Chain of Responsibility Regarding Katrina...

[AuburnandGamecockGirl]

I am not sure if this has been posted before, but I received it in an email today as a response to the notion that President Bush should be blamed for so much of the havoc of Hurricane Katrina. Read on....

In case you aren't familiar with how our government is SUPPOSED to work:
> The chain of responsiblity for the protection of the citizens in New Orleans
> is:
>
> 1. The Mayor
> 2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security (a political appointee of
> the Governor who reports to the Governor)
> 3. The Governor
> 4. The Head of Homeland Security
> 5. The President
>
> What did each do?
>
> 1. The mayor, with 5 days advance, waited until 2 days before he announced a
> mandatory evacuation (at the behest of the President). The he failed to
> provide transportation for those without transport even though he had
> hundreds of buses at his disposal.
>
> 2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security failed to have any plan for
> a contingency that has been talked about for 50 years. Then he blames the
> Feds for not doing what he should have done. (So much for political
> appointees)
>
> 3. The Governor, despite a declaration of disaster by the President 2 DAYS
> BEFORE the storm hit, failed to take advantage of the offer of Federal
> troops and aid. Until 2 DAYS AFTER the storm hit.
>
> 4. The Director of Homeland Security positioned assets in the area to be
> ready when the Governor called for them, before the flooding.
>
> 5. The President urged a mandatory evacuation, and even declared a disaster
> State of Emergency, freeing up millions of dollars of federal assistance,
> should the Governor decide to use it.
>
> Oh and by the way, the levees that broke were the responsibility of the
> local landowners and the local levee board to maintain, NOT THE FEDERAL
> GOVERNMENT. The levee board has collected taxes for decades
> and spent the money on buying a casino, and a private airplane for their
> use. You haven't heard much about
> that in the news, but watch for it, as it's going to have to come out sooner
> or later.
>
> The disaster in New Orleans is what you get after decades of corrupt local
> and state government going all the way back to Huey Long. If you don't
> remember him, he's worth looking up.
>
> Funds for disaster protection and relief have been flowing into this city
> for decades, and where has it gone, but into the pockets of the politicos
> and their friends. (See "levee board", further down)
>
> Decades of socialist government in New Orleans has sapped all self reliance
> from the community, and made them dependent upon government for every little
> thing, or a small welfare state of loyal voters.
>
> Political correctness and a lack of will to fight crime have created the
> single most corrupt police force in the country, and has permitted gang
> violence to flourish.
>
> The sad thing is that there are many poor folks who have suffered and died
> needlessly because those that they voted into office failed to protect them.
>
> For those who missed item 5 (where the President?s level of accountability
> is discussed), it is made more clear in a New Orleans Times-Picayune article
> dated August 28:
>
> NEW ORLEANS (AP) In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a
> mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.
>
> Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them stranded tourists,
> would be unable to leave, the city set up 10 places of last resort for
> people to go, including the Superdome.
>
> The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the
> city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines
> had already cancelled all flights.
>
> Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said
> President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for
> the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.
>
> The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin's court to carry out the evacuation
> order. With a 5-day heads-up, he had the authority to use any and all
> services to evacuate all residents from the city, as documented in a city
> emergency preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and failing
> to make full use of resources available within city limits, Nagin and his
> administration dropped the ball.
>
> Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert have displayed lethal,
> mind boggling incompetence before, during and after Katrina.
>
> As for Mayor Nagin, he and his pathetic police chief should resign as well.
> That city's government is incompetent from one end to the other. The people
> of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of
> clowns is capable of giving them.
>
> If you're keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses that could have carried
> 33,350 people out of New Orleans in one trip get ruined in the floods. Baton
> Rouge is not that far up the road, so they could have
> made multiple trips. Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. It probably
> would have worked if they'd bothered to follow their emergency preparedness
> plan, already in place.
>
> As for all the race-baiting rhetoric and Bush-bashing coming from prominent
> blacks on the left, don't expect Ray Nagin to be called out on the carpet
> for falling short. You want to know why? Here's why:
>
> It's more convenient to blame a white president for what went wrong than to
> hold a black mayor and his administration accountable for gross negligence
> and failing to fully carry out an established emergency preparedness plan.
>
> To hold Nagin and his administration accountable for dropping the ball
> amounts to letting loose the shouts and cries of Racism!?. It's sad, it's
> wrong, but it's standard operating procedure for the media and left-wing
> black leadership.
>
> Mark my words: you will not hear a word of criticism from Jesse Jackson Sr.,
> Randall Robinson, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP, or Kanye West
> being directed toward Clarence Ray Nagin Jr. Why? Because he is just another
> black politician, instead of a responsible elected official who happens to
> be black. In the mindset of more-blacker-than-thou blacks, black politicians
> who are on their side can do no wrong.
>

