worried about a shoe sale or a clearance sale at home depot, but heaven-forbid a gay couple get married. I hope the christians in this country are the first ones to burn in hell. Sorry for the long rant, I'm just tired of the southern-protestant hypocrisy.....

[rebeldude]

Were there any pine trees in Bethlehem (sp?)? I really don't think so. It's just america trying to be Christian on one hand and then exploiting Jesus for profit (Capitalism is God's will though, right? God wants wal-mart to slash prices). This whole gift-giving thing has become ridiculous. I hope God comes down and judges America for that and the people who are the worst offenders should burn in hell. We pretend to be so conservative in this nation, and we'll force some voodoo creationism in high school but yet come every december we throw religion aside and adopt consumerism, and it gets worse each year. As technically a catholic, I'm proud to hear that our leader (the pope) called out "consumerism" this year, and to boycott it, to remember the real reason for the season. He said you only need a nativity scene in your home to teach your kids about jesus. I'm not a huge jesus fan, more of a 1 higher power guy (God), not worshipping humans, but I still like the message the Pope was sending. I just find it sick though, that Christians in America (especially southern ones) will sit and judge a person, and push for creationism, and push for lynching fags, but when it comes to christmas they are the greediest people on the planet. I thought religion and christmas were supposed to be about something more than 30% off sales, and "store openings at 6 a.m.". Maybe not, maybe we're all hypocrites in this country, and that's how we choose to live, people are starving but we're worried about a shoe sale or a clearance sale at home depot, but heaven-forbid a gay couple get married. I hope the christians in this country are the first ones to burn in hell. Sorry for the long rant, I'm just tired of the southern-protestant hypocrisy.....

Matthew: Chapter 24

[RW13]

I like that Matthew 24 passage. It was neat. The bible is kinda hard to understand sometimes, but I liked it. I'm not sure why you wanted me to read that one unless you're implying that consumerism is the "false prophet", if so I'm totally with you on that rebel, we do have to "beware" of these false prophets and idols, Ipods and jewelry are not the answer....

[Cianne]

It appears that Jeremiah could be describing a Christmas tree in versus 2-4, however there is a larger context in that chapter.(Read the entire chapter) Jeremiah is not condeming Christmas trees, he is condeming idolatry. These trees he speaks of are cut down and carved by skilled craftsmen. Carved into what? My Chirstmas tree does not require carving. In verse 8 these trees are called wooden Idols. An important key to understanding any passage is to pay careful attention to its context. Versus 2-4 of Jerimiah 10 are part of a larger context.The larger context is versus 1-16.

The problem you have with that passage is the translation. The King James and the NIV read totally different. The King James merely says that a tree was chopped down and then what would appear to be tinsel and balls were put on it. The NIV attempts to clarify this and claim that the tree is shaped in someway.

The true meaning of a good bit of passages are lost in translation and thus will never be known so there's no real point in arguing now is there? The closest thing you will get to the original text would be in either the Septuagint or the Vulgate. Someone get a copy of one or the other and see what they say instead of relying on possible agenda pushing in later translations.

[rebeldude]

I like that Matthew 24 passage. It was neat. The bible is kinda hard to understand sometimes, but I liked it. I'm not sure why you wanted me to read that one unless you're implying that consumerism is the "false prophet", if so I'm totally with you on that rebel, we do have to "beware" of these false prophets and idols, Ipods and jewelry are not the answer....

Mathew 24:10 is the verse I really wanted you to notice, It is so true. The Church of today has some serious issues, and I'm not talking about the building.

[rebeldude]

The problem you have with that passage is the translation. The King James and the NIV read totally different. The King James merely says that a tree was chopped down and then what would appear to be tinsel and balls were put on it. The NIV attempts to clarify this and claim that the tree is shaped in someway.

The true meaning of a good bit of passages are lost in translation and thus will never be known so there's no real point in arguing now is there? The closest thing you will get to the original text would be in either the Septuagint or the Vulgate. Someone get a copy of one or the other and see what they say instead of relying on possible agenda pushing in later translations.

