Do Good People Who Are Non-Believers Go to Heaven?

[OmahaBound]

Hopefully this can remain a civilized discussion....

I've had this debate a few times with more conservative Christian friends of mine, and I wonder what the typical person on this site thinks.

If a person lives their life as a shining example of what a human being should be, but they don't believe Jesus was their lord and savior, would they still go to heaven? I've had several people tell me that they wouldn't, and I just can't accept that. If you treat everyone with respect, try to help those less fortunate than you as much as you can, and basically live your life exactly as jesus wants us to...then I couldn't possibly accept or believe in a god that would not accept that person into his kingdom because the individual didn't believe in god or jesus.

I'm not trying to be insensitive, but that just seems so petty to me if it were true, and I believe god is so much better than that. So basically, I'm saying that I personally believe that good works and living a good life are enough to get into heaven for the god that I believe in.

[Djshockley3]

I dont think so,I think if u dont believe in God,u are in trouble.

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

If a person lives their life as a shining example of what a human being should be, but they don't believe Jesus was their lord and savior, would they still go to heaven? I've had several people tell me that they wouldn't, and I just can't accept that. If you treat everyone with respect, try to help those less fortunate than you as much as you can, and basically live your life exactly as jesus wants us to...then I couldn't possibly accept or believe in a god that would not accept that person into his kingdom because the individual didn't believe in god or jesus.
My belief is no. I believe that no one is good enough to earn there way into heaven. We all fall short in the eyes of God (i.e., all are sinners, except Jesus). God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, as the perfect sacrifice. By accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and asking Him for forgiveness....that what provides me the way to eternal life (and heaven). John 3:16 sums it up for me (For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life).

Don't get me wrong, there are some great people out there who are not Christians. But my belief is that no one is "good" enough to earn their way into heaven.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 worth.........

[OmahaBound]

My belief is no. I believe that no one is good enough to earn there way into heaven. We all fall short in the eyes of God (i.e., all are sinners, except Jesus). God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, as the perfect sacrifice. By accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and asking Him for forgiveness....that what provides me the way to eternal life (and heaven).

Don't get me wrong, there are some great people out there who are not Christians. But my belief is that no one is "good" enough to earn their way into heaven.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 worth.........

you certainly are entitled to those two cents. i just wonder what you think happens to the 'great people' that don't go to heaven? do they go to hell?

[rebeldude]

I think the answer to this is John 3:16, Believes is the key word in this passage.

That's my take on it, no that's Gods take on it.

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

you certainly are entitled to those two cents. i just wonder what you think happens to the 'great people' that don't go to heaven? do they go to hell?
Sorry, but I would have to say yes. :(

[OmahaBound]

Sorry, but I would have to say yes. :(

wow, that's rough. you're certainly entitled to your opinion though. i guess our gods are just very different, hehe.

my tone is supposed to be inquisitive here...not accusatory...

how do you reconcile that? how do you reconcile the fact that you're going to be in heaven with people that aren't as nice or good as people that are in hell? there's nothing fair about that.

and what about people that have never been taught about jesus? is it just their tough luck and they go to hell too?

[rebeldude]

Sorry, but I would have to say yes. :(

I hate to say it, but I Agree with you GF. It is not good deeds that allow you to have eternal salvation. It is a relationship with Jesus Christ.

[OmahaBound]

I think the answer to this is John 3:16, Believes is the key word in this passage.

That's my take on it, no that's Gods take on it.

you're going to have to post that for me rebeldude....i don't have a bible in my apt. and i don't trust internet sources on these matters....thanks.

[rebeldude]

you're going to have to post that for me rebeldude....i don't have a bible in my apt. and i don't trust internet sources on these matters....thanks.

Very wise of you, Ok here ya go
John 3 :16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Bible.com is a good source of Christian information.

[jneesy]

nope , if you dont believe you burn.....period

[OmahaBound]

Very wise of you, Ok here ya go
John 3 :16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Bible.com is a good source of Christian information.

that is certainly a fine passage, but it doesn't specifically negate my feelings on the matter. the passage says that all who believe in jesus will have eternal life, but it doesn't specifically say those that don't will burn in hell either. maybe god just holds non-believers to somewhat a higher standard....i could accept that.

my guess is you could probably find a passage that does say non-believers will burn, but since i don't really consider the bible an unquestioned book it wouldn't really change my thoughts anyway, hehe.

thanks for the link, by the way.

[OmahaBound]

nope , if you dont believe you burn.....period

the poll question is too vague the way i phrased it.....do you believe if you don't believe jesus was the messiah that you burn, or simply if you don't believe in god?

the question i'm really trying to ask is based on whether you believe jesus was the messiah or not. considering the oh so sensitive way you phrased your response, i'm guessing you think only christians go to heaven. ;)

[OmahaBound]

who responded with option #4 in the poll? i'm curious what type of afterlife you envision. you could PM me if you want to remain private, or you could just keep it to yourself if you'd rather, hehe.