[WayzUp]

I got this forwarded to me too. I started skimming instead of reading after #3 because the point made there lent itself to the authors' ability as a spin-doctor.

The declaration of disaster he refers to that President Bush made was for areas still flooded by Tropical Storm Cindy that had hit a little less than 2 months before and were still flooded...it had nothing to do with Hurricane Katrina. He did free up $5.4 million for the victims of Cindy though, I’m sure they appreciate it.

Playing the blame game when there are still people out there dying of exposure, dehydration, starvation, lack of medicine (for diabetics, epileptics, etc) and any number of other reasons accomplishes nothing but to feed the anger (just or unjust) that many feel when they watch CNN or Fox News or Oprah and feel someone MUST be responsible. But no one is and that pisses people off.

Fact of the matter is, New Orleans was a modern-day Pompeii. They lived in a city below sea level, right next to a lake that covers over 27,000 acres, on a gulf that was an annual visitor of tropical storms and hurricanes and had a levee system built to only withstand a category 3 or less hurricane. With all due respect, that’s like driving a car & wearing a seat belt that can only save you from crashes at 35mph or less. A direct hit from a category 4 or stronger was just a matter of time. What could have happened....happened. They could have gotten out & the years of near-misses gave them the false sense of invulnerability needed to turn the worst case scenario into the worst case reality. No one is to blame but those who chose to stay behind for whatever reason.

That being said, the anger most people are directing at President Bush and those in the supposed ‘chain of command’ is the cluster-fock of a response that followed. The remnants of Katrina were up here in my neck of the woods (Michigan) when the first ship left Norfolk, VA with supplies bound for the Gulf Coast. That was a full three days after Katrina made landfall. Is there any stretch of the gulf coast that isn’t populated? Where’d they expect this category 5 hurricane to go exactly? Wherever it hit, people were going to need help, that’s the only thing we did know actually. That it took four days for the first relief ship to take off and at least as long for the first National Guardsmen to be sent down (according to BeeDee, whom I have nothing but utter respect for) is not even close to acceptable. If you need to place blame, blame whoever’s responsible for that. All Mayor Ray Nagin has done is point out the obvious; that Americans were dying by the hundreds, perhaps thousands and not everything in our countries’ power was being done to help them....no one can dispute that.

[AuburnandGamecockGirl]

I am just tired of the Bush-bashing and the finger pointing. It is sad that in modern day America, things are allowed to happen like this. The media is feeding the frenzy that it was Bush who didn't respond. I simply submitted this information to show that Bush wasn't the first one in command on this one. I totally agree with you that the response took too long. I don't understand why the supplies weren't there until several days later or why more people weren't provided transportation and shelter out of New Orleans on those buses before the hurricane hit. I mainly want our country UNITED to take care of its people rather than beating each other down in the process.

[WayzUp]

I am just tired of the Bush-bashing and the finger pointing. It is sad that in modern day America, things are allowed to happen like this. The media is feeding the frenzy that it was Bush who didn't respond. I simply submitted this information to show that Bush wasn't the first one in command on this one. I totally agree with you that the response took too long. I don't understand why the supplies weren't there until several days later or why more people weren't provided transportation and shelter out of New Orleans on those buses before the hurricane hit. I mainly want our country UNITED to take care of its people rather than beating each other down in the process.
I totally agree...Bush's approval rating is what? 36% now? That, to me, means about 64% of Americans polled think the reason Hurricane Katrina decided to hit New Orleans is because Bush told her to. I mean c'mon...