Notice Verse 14 This chapter speaks of Idol worship/not Christmas tree.

http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=28&c=10

[RW13]

Notice Verse 14 This chapter speaks of Idol worship/not Christmas tree.

http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=28&c=10

Yeah, that stuff is great. And hey, for your accomplishment today you can say you got me to read the bible, something I haven't done in a long time.....:)

[rebeldude]

Yeah, that stuff is great. And hey, for your accomplishment today you can say you got me to read the bible, something I haven't done in a long time.....:)

That Makes me feel good and most important is maybe it made you feel good. :D :D :D :D

[cocky4ever]

I dont have to read the Bible to figure out whether or not "Christmas" trees are pagan or not. I am much more familiar with Wiccan and Druid traditions and I know that they did use trees and yule logs to celebrate the winter solstice. The bunny is also a symbol of fertility used and was popular during Spring Rites to celebrate the Spring Equinox. Painting eggs was also very popular in the celebration and welcoming of Spring. You probably participate in many Pagan rituals every year, even at your church.

[Cianne]

Notice Verse 14 This chapter speaks of Idol worship/not Christmas tree.

http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=28&c=10

Uh, no it doesn't. The "idol" in this case would be the pagan holiday tree which would inevitably become synomous with the Christmas tree. We can break it down though.

10:3 - "For the laws of the people are vain: for the works of the hand of the workman hath cut a tree out of the forest with an axe." - Ok, we have a tree

10:4 - "He hath decked it with silver and gold: he hath put it together with nails and hammers, that it may not fall asunder." - He put some shiny bits on it because that's what the holiday called for

10:5 - "They are framed after the likeness of a palm tree, and shall not speak: they must be carried to be removed, because they cannot go. Therefore fear them not, for they can neither do evil nor good." - Apparently some Christians thought these trees were actually ents and that Treebeard was going to smite th em from the Tolkien universe. Obviously not bright.

10:6 - "There is none like to thee, O Lord: thou art great, and great is thy name in might." - Praise inserted because it has to be

10:7 - "Who shall not fear thee, O king of nations? for thine is the glory: among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms there is none like unto thee." - More praise

10:8 - "They shall be all proved together to be senseless and foolish: the doctrine of their vanity is wood." - Ok, so they put some shiny bits on a tree and now they are stupid. Ironically, this foreshadows X years into the future as Neo-con Christians cling to their tree as if their own spirtuality depended on it

10:9 - "Silver spread into plates is brought from Tharsis, and gold from Ophaz: the work of the artificer, and of the hand of the coppersmith: violet and purple is their clothing: all these things are the work of artificers." - They got some swanky clothes and some shiny bits, pretty cool sounding party. But since it's swanky, it's evil.

10:10 - "But the Lord is the true God: he is the living God, and the everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his threatening." - My deity is better than you, nyah!

10:11 - "Thus then shall you say to them: The gods that have not made heaven and earth, let them perish from the earth, and from among those places that are under heaven." - OMGZ U HAV MOR TH4N 1 GOD, DIEPLZKTHX

10:12 - "He that maketh the earth by his power, that prepareth the world by his wisdom, and stretcheth out the heavens by his knowledge." - Setting up verse 13

10:13 - "At his voice he giveth a multitude of waters in the heaven, and lifteth up the clouds from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings for rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures." - Everyone knows lightning doesn't make rain, silly man

10:14 - "Every man is become a fool for knowledge, every artist is confounded in his graven idol: for what he hath cast is false, and there is no spirit in them." - Boy this really applies to anyone that thinks for themselves or makes a piece of art. Damn you Michaelangelo.

10:15 - "They are vain things, and a ridiculous work: in the time of their visitation they shall perish." - My hand turkey I drew in kindgergartn is going to be obliterated :(

etc, etc, etc...very esoteric writings for the zealous

[Cianne]

Oh btw, rebeldude, thanks for the link. It's always fun brushing up on the Latin.

[RW13]

That Makes me feel good and most important is maybe it made you feel good. :D :D :D :D

It makes me feel good to know that even the bible disagrees with what's going on these days. You'd think a country of "christians" would behave or act better. It's nice to actually have the good book backing me up for a change....

[jneesy]

if we were living precisely the way god wanted us to we would all be naked and avoiding apple trees

[RW13]

Good Point, although I still don't think a higher power really approves of America 2005, or the world 2005, sorry a black and decker tool set that is 10% off for Christmas is not what God had in mind, I'm pretty sure of that, although who can say for sure...

[Cianne]

Good Point, although I still don't think a higher power really approves of America 2005, or the world 2005, sorry a black and decker tool set that is 10% off for Christmas is not what God had in mind, I'm pretty sure of that, although who can say for sure...