[GamecocksRule]

the poll question is too vague the way i phrased it.....do you believe if you don't believe jesus was the messiah that you burn, or simply if you don't believe in god?
I do believe in God..I believe that Jesus was a remarkable human being whom we should strive to live our lives after..but what I don't agree with is that he is a 'savior' of the human race and forgiver of our sins. I guess that I would be viewed by most Christians to be someone that will "burn in hell for all eternity". Nevertheless, I will continue to love my fellow man, no matter what race, religion, etc., and try to always be some sort of shining light in this world while I'm here.

[JBryant12]

i think they would still go to heaven....

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

how do you reconcile that? how do you reconcile the fact that you're going to be in heaven with people that aren't as nice or good as people that are in hell? there's nothing fair about that.
The fairness is that God provides us all the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. That's why Christians are charged to spread the news of Jesus Christ. Let me give you an example (that may be hard for you to accept). Jeffrey Dahmer supposedly accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior and asked God for forgiveness when he was in prison and before he was put to death. According to my belief (if he did that), he obtained eternal life. Now, I'm not going to judge whether Dahmer was sincere or not (that is God's job). The web site below tells this story in more detail if you want to read it.
http://www.bible.ca/s-Dahmer.htm

[uscrebel]

Omaha,

I am always quite amused by what happens when Christians are asked to explain their dogma. Barth suggested that dogmatics sort of erupt in communities and evolve to accommodate the polarities within the communities. He actually used the term "church," but clearly defined churches as worship communities.

Among Christians, the term "Heaven" is widely used without any sort of reference. Some Christians see it as a big city with fluffy clouds all around, while others understand it as a state of being. When I was younger, I assumed that everyone who used the term Heaven meant exactly what I meant when I used it. I have grown to accept that this is not the case. As a result, I tend to talk about what happens after this life as just that..."what happens after this life." It really matters very little where one sits on the scale of things...believer, non-believer, semi-believer...there is always an edge to the type of question that you asked that comes to rest on the question of the purpose of this life.

I tend to believe that we are born without purpose or meaning and that the course of life, if run well, gives our lives both purpose and meaning. I find it difficult not to at least conjecture that there is something that happens after this life and few groups of people have ever built meaningful cultures without a sort of afterlife or heaven or paradise that hovers beyond the land of the living.

I, like Mark Twain, am somewhat suspicious of Heaven and when I see the people who are lined up to go there, I am not completely sure that it is where I would like to be...for eternity.

[OmahaBound]

The fairness is that God provides us all the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. That's why Christians are charged to spread the news of Jesus Christ. Let me give you an example (that may be hard for you to accept). Jeffrey Dahmer supposedly accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior and asked God for forgiveness when he was in prison and before he was put to death. According to my belief (if he did that), he obtained eternal life. Now, I'm not going to judge whether Dahmer was sincere or not (that is God's job). The web site below tells this story in more detail if you want to read it.
http://www.bible.ca/s-Dahmer.htm

i can accept the jeffrey dahmer part....i just can't accept that someone who is righteous and has done good with his life would be punished for all eternity for not believing jesus was the messiah.

i suppose in a weird way i'd be ok with going to hell if the rules were that strict....pretty much all my great friends and people i love would be with me there and i'd be all alone if i went to heaven. i don't think befriending a repentant jeffrey dahmer would make up for eternally losing all my friends, hehe.

if god can forgive murdering dozens of people and eating them, i think he would also forgive ignorance. if you went to the gates of heaven after death, and god said do you believe in me now...here's my son...here's how it went...and the individual still didn't believe him...then i suppose in that situation i could see how god would not allow them into heaven. but even in that circumstance i think it would be purgatory and not hell.

[OmahaBound]

when I see the people who are lined up to go there, I am not completely sure that it is where I would like to be...for eternity.

no offense to anyone on this site, but in general i couldn't agree more with that statement, hehe.

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

no offense to anyone on this site, but in general i couldn't agree more with that statement, hehe.
Omaha, no offense taken from me. In your initial post, you asked for views (and that hopefully people would keep it civil). You got mine, and I'm firm on my belief. To me, the way to eternal life is pretty clear (and simple). I know others have different belief systems (and I plan on following this thread to see what they are). But, I have no intention on bickering or arguing against other's beliefs. :)

[OmahaBound]

To me, the way to eternal life is pretty clear (and simple).

that's really what makes the topic so interesting to me....so many people say that, yet their beliefs on that path are completely different from one another.

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

that's really what makes the topic so interesting to me....so many people say that, yet their beliefs on that path are completely different from one another.
I'm not saying that people don't have vastly different opinions on how to obtain eternal life, just that based on my opinion and belief it's pretty clear (and simple).

[OmahaBound]

I'm not saying that people don't have vastly different opinions on how to obtain eternal life, just that based on my opinion and belief it's pretty clear (and simple).

yeah i understood that...my post wasn't meant to be disagreeing with you.