The effort that people are putting forth now, though...is amazing to me. I'm sure it's the same everywhere but there are truckloads of things being collected and sent from Michigan to relief centers all over the south. Heck, some of our state's sherriffs were deputized and given arrest authority in the State of Louisiana in that first real crackdown on looters & gang violence that got so much publicity. But you don't hear those stories repeated 1,000 times on the 24 hour news channels...they'd rather show you Hillary Clinton who wants to get a subcommittee together so they can make sure everyone's pointing the blame finger in the right direction. Makes me wanna jump in the TV, grab her by the scruff of her collar and her belt, carry her ass down to New Orleans and put her in the middle of the New Orleans where she can show everyone what exactly should be done...since she obviously knows. :rolleyes:

The more we lock elbows and help the people affected by this, the better. The number of dead is a number we all aren't going to want to hear and we have all these talking heads telling everyone who's fault it is. I think about it and I want to cry. They think about it and wonder how they can spin it to their political benefit. :mad: And these are our leaders? :rolleyes:

[Cianne]

Hey, if Nancy Pelosi said Bush is at fault then by God, Bush is at fault ! All hail Pelosi !

[JaGuArApRiL]

now before i say this ha..Aurburn girl I adore ya ..and you have some great posts...My particular anger at Bush isn't pushed at the fact that he "made this happen"...My issue with the president and all those mentioned above is this...You are the President of the UNITED STATES your word SUPERCEDES any local or state govnt. You knew this Hurricane was coming and if need be by God you should have left that vacation gone to the soon to be affected areas told the Mayors and whom ever else to get off their a**es and get those poor people out of their like YESTERDAY. Im not bashing him or the others..The response to this national disaster was ridiculous and we have flooded to other countries faster than we've have aided our own nation...I feel nothing but sadness for those affected and wish them all the very best in recovering. It saddens me that even after all this ...It is still the same Blame Game ..Wasnt my fault..well wasnt mine...wasnt mine i was lower on the chain..wasnt mine..BLAH BLAH BLAH! People died!! ..People that could have been saved!!...People that are tied to post or fences or whatever so that their bodies may later be recovered...I can honestly say that at some points of the day I am ashamed that we didn't try harder to protect our own people. May God shine on those hit and bring some kind of blessing to their lives...thats my .002 cents...

[fernandomike]

In a disaster of this magnitude, there is plenty of blame to go around. Frankly, government failed those people. I am talking about the entire "chain of responsibility," local, state, and federal. We are contracted with our government in a relationship that is supposed to benefit all. We allow them to lead (pass laws, wage wars, levy taxes, etc) and in exchange one of their larger duties is to protect us. With estimates of the dead reaching upwards of 10,000, it is clear in this case from the highest level to the lowest, they blew this one.

[Cianne]

With estimates of the dead reaching upwards of 10,000, it is clear in this case from the highest level to the lowest, they blew this one.

Humanity failed, not government. While there were wonderful people doing wonderful things through the Red Cross and whatnot, there are people using this disaster to take advantage of others, ie people with guns shooting police, people looting, police abusing powers, Jesse Jackson using mass deaths to push a political agenda, etc.

[Cianne]

You are the President of the UNITED STATES your word SUPERCEDES any local or state govnt.

Not entirely true and also part of the problem, yet if it were true, other problems would exist.

[Rebeldrummer]

Come on people we can all look back now and say we knew this was coming ? hindsight is easy . No one knew this hurricane was going to be like this. for one it changed size and course continually .

[Cianne]

Come on people we can all look back now and say we knew this was coming ? hindsight is easy . No one knew this hurricane was going to be like this. for one it changed size and course continually .

The NOAA knew.

[fernandomike]

Humanity failed, not government. While there were wonderful people doing wonderful things through the Red Cross and whatnot, there are people using this disaster to take advantage of others, ie people with guns shooting police, people looting, police abusing powers, Jesse Jackson using mass deaths to push a political agenda, etc.