So what you're saying is that God disapproves of sales promotions? Maybe if three old coots didn't present some gifts on a certain someone's birthday which we has already been pointed out wasn't in December, there would be nothing of the sort.

[RW13]

I'm just tired of the superficial, fickle, consumer-frenzied society we live in, Christmas is just the greatest example b/c retailers, businesses, and people take it too far. If you're okay with it, then you're okay with it, I don't have to energy to point out the obvious problems we're in......

[Cianne]

I can point out a big problem. People complain too much.

[rebeldude]

Uh, no it doesn't. The "idol" in this case would be the pagan holiday tree which would inevitably become synomous with the Christmas tree. We can break it down though.

10:3 - "For the laws of the people are vain: for the works of the hand of the workman hath cut a tree out of the forest with an axe." - Ok, we have a tree

10:4 - "He hath decked it with silver and gold: he hath put it together with nails and hammers, that it may not fall asunder." - He put some shiny bits on it because that's what the holiday called for

10:5 - "They are framed after the likeness of a palm tree, and shall not speak: they must be carried to be removed, because they cannot go. Therefore fear them not, for they can neither do evil nor good." - Apparently some Christians thought these trees were actually ents and that Treebeard was going to smite th em from the Tolkien universe. Obviously not bright.

10:6 - "There is none like to thee, O Lord: thou art great, and great is thy name in might." - Praise inserted because it has to be

10:7 - "Who shall not fear thee, O king of nations? for thine is the glory: among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms there is none like unto thee." - More praise

10:8 - "They shall be all proved together to be senseless and foolish: the doctrine of their vanity is wood." - Ok, so they put some shiny bits on a tree and now they are stupid. Ironically, this foreshadows X years into the future as Neo-con Christians cling to their tree as if their own spirtuality depended on it

10:9 - "Silver spread into plates is brought from Tharsis, and gold from Ophaz: the work of the artificer, and of the hand of the coppersmith: violet and purple is their clothing: all these things are the work of artificers." - They got some swanky clothes and some shiny bits, pretty cool sounding party. But since it's swanky, it's evil.

10:10 - "But the Lord is the true God: he is the living God, and the everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his threatening." - My deity is better than you, nyah!

10:11 - "Thus then shall you say to them: The gods that have not made heaven and earth, let them perish from the earth, and from among those places that are under heaven." - OMGZ U HAV MOR TH4N 1 GOD, DIEPLZKTHX

10:12 - "He that maketh the earth by his power, that prepareth the world by his wisdom, and stretcheth out the heavens by his knowledge." - Setting up verse 13

10:13 - "At his voice he giveth a multitude of waters in the heaven, and lifteth up the clouds from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings for rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures." - Everyone knows lightning doesn't make rain, silly man

10:14 - "Every man is become a fool for knowledge, every artist is confounded in his graven idol: for what he hath cast is false, and there is no spirit in them." - Boy this really applies to anyone that thinks for themselves or makes a piece of art. Damn you Michaelangelo.

10:15 - "They are vain things, and a ridiculous work: in the time of their visitation they shall perish." - My hand turkey I drew in kindgergartn is going to be obliterated :(

etc, etc, etc...very esoteric writings for the zealous

Holiday tree? or Holy day tree? You missed verse 14. For what he hath cast is false. (What is false?) And there is no SPIRIT in them. I find your translations very funny! Maybe one day you could translate the entire Bible, but be careful. I think there is something in there about changing it. :p

You didn't to to good on verse 8 either.

[rebeldude]

Oh btw, rebeldude, thanks for the link. It's always fun brushing up on the Latin.

Your Welcome :)

[Cianne]

You missed verse 14. For what he hath cast is false. (What is false?) And there is no SPIRIT in them.

Naw I got verse 14. It says that anytime someone creates something, it has no spirit and that it is false. Well now how is what I made false. It's obviously true because I'm holding it. Doi, geez.

Oh btw, since Christmas trees are made, they have no spirit. Thus they are an abomination according to Jeremiah. Down with ze trees!

[rebeldude]

I can point out a big problem. People complain too much.

See senior :D

[rebeldude]

Naw I got verse 14. It says that anytime someone creates something, it has no spirit and that it is false. Well now how is what I made false. It's obviously true because I'm holding it. Doi, geez.

Oh btw, since Christmas trees are made, they have no spirit. Thus they are an abomination according to Jeremiah. Down with ze trees!