I don't think that humanity failed. This ongoing relief effort is enormous and shows how wonderfully we, the people, pull together in the face of such a disaster. To suggest that humanity failed implies to me that the majority of the victims were out there shooting and looting for non-essential purposes, etc. I don't believe that was the case.

[Cianne]

I don't think that humanity failed. This ongoing relief effort is enormous and shows how wonderfully we, the people, pull together in the face of such a disaster. To suggest that humanity failed implies to me that the majority of the victims were out there doing shooting, looting for non-essential purposes, etc. I don't believe that was the case.

I use humanity not as a global term for people but rather as morals, beliefs, and responsibilities. Example: Mayor Nagin should have been helping his people evacuate, but instead, he was going on every talk show on the planet trying to shirk his own responsibilities to his citizens.

[fernandomike]

I use humanity not as a global term for people but rather as morals, beliefs, and responsibilities. Example: Mayor Nagin should have been helping his people evacuate, but instead, he was going on every talk show on the planet trying to shirk his own responsibilities to his citizens.

His mistakes are what I would call government failures. I doubt that his mistakes are a result of him being inhumane. He failed in his governmental capacity.
Anyway, I get your point.

[Cianne]

His mistakes are what I would call government failures. I doubt that his mistakes are a result of him being inhumane. He failed in his governmental capacity.
Anyway, I get your point.

Yea, government failures are abound. That's not the problem I have. It's the inability of anyone to say, "Yea, we screwed up. We're doing what we can right now to fix it."

[AuburnandGamecockGirl]

now before i say this ha..Aurburn girl I adore ya ..and you have some great posts...My particular anger at Bush isn't pushed at the fact that he "made this happen"...My issue with the president and all those mentioned above is this...You are the President of the UNITED STATES your word SUPERCEDES any local or state govnt. You knew this Hurricane was coming and if need be by God you should have left that vacation gone to the soon to be affected areas told the Mayors and whom ever else to get off their a**es and get those poor people out of their like YESTERDAY. Im not bashing him or the others..The response to this national disaster was ridiculous and we have flooded to other countries faster than we've have aided our own nation...I feel nothing but sadness for those affected and wish them all the very best in recovering. It saddens me that even after all this ...It is still the same Blame Game ..Wasnt my fault..well wasnt mine...wasnt mine i was lower on the chain..wasnt mine..BLAH BLAH BLAH! People died!! ..People that could have been saved!!...People that are tied to post or fences or whatever so that their bodies may later be recovered...I can honestly say that at some points of the day I am ashamed that we didn't try harder to protect our own people. May God shine on those hit and bring some kind of blessing to their lives...thats my .002 cents...

April,
I do agree with you on just about everything you said. My thoughts are that the media is turning this into a frenzy about who to blame. I agree more should have been done...no matter who should have done it to begin with. I just think that our country needs to unite together and stop bashing each other in the process of helping these people (black, white, asian, purple, pink, kids, dogs, elderly, etc.). I also think that folks like Hilary Clinton need to stop worrying about how they can bash the republicans in order to help their campaign in the future by wanting to develop a committee to investigate what was done wrong. Rather than that, let's send everyone who is able and willing to go to help save lives and give the ones who were so disgracefully killed by this hurricane a proper burial. When this first happened, I was watching on TV in horror thinking "this doesn't happen in the United States...no way!" Seeing everything that has happened in the past 2 weeks has made me realize we are all vulnerable to devastation. We never know what is around the corner. Here we sit in our own sheltered world thinking we are safe in our country and the reality is that horrible things could happen at any given moment of time. I am feeling a lot like I did after Sept. 11th. I am feeling very vulnerable and realizing my mortality from this whole thing. That is such a scary feeling. I am very proud to see how Americans have been responding with money, donations, helping shelters, etc. That gives me a sense of pride in that I am proud to be a citizen of the United States of America.

[AuburnandGamecockGirl]

In a disaster of this magnitude, there is plenty of blame to go around. Frankly, government failed those people. I am talking about the entire "chain of responsibility," local, state, and federal. We are contracted with our government in a relationship that is supposed to benefit all. We allow them to lead (pass laws, wage wars, levy taxes, etc) and in exchange one of their larger duties is to protect us. With estimates of the dead reaching upwards of 10,000, it is clear in this case from the highest level to the lowest, they blew this one.

I totally agree with you, Fernandomike.

[AuburnandGamecockGirl]

Humanity failed, not government. While there were wonderful people doing wonderful things through the Red Cross and whatnot, there are people using this disaster to take advantage of others, ie people with guns shooting police, people looting, police abusing powers, Jesse Jackson using mass deaths to push a political agenda, etc.

I think it was a combination of all levels of government and humanity. I agree with your statement that other people are taking advantage of this whole situation.

[GamecocksRule]

My thing is that it has happend...it is truly one of the most tragic things that has happend in our country destruction wise (from mother nature) in a long while. Instead of blaming the the chain of people supposed to be in charge, we need to focus THAT energy on relief and aid to the people that need it most in that region of our country. In life we are supposed to "learn" from hard lessons, and I only hope that our gov't on ALL levels has learned to prepare for tragedies that may occur in the future...

[LedCock]

New Orleans has known for many many years that this is exactly what would happen if a storm like this hit. We all know they like to gamble down there. Well, they pushed their luck this time and triple skull and crossbones came up.

[Rebeldrummer]

COme on how is there blame ...

If congress would giv ethe money they are gonna use to make a committe to the relief effort that would be better ...

[GeauxTo]

Many of the people who didn't evacuate (or weren't evacuated) were primarily self-induced products of a welfare state. Most lived a life expecting their government to house them, feed them, and reward them for their lifestyles; and the government did just that, decade after decade. They felt no responsibility to take any measures whatsoever to evacuate. Why should they? They had never, ever, been held accountable for their actions before. They had never, ever, had to take any responsibility before. And then, when it was just them and the criminals left, it was like throwing them to the wolves. A terrible, terrible situation, yes, but one for which the welfare-state mentality must take a large share of the responsibility.

[fernandomike]

Many of the people who didn't evacuate (or weren't evacuated) were primarily self-induced products of a welfare state. Most lived a life expecting their government to house them, feed them, and reward them for their lifestyles; and the government did just that, decade after decade. They felt no responsibility to take any measures whatsoever to evacuate. Why should they? They had never, ever, been held accountable for their actions before. They had never, ever, had to take any responsibility before. And then, when it was just them and the criminals left, it was like throwing them to the wolves. A terrible, terrible situation, yes, but one for which the welfare-state mentality must take a large share of the responsibility.

I thought that during the Clinton adminstration Congress passed welfare reform limiting the ability of welfare "lifers" to stay on the system.
Also, it seems quite speculative to say that such a large group of people who you don't know personally "never, ever" had to be accountable or take responsibility for their actions.

[GeauxTo]

I thought that during the Clinton adminstration Congress passed welfare reform limiting the ability of welfare "lifers" to stay on the system.
Also, it seems quite speculative to say that such a large group of people who you don't know personally "never, ever" had to be accountable or take responsibility for their actions.
Unfortunately, the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans helped create the Welfare-State Mentality. Most of those I'm speaking about were from projects like Treme and were, sorry to say, largely self-induced welfare staters, sustained by the State, the City, and the Federal Government. My post is pretty reliable, I think. Just something that perhaps many outsiders have not considered.

[WayzUp]

Unfortunately, the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans helped create the Welfare-State Mentality. Most of those I'm speaking about were from projects like Treme and were, sorry to say, largely self-induced welfare staters, sustained by the State, the City, and the Federal Government. My post is pretty reliable, I think. Just something that perhaps many outsiders have not considered.
This point won't win you many friends G, but I think you're more right than a lot of people out there would like to admit.

I'm in sales...I drive around all freakin' day a lot of the time and my customers are, for the most part, in urban industrial areas that I wouldn't dare go into after dark. These 'self-induced welfare staters' that you mention are evident in most every above-average sized town in my territory and I cover a great deal of southern michigan.