It is false what? refer to Verse 8 :rolleyes:

[Cianne]

It is false what? refer to Verse 8 :rolleyes:

Already got that covered. The way the tree is coveted, it might as well become the doctrine of the season. Therefore, it is false.

[rebeldude]

Already got that covered. The way the tree is coveted, it might as well become the doctrine of the season. Therefore, it is false.

You know that aint what is says hahaha

beside all of this I love my Christmas tree :p

[cocky4ever]

if we were living precisely the way god wanted us to we would all be naked and avoiding apple trees
Im sure thats exactly what God had planned when he created this universe.

[cocky4ever]

You know that aint what is says hahaha

beside all of this I love my Christmas tree :p
Then you love a pagan symbol , simple as that.

[cocky4ever]

I think the "Spirit" that they speak of in this part of the bible refers to the fact that the pagans of the day believed that all things had a "Spirit", not just people. They brought in the trees that could keep their greenery throughout the winter to bring in the "Spirit" of the thing that was strong enough to endure and stand strong throughout the harsh winter months. They then celebrated its presence with offerings to give back what they could for its presence. Pretty simple-minded to think that bringing a tree into your house would make you safe throughout the winter...but then again look at some of the things Christians did back then. Us humans are a creature of habit, so we just kept the tradition and altered to fit into whatever phase of existence we are in....with this phase being capitalism. Therefore we just put a lot of presents under the tree. I do think that the main idea of the whole ritual, which was that all living things had a life force and should be appreciated, held much merit. I guess in that way Christians and Pagans(Wiccans, Neo-Pagans,whatever you wanna call it) have something in common. Our main ideas have been left behind to fit into the system of the current times...with that system being capitalism:(

[GamecockinIL]

Hi, guys! Haven't posted in a while. Been busy. Been reading through this thread with interest. While we started this thread with some discussion on some of the incredibly stupid things that some so-called "Christians" are doing, it has morphed into a discussion about Christ - mas. It is certainly a hot-topic and getting hotter. The two subjects are totally different, yet bear an odd connection. I'd like to share a few thoughts on both.

1. Christians, "Christians", and Hypocrites - In any discussion of Christians, these three categories are inevitably part of the conversation, most often without being defined or identified. For the sake of everyone reading, I offer my definitions of the terms:

Christians - This term applies to anyone who has given their life to Jesus Christ and has accepted His sacrifice on the cross as payment for their sins. It is NOT a term that means anything that is not Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Christians, while not perfect, should be attempting to live a life that is in keeping with the teaching of Jesus. They are trying to live a life that is honoring to God.

"Christians" - Often, there are people who co-opt the term Christian out of ignorance of the proper definition of the term (see above). They are no more Christian than Schwarzenegger is Jewish. It is in this mis-representation of the term, that those who are Christian in the true meaning and application of the word (A Christ follower), look at some, such as those fruit-cakes in Kansas, and say that is not Christian. Just because someone calls themself a Christian, that does not make them one. Only the above definition is appropriate.

Hypocrites - Unfortunately, there are far too many Christians who fall into this category. They have given their heart to Jesus, accepting His sacrifice on the cross as payment for sin (thus qualifying for the proper use of the term). However, they haven't fully surrendered their will to Him yet. They continue to struggle between satisfying their Savior and satisfying their human wants and desires. While they are actually Christian, their lifestyle often becomes more of a stumbling-block to on-looking non-Christians, than a compelling testimony about what God can truly do in a life.

In any discussion that includes the actions of Christians, it is important to note that these distinctions exist and are very real. At times, criticism of Chrisitans is actually criticism of "Christians" (false Christians at best) and hypocrites (weak Christians). Please be aware that there is a third distinction that rarely gets acknowleged in these discussions and that is our first definition of Christian.

2. Christ - mas - It is true that our Christmas celebration was co-opted from pagan rituals. This began to happen when Rome made Christianity the "official" religion of the government. Those of you who have made this assertion are absolutely correct.

However, this country, the USA, was founded on very clear spiritual, religious, and moral principles. By the time the 1700s rolled around in America, that included an entrenched tradition of recognizing Dec 25 as Christmas, the birth of Christ. That tradition has been unchallenged and unintrusive until the last few decades. During that time, politcal correctness has begun to run amok.