I'll sound like a bigot but I see them every time I go out...they're out on their front porches all day literally doing nothing. Or they're walking down the sidewalk, hat on sideways with a 40oz in one hand, a pack of smokes in the other and clothes that look like they haven't been washed in a month wearing winter coats in the middle of summer just because it has a Bulls logo on it. Or they're talking to themselves and waving at my car like they know me. And it never fails to make me think in my head, "Damn, how the fock can you people afford to do jack-sh!t all day...hell, I'm barely making it.." and if I don't catch it, that thought is always followed by, "Oh yeah...your job is to collect the check from those taxes I bitch about..." :rolleyes:

That all being said, their lifestyle may have led to a lot of these people being stuck in New Orleans but they don't (didn't) deserve to die for it. A lot of them could be 'free-riders' but we don't know whether just as many were trying their best to NOT be welfare staters....and that's why they deserved a quicker response than they got.

[uscrebel]

Blame? No. Responsibility. This issue is not "Whose fault is this?" Rather, we should be asking, "What are your responsibilities and have you discharged those duties?"

In this case there are many overlapping areas of responsibility and many cases in which one person may or may not have been able to discharge his/her responsibilities based on how efficiently someone else did his or hers.

As to so-called "Bush-Bashing," it does not surprise me that some people find him at fault. What I find interesting is that it is now starting to come from areas in which he formerly enjoyed strong support.

No matter whether you believe Bush to have responsibility or not, the circus at the highest levels of FEMA are completely laughable. I think about our friend BeeDee who has finally managed to get on the ground on the Gulfcoast and the frustration he must be feeling. (Excuse me for speaking for you, BeeDee.) Here is a man trying hard discharge his responsibility and finding his path blocked by the fury of the disaster and the ineptitude of the managers.

My recommendation is that instead of patting George Bush on the back for all he has done, that we pat guys like BeeDee on the back because they have actually left families to be a part of the relief effort.

I really don't give a crap about George Bush or Ray Nagins, but my hat is off to you and everyone in your office, BeeDee. I know you miss the family...especially the new baby.

Be safe, Dude.

[fernandomike]

This point won't win you many friends G, but I think you're more right than a lot of people out there would like to admit.

I'm in sales...I drive around all freakin' day a lot of the time and my customers are, for the most part, in urban industrial areas that I wouldn't dare go into after dark. These 'self-induced welfare staters' that you mention are evident in most every above-average sized town in my territory and I cover a great deal of southern michigan.

I'll sound like a bigot but I see them every time I go out...they're out on their front porches all day literally doing nothing. Or they're walking down the sidewalk, hat on sideways with a 40oz in one hand, a pack of smokes in the other and clothes that look like they haven't been washed in a month wearing winter coats in the middle of summer just because it has a Bulls logo on it. Or they're talking to themselves and waving at my car like they know me. And it never fails to make me think in my head, "Damn, how the fock can you people afford to do jack-sh!t all day...hell, I'm barely making it.." and if I don't catch it, that thought is always followed by, "Oh yeah...your job is to collect the check from those taxes I bitch about..." :rolleyes:

That all being said, their lifestyle may have led to a lot of these people being stuck in New Orleans but they don't (didn't) deserve to die for it. A lot of them could be 'free-riders' but we don't know whether just as many were trying their best to NOT be welfare staters....and that's why they deserved a quicker response than they got.

Although I seldom disagree with you, I can only agree in part with this analysis. I do think that you, much like Geaux, are speculating as to how these people are able to survive. Despite the tendency to think otherwise, clearly not everyone that you see standing on a street corner is on welfare. Do you even know that most of them are? Isn't it possible that many have a part-time job or survive off the kindness of a friend or relative? Any assumption that you are paying them to stand on a street corner and drink a 40 is entirely unfair. Is it human nature for us to assume the worst? Is it natural for us to blame our own lack of success on having to shoulder the burden of others? Regardless, I would like to see links to substantiate your claims as to the prevalence of welfare in urban areas especially in the so-called "red states." What percentage of our tax dollars are redistributed as entitlements? Quite frankly, I am skeptical of there being mass local, state, and federal handouts in Louisiana. But, I can be easily convinced with some evidence to backup this claim.
I own a small business. It requires me to get dirty. Couple this with the fact that I am do not generally dress nicely and I have little doubt that some might speculate that I am a burden on the system. I assure you that I am not. We all know that looks can be deceiving, but you guys apparently use nothing more than that to make these kind of judgments.