As a Christian, I don't get worked up about whether Christmas is the actual birth of Christ (for the record, I don't believe it is). But as an American, it is truly part of our heritage, part of our tradition in a nation founded on clearly Judeo/Christian values. As such, the idea that something that was never even considered as being a problem, and is now suddenly so offensive that we can barely utter the word, is just insane to me.

For me, there is a religious component to this. No question about it. But it is not nearly as offensive to me as a Christian as it is offensive to me as an American. I am willing to lay down my claim to Christmas as Christ's birthday from a religious point of view. But I am far less willing to throw away our recognition of Christmas as a citizen of a nation that was founded on these very principles.

I don't know if this distinction will make much difference to those of you who think Christians are making too much of all this. But maybe it will help a few of you know that there are other elements at play in the discussion.

BTW - Merry Christmas! :)

[ColonelKurtz]

I agree GCinIL, MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!

=====--------

As far as spirtualism is concerned, I'm a thinking that until we reach the point where we actually utilize more than 90% of our available mental capability that we as a species will then be better able to address it.

Today, we just don't know enough and thus default to that comforting panacea of deferring to constructs which provide us comfort enough to carry on with Life. Nothing wrong with that, but when facing a situation where such will simply not suffice, such could cause regrettable consequences.

I find it very healthy to consider such things as I believe it does help us to reach new heights of consiousness, so long as one never loses sight of the fact that our Reality will not be altered by casting our lot with it. You have to survive to exist and in idle time after seeing to that, it's all good.

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

Hi, guys! Haven't posted in a while. Been busy. Been reading through this thread with interest. While we started this thread with some discussion on some of the incredibly stupid things that some so-called "Christians" are doing, it has morphed into a discussion about Christ - mas. It is certainly a hot-topic and getting hotter. The two subjects are totally different, yet bear an odd connection. I'd like to share a few thoughts on both.

1. Christians, "Christians", and Hypocrites - In any discussion of Christians, these three categories are inevitably part of the conversation, most often without being defined or identified. For the sake of everyone reading, I offer my definitions of the terms:

Christians - This term applies to anyone who has given their life to Jesus Christ and has accepted His sacrifice on the cross as payment for their sins. It is NOT a term that means anything that is not Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Christians, while not perfect, should be attempting to live a life that is in keeping with the teaching of Jesus. They are trying to live a life that is honoring to God.

"Christians" - Often, there are people who co-opt the term Christian out of ignorance of the proper definition of the term (see above). They are no more Christian than Schwarzenegger is Jewish. It is in this mis-representation of the term, that those who are Christian in the true meaning and application of the word (A Christ follower), look at some, such as those fruit-cakes in Kansas, and say that is not Christian. Just because someone calls themself a Christian, that does not make them one. Only the above definition is appropriate.

Hypocrites - Unfortunately, there are far too many Christians who fall into this category. They have given their heart to Jesus, accepting His sacrifice on the cross as payment for sin (thus qualifying for the proper use of the term). However, they haven't fully surrendered their will to Him yet. They continue to struggle between satisfying their Savior and satisfying their human wants and desires. While they are actually Christian, their lifestyle often becomes more of a stumbling-block to on-looking non-Christians, than a compelling testimony about what God can truly do in a life.

In any discussion that includes the actions of Christians, it is important to note that these distinctions exist and are very real. At times, criticism of Chrisitans is actually criticism of "Christians" (false Christians at best) and hypocrites (weak Christians). Please be aware that there is a third distinction that rarely gets acknowleged in these discussions and that is our first definition of Christian.

2. Christ - mas - It is true that our Christmas celebration was co-opted from pagan rituals. This began to happen when Rome made Christianity the "official" religion of the government. Those of you who have made this assertion are absolutely correct.

However, this country, the USA, was founded on very clear spiritual, religious, and moral principles. By the time the 1700s rolled around in America, that included an entrenched tradition of recognizing Dec 25 as Christmas, the birth of Christ. That tradition has been unchallenged and unintrusive until the last few decades. During that time, politcal correctness has begun to run amok.

As a Christian, I don't get worked up about whether Christmas is the actual birth of Christ (for the record, I don't believe it is). But as an American, it is truly part of our heritage, part of our tradition in a nation founded on clearly Judeo/Christian values. As such, the idea that something that was never even considered as being a problem, and is now suddenly so offensive that we can barely utter the word, is just insane to me.

For me, there is a religious component to this. No question about it. But it is not nearly as offensive to me as a Christian as it is offensive to me as an American. I am willing to lay down my claim to Christmas as Christ's birthday from a religious point of view. But I am far less willing to throw away our recognition of Christmas as a citizen of a nation that was founded on these very principles.

I don't know if this distinction will make much difference to those of you who think Christians are making too much of all this. But maybe it will help a few of you know that there are other elements at play in the discussion.

BTW - Merry Christmas! :)
Great post, and I agree wholeheartedly.

To everyone............Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, or whatever makes your boat float!

[cocky4ever]

But as an American, it is truly part of our heritage, part of our tradition in a nation founded on clearly Judeo/Christian values.

It wasnt founded on Judeo/Christian values. Laws against rape,murder,stealing,etc. have been around long before christianity. The word God wasnt even mentioned in the Constitution. I also dont remember any Judeo/Christian values that stated an African human= 5/8 of a white human, or that only white land-owning males should have a say so in the way a country is ran. Most of the references to God we find today such as "In God we trust" on our money, "One nation under God" in our pledge,etc. came into the picture long after the this country was founded. It was done by people who were trying to associate America with a certain religion which is one of the main things America was trying to stay away from in the beginning. Just like the celebrations at the end of Dec. were taken over by christians to fit their own beliefs a lot of people have tried to make America conform to their own belief system. It comes from a lot of sides.

[GamecockinIL]

It wasnt founded on Judeo/Christian values....It was done by people who were trying to associate America with a certain religion which is one of the main things America was trying to stay away from in the beginning.

Cocky...surely you are NOT trying to say that our countries foundations are not rooted in strongly religious moorings. The pilgrims and all of the early arrivers at our country's shores were here primarily due to religious/spiritual issues - Religious freedom. They wanted to be in a place where they could worship as they saw fit without government mandating what they could do.

Those who arrived early were clearly deeply religious and grounded in traditional Judeo/Christian ethics. Were there errors in decisions that are regrettable in our nations history? Of course. But to say that we were not founded on those grounds is to disregard the truth of the early settlers.

There is no intellectual argument to say that this isn't true.

[rebeldude]

Great post, and I agree wholeheartedly.

To everyone............Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, or whatever makes your boat float!

I prefer Merry Christmas, but that last one is hilarious :D :D

[BAMAMARINE]

Uh, no it doesn't. The "idol" in this case would be the pagan holiday tree which would inevitably become synomous with the Christmas tree. We can break it down though.

10:3 - "For the laws of the people are vain: for the works of the hand of the workman hath cut a tree out of the forest with an axe." - Ok, we have a tree

10:4 - "He hath decked it with silver and gold: he hath put it together with nails and hammers, that it may not fall asunder." - He put some shiny bits on it because that's what the holiday called for

10:5 - "They are framed after the likeness of a palm tree, and shall not speak: they must be carried to be removed, because they cannot go. Therefore fear them not, for they can neither do evil nor good." - Apparently some Christians thought these trees were actually ents and that Treebeard was going to smite th em from the Tolkien universe. Obviously not bright.

10:6 - "There is none like to thee, O Lord: thou art great, and great is thy name in might." - Praise inserted because it has to be

10:7 - "Who shall not fear thee, O king of nations? for thine is the glory: among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms there is none like unto thee." - More praise

10:8 - "They shall be all proved together to be senseless and foolish: the doctrine of their vanity is wood." - Ok, so they put some shiny bits on a tree and now they are stupid. Ironically, this foreshadows X years into the future as Neo-con Christians cling to their tree as if their own spirtuality depended on it

10:9 - "Silver spread into plates is brought from Tharsis, and gold from Ophaz: the work of the artificer, and of the hand of the coppersmith: violet and purple is their clothing: all these things are the work of artificers." - They got some swanky clothes and some shiny bits, pretty cool sounding party. But since it's swanky, it's evil.

10:10 - "But the Lord is the true God: he is the living God, and the everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his threatening." - My deity is better than you, nyah!

10:11 - "Thus then shall you say to them: The gods that have not made heaven and earth, let them perish from the earth, and from among those places that are under heaven." - OMGZ U HAV MOR TH4N 1 GOD, DIEPLZKTHX

10:12 - "He that maketh the earth by his power, that prepareth the world by his wisdom, and stretcheth out the heavens by his knowledge." - Setting up verse 13

10:13 - "At his voice he giveth a multitude of waters in the heaven, and lifteth up the clouds from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings for rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures." - Everyone knows lightning doesn't make rain, silly man

10:14 - "Every man is become a fool for knowledge, every artist is confounded in his graven idol: for what he hath cast is false, and there is no spirit in them." - Boy this really applies to anyone that thinks for themselves or makes a piece of art. Damn you Michaelangelo.