[RW13]

I disagree that it is President Bush's fault. How can he be held accountable, it was obviously the mayor's fault (he is a socialist/communist), and even to some extent the governor's fault (she is also socialist/communist). Look, in Bush's 5 years office, he has yet to make a mistake (a major one, I'm sure some of you liberals could find some miniscule one), I think we should just support Bush, trust in his judgement and stop asking so many ridiculous questions, who are we to question the guy? It's not right if you ask me, and quite frankly a little unamerican. Support Bush and Support Jesus, God Bless the people who have to suffer b/c of the lazy, socialist/communist democrats....

[JaGuArApRiL]

[QUOTE=AuburnandGamecockGirl]April,
I do agree with you on just about everything you said. My thoughts are that the media is turning this into a frenzy about who to blame. I agree more should have been done...no matter who should have done it to begin with. I just think that our country needs to unite together and stop bashing each other in the process of helping these people (black, white, asian, purple, pink, kids, dogs, elderly, etc.).


Believe me auburn chickie...I totally agree with you on the media issue! Instead of being down their interrupting the efforts they should be helping get those people out!...as for the comments about welfare-state people..Many unfortunately arent educated enough to understand what a storm of that degree can literally do and many figure no one cares about them anyway...and we sord of proved it huh..by letting thousands of them die..and go oh tsk what a shame..all their fault..lets clean this mess up and call it day...How SAD is that...I dont care what type of people they were..THEY WERE PEOPLE! :( anyway imma get off my soap box..someone might need the wood...jag

[fernandomike]

I disagree that it is President Bush's fault. How can he be held accountable, it was obviously the mayor's fault (he is a socialist/communist), and even to some extent the governor's fault (she is also socialist/communist). Look, in Bush's 5 years office, he has yet to make a mistake (a major one, I'm sure some of you liberals could find some miniscule one), I think we should just support Bush, trust in his judgement and stop asking so many ridiculous questions, who are we to question the guy? It's not right if you ask me, and quite frankly a little unamerican. Support Bush and Support Jesus, God Bless the people who have to suffer b/c of the lazy, socialist/communist democrats....

Questioning the government is definitely not un-American. That is a lie perpetuated by whichever party is in power. It is actually a very important civic duty. We should be unwilling to have them lead us around mindlessly like sheep. Regardless of who has control, we should ask tough questions and demand competent government.

[RW13]

Well I just think you're wrong, Bush hasn't messed up yet, and guess what? He's not going to. Anyone who doesn't agree should be investigated by the FBI for ties to terrorism, if you don't agree then u are against america, plain and simple democrats are borderline terrorists...

[fernandomike]

Well I just think you're wrong, Bush hasn't messed up yet, and guess what? He's not going to. Anyone who doesn't agree should be investigated by the FBI for ties to terrorism, if you don't agree then u are against america, plain and simple democrats are borderline terrorists...

Dude, that is so ridiculous that it is not worth my time.

[RW13]

Typical "liberal" response, btw check your inbox mike....

[uscrebel]

Well I just think you're wrong, Bush hasn't messed up yet, and guess what? He's not going to. Anyone who doesn't agree should be investigated by the FBI for ties to terrorism, if you don't agree then u are against america, plain and simple democrats are borderline terrorists...

RW....

When does the Mother Ship Land? I'd like to be there for your welcome home.

[RW13]

The Mother Ship Landed in November 2000 and November 2004 when a overwhelming majority of Americans voted for Bush, sorry your liberal candidate didn't win...

[AuburnandGamecockGirl]

The Mother Ship Landed in November 2000 and November 2004 when a overwhelming majority of Americans voted for Bush, sorry your liberal candidate didn't win...

Ok, I am intervening here in this....I think that everyone who has posted on this thread has had some great comments. I don't think anyone is saying anything that is Un-American or Communistic. I also don't think that folks who are saying that Bush should have done more are necessarily Democrats. I think it is fine to disagree with or question a decision made by your leader, but I think that it should be done based on facts and in an appropriate respectable manner. Again...just my opinion...