10:15 - "They are vain things, and a ridiculous work: in the time of their visitation they shall perish." - My hand turkey I drew in kindgergartn is going to be obliterated :(

etc, etc, etc...very esoteric writings for the zealous

Sorry this took so long I had to research some, and I got help from a friend who is a very devoted Christian.


Read in this translation...
Jer 10:1 * The LORD said: Listen to me, you people of Israel.
Jer 10:2 Don't follow the customs of those nations who become frightened when they see something strange happen in the sky.
Jer 10:3 Their religion is worthless! They chop down a tree, carve the wood into an idol,
Jer 10:4 cover it with silver and gold, and then nail it down so it won't fall over.
Jer 10:5 An idol is no better than a scarecrow. It can't speak, and it has to be carried, because it can't walk. Why worship an idol that can't help or harm you?
Jer 10:6 Our LORD, great and powerful, you alone are God.
Jer 10:7 You are King of the nations. Everyone should worship you. No human anywhere on earth is wiser than you.
Jer 10:8 Idols are worthless, and anyone who worships them is a fool!
Jer 10:9 Idols are made by humans. A carver shapes the wood. A metalworker hammers out a covering of gold from Uphaz or of silver from Tarshish. Then the idol is dressed in blue and purple clothes.
Jer 10:10 You, LORD, are the only true and living God. You will rule for all time. When you are angry the earth shakes, and nations are destroyed.
Jer 10:11 You told me to say that idols did not create the heavens and the earth, and that you, the LORD, will destroy every idol.
Jer 10:12 With your wisdom and power you created the earth and spread out the heavens.
Jer 10:13 The waters in the heavens roar at your command. You make clouds appear-- you send the winds from your storehouse and make lightning flash in the rain.
Jer 10:14 People who make idols are so stupid! They will be disappointed, because their false gods are not alive.
Jer 10:15 Idols are merely a joke, and when the time is right, they will be destroyed.
Jer 10:16 But you, Israel's God, created all things, and you chose Israel to be your very own. Your name is the LORD All-Powerful

This is not a command not to worship trees (that's common sense) but an example as to how ridiculous it is to put anything before God (idols are anything that is put ahead of God)

We don't worship the trees we put up during this time of year, it is merley a tradition of decoration. In my opinion a faithful Christian does not celebrate xmas as a religious holiday, but as a time of year to enjoy being with family.
Here is a good link to the history of the Christmas Tree http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

[cocky4ever]

Cocky...surely you are NOT trying to say that our countries foundations are not rooted in strongly religious moorings. The pilgrims and all of the early arrivers at our country's shores were here primarily due to religious/spiritual issues - Religious freedom. They wanted to be in a place where they could worship as they saw fit without government mandating what they could do.

Those who arrived early were clearly deeply religious and grounded in traditional Judeo/Christian ethics. Were there errors in decisions that are regrettable in our nations history? Of course. But to say that we were not founded on those grounds is to disregard the truth of the early settlers.

There is no intellectual argument to say that this isn't true.
What about the foundation of our country when it started was exclusively Judeo/Christian? Most of the laws were common sense about not permitting murder,rape, stealing,etc. Seeing as how the God of the Bible is the one and only God in the belief system of Christians it seems as though that if this country were founded on that system there would have been a mention of him in the Constitution. There wasnt. How can you say that a country was built around a certain religion when there isnt even a mention of God in that country's Constitution?? Not all the founding fathers were christians, although most probably were. Still, there is a difference between being founded BY mostly christians, and being founded ON mostly christian beliefs.

[cocky4ever]

Read in this translation...

Isnt it so convenient when you can just go get a different translation whenever you want a book to say something different? There are many different translations, each of which can be taken umpteen different ways. I guess it all depends on what you want to hear.

As far as the link to the first christmas trees it is well known that the decorating of trees dates back much further than Christianity. Are you telling me that you think it started in the 7th century? That guy just came along and bit off someone elses style then gave it a new meaning so that his God wouldnt punish him with eternal damnation for having an idol in his house. He probably just did it to try and convince the people that they could join his religion and still keep their traditions. I still cant figure out why Christians are so damn determined to make everyone else believe the same thing they do.:confused:

[BAMAMARINE]

Isnt it so convenient when you can just go get a different translation whenever you want a book to say something different? There are many different translations, each of which can be taken umpteen different ways. I guess it all depends on what you want to hear.