[GeauxTo]

Here's a good read on the situation; a little long, but worth the effort...
An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

by Robert Tracinski
Sep 02, 2005

by Robert Tracinski

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.

Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists—myself included—did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over four days last week. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency—indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?


What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to speed away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Superdome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage one night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Technology, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_Homes).)

What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"—the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels—gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of those who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then told me that early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails—so they just let many of them loose. [Update: I have been searching for news reports on this last story, but I have not been able to confirm it. Instead, I have found numerous reports about the collapse of the corrupt and incompetent New Orleans Police Department; see here (http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Aug/20050831News017.asp) and here (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/national/nationalspecial/04police.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1125839324-Gx/WKaOOvv/dZllBg1criA).]

There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit—but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals—and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep—on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.

All of this is related, incidentally, to the incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. In a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters—not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency.

No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20050902.STORMPSYCHOLOGY02/TPStory), by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. And they don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

People living in piles of their own trash, while petulantly complaining that other people aren't doing enough to take care of them and then shooting at those who come to rescue them—this is not just a description of the chaos at the Superdome. It is a perfect summary of the 40-year history of the welfare state and its public housing projects.

The welfare state—and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages—is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

[fernandomike]

That is an interesting take. At least, you provided some evidence of how you arrived at your conclusion. This still seems much too speculative to me. I don't see how the supposed welfare mentality would make people want to stay in a place where the government itself tells them they can no longer guarantee their safety. This, in fact, seems the opposite of government reliance. These people are saying we don't give a crap that you won't take care of us, we are staying.
I am always suspicious of direct causal links such as this one. Does mental illness, infirmity, drug use, etc. play any kind of a role in the situation or can we just assume that the welfare state is the lone culprit? Was there a study done? Did anyone attempt to isolate the variables? These are all valid concerns in my eyes. Then, there is the issue of whether or not this is merely an attempt by the writer to use this disaster to further a particular political philosophy?

[GeauxTo]

That is an interesting take. At least, you provided some evidence of how you arrived at your conclusion. This still seems much too speculative to me. I don't see how the supposed welfare mentality would make people want to stay in a place where the government itself tells them they can no longer guarantee their safety. This, in fact, seems the opposite of government reliance. These people are saying we don't give a crap that you won't take care of us, we are staying.
I am always suspicious of direct causal links such as this one. Does mental illness, infirmity, drug use, etc. play any kind of a role in the situation or can we just assume that the welfare state is the lone culprit? Was there a study done? Did anyone attempt to isolate the variables? These are all valid concerns in my eyes. Then, there is the issue of whether or not this is merely an attempt by the writer to use this disaster to further a particular political philosophy?
I understand your concerns and your position. No quarrel.
I am concerned that TV coverage is giving people a totally wrong impression about the majority of the people from New Orleans. The majority of the 75-80 percent who got out are people you'd want to be your neighbors. Neighborhoods like Old Metairie, Kenner, Marrerro, Uptown, etc., were filled with people who are great law-abiding citizens who have contributed and do contribute enormously to the cultural fabric of America in art, music, literature, etc. That's the real New Orleans.

[WayzUp]

Well I just think you're wrong, Bush hasn't messed up yet, and guess what? He's not going to. Anyone who doesn't agree should be investigated by the FBI for ties to terrorism, if you don't agree then u are against america, plain and simple democrats are borderline terrorists...
R-dub man...you reeeaaalllly need to stop staying on those Yahoo! message boards so much. :rolleyes:

[RW13]

R-dub man...you reeeaaalllly need to stop staying on those Yahoo! message boards so much. :rolleyes:
which boards are those?

[uscrebel]

R-dub man...you reeeaaalllly need to stop staying on those Yahoo! message boards so much. :rolleyes:

Waysie...

Don't bother.

I think that one has to be an earthling to understand ironic inference.

[RW13]

Or a linguini-spined "tax and spend" liberal!!! Ha! Go Jesus, Go Bush!