As far as the link to the first christmas trees it is well known that the decorating of trees dates back much further than Christianity. Are you telling me that you think it started in the 7th century? That guy just came along and bit off someone elses style then gave it a new meaning so that his God wouldnt punish him with eternal damnation for having an idol in his house. He probably just did it to try and convince the people that they could join his religion and still keep their traditions. I still cant figure out why Christians are so damn determined to make everyone else believe the same thing they do.:confused:

I am sorry if you feel like I am trying to push my religion onto you, I can assure you that was not my intention. We all are unique and I guess interrprut the Bible differently. The way I interrprut it is that I am suppose to let everyone I can know about Jesus, now I very often fall short in doing this, unless the oppurtunity presents itself. About the Christmas tree I honestly dont know when it came about and why, I just found the link and thought it was interesting. I will agree people can take a translation and manipulate the words to make it what they want to hear, that is why you have to do your own research and study.

[rebeldude]

Isnt it so convenient when you can just go get a different translation whenever you want a book to say something different? There are many different translations, each of which can be taken umpteen different ways. I guess it all depends on what you want to hear.

As far as the link to the first christmas trees it is well known that the decorating of trees dates back much further than Christianity. Are you telling me that you think it started in the 7th century? That guy just came along and bit off someone elses style then gave it a new meaning so that his God wouldnt punish him with eternal damnation for having an idol in his house. He probably just did it to try and convince the people that they could join his religion and still keep their traditions. I still cant figure out why Christians are so damn determined to make everyone else believe the same thing they do.:confused:

No one here is trying to make you believe, I am reading opinions based on beliefs. Can't Christians offer opinions without being accused of throwing their religion down you throat? Puleeeeze

[cocky4ever]

No one here is trying to make you believe, I am reading opinions based on beliefs. Can't Christians offer opinions without being accused of throwing their religion down you throat? Puleeeeze
Did I say anything about you throwing your beliefs down my throat? I was talking about the guy in the story who set out to make people belive the same way he did along with countless other christians throughout the history of the religion. You can offer whatever opinion you want.....

[rebeldude]

Did I say anything about you throwing your beliefs down my throat? I was talking about the guy in the story who set out to make people belive the same way he did along with countless other christians throughout the history of the religion. You can offer whatever opinion you want.....

yep, This is what you said: :confused:


I still cant figure out why Christians are so damn determined to make everyone else believe the same thing they do.

[cocky4ever]

yep, This is what you said: :confused:


I still cant figure out why Christians are so damn determined to make everyone else believe the same thing they do.
Ok so maybe I worded my thoughts wrong but right before I said that I was talking about the guy in the link. I would've thought that as much as talk about using things in context you would be the last one to take my words out of context. Oh well, either way Im tired of this thread so lets move on and all have happy holidays, no matter what it is we're celebrating. :)

[RW13]

Beeds is a liberal b/c he doesn't want to be told what to do, he needs to fall in-line like the rest of us :).............., Liberal Liberal Liberal Liberal!!! (The post 2001 all emcompassing buzzword).....:)

[JerryBeeds]

Beeds is a liberal b/c he doesn't want to be told what to do, he needs to fall in-line like the rest of us :).............., Liberal Liberal Liberal Liberal!!! (The post 2001 all emcompassing buzzword).....:)
What does "Beeds" have to do with anything that is being discussed here?

[RW13]

Calm down commie, I'm only playing.....

[Cianne]

We don't worship the trees we put up during this time of year, it is merley a tradition of decoration. In my opinion a faithful Christian does not celebrate xmas as a religious holiday, but as a time of year to enjoy being with family.


I haven't said anything other than that. It's a decoration. It doesn't matter what the decoration is called because you know what it is, and that's all that matters. Of course, you would be just as much in the right as anyone else if you ho ho ho'd your way into the Northwestern forests to cut down a spruce tree whether you called it a spruce tree, a Christmas tree, a pagan tree, or a tree that I can hang dangly shiny bits on.

In regards to why you celebrate Christmas, I enjoy your thinking seeing as how that's how I think I view it as well. I'll leave the religious holiday stuff up to Advent .