[cocky4ever]

To me heaven and hell make NO sense. I didnt choose to believe that way. I was raised in a christian household, both my parents are still married, worked good jobs, etc. I went to church as a child and did all the things that come with being raised in a christian family. I started questioning heaven and hell at an early age, around age 8 I would say. It wasnt because of being taught different philosophies,being tainted by an immoral society, or any of the other reasons christians may try to give for someone losing faith in their saviour.

I remember around age 8 having a dream in which I was surrounded by light and feeling a peacefulness. I thought" This must be Heaven." After a while I realized that nothing was changing. I was stuck in this one state of conciousness forever. After becoming more and more scared I finally woke up. I was so scared of the thought of being in one state of conciousness, whether it be heaven and hell, forever that I couldnt get back to sleep for hours. I also remember playing in the woods as a child and getting deja vu sometimes like I had experienced this Earth before but not in this life.

I didnt choose to believe those things. I dont believe that there is a Heaven or that I should worship a man who lived on this Earth as a God. I believe he was a great person but there are a lot of great people in the world. I cant just make myself believe otherwise. The Bible tells us that salvation is open to everyone, all they have to do is believe. In my opinion that is a contradictory statement. You cant just make yourself believe so salvation isnt open to everyone.

I dont see why God would create hundreds of billions of galaxies with hundreds of billions of stars and then put life on one planet out of countless planets to see how many people he can get to believe what he wants them to believe. The more and more you think about it the more and more it seems like the God in the Bible is setting us up for failure. I dont think there is anything a person can do in one lifetime to deserve to go to hell. I also dont think there is anything a person can do in one life to deserve to go to heaven. I believe in reincarnation. There are so many experiences to enjoy,learn from, use to strengthen our understandings of God,etc. that there is no way to experience them all in one lifetime. Would God give us one chance to get it right and then either cast us into eternal damnation or eternal salvation, or would God place us in the life that will be our next step in coming closer to understanding Him? Maybe its neither. Either way the heaven and hell thing makes no sense to me.

[SeattleGamecocks]

As a self professed heathen raised in a Christian family, I live my life to the best of my ability and definitely agree w/ modeling one's life after Christ's. After all "Jesus was way cool" I do kind of have a hard time w/ the get out of jail free theory that would allow Dahmer to be in heaven while Ghandi is condemned to hell. The God of the new testament is one of compassion. In my opinion, if there is a heaven, then a compassionate God would value people whose lives resembled Jesus's more than people who give face time @ church but don't love the least of his brothers. "Whatever you do for the least of my brothers and sisters, you do for me” Sorry I don't know the actual passage but its one of the things that stuck out most when I realized the terrible hipocrisy practiced by the Christians in my segregated community. My interpretation of that is that if you give nothing to the poor, then you give nothing to Jesus. Basically I think practicing Jesus's teachings is more important than worshipping him while ignoring his teachings. Maybe the stuff about getting to heaven "through him" means through living like he did? After all, we have nothing but translations of the bible which even if you believe to be the word of God, had to be transcribed by imperfect humans w/ our simple minds... My thoughts FWIW.

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

I provided my belief in Post #3 (that I believe the way to eternal life is accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior). And I stated that according to my belief, it's as simple as that. However, based on some of the posts in this thread, I feel the need to clarify/expand on my belief. If I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, then it would follow that I would try to mold my life after Him (after all, if He is my Lord and Savior, I should try to please Him - and what better way to please Him than to try my best to live like Him and for Him). Not saying I will always be successful at achieving that goal (as sometimes I fail miserably), but it's something that according to my Christian belief, I should strive for.

[rebeldude]

Jesus answered this question. Can't I go to heaven on the basis of being a good person? Jesus says no! " I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6)
A few other passages that say Jesus is the only way to Heaven:

(Acts 4:12) "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."

(Ephesians 2:8-9) "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast"

There are many more passages such as this in the Bible. Many people ignore the first and most important commandment, to love God with all your heart. If we choose to ignore God and not love Him, we are rejecting Him. Many Churches do good things, and many people do good works in their Church and their community, However, without a personal relationship with Christ, these works are "dead works," often done to glorify ourselves and gain esteem within the Church.

(John 6:28-29) They said therefore to Him, " What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

[BeeDee]

You cant just make yourself believe ...
That is the major problem that I have. As much as I'd like to believe firmly, one way or the other, I cannot force myself to do it. The only way that I will ever be able to have any firm stance is with proof.

[rebeldude]

That is the major problem that I have. As much as I'd like to believe firmly, one way or the other, I cannot force myself to do it. The only way that I will ever be able to have any firm stance is with proof.

BeeDee, there is plenty of proof, but you have to look for it.God gives us free will to make choices. It's up to you to make the right choice. Seek and you will find. God reveals himself when we seek him and turn away from sin.
I challenge you to seek.

[BeeDee]

BeeDee, there is plenty of proof, but you have to look for it.God gives us free will to make choices. It's up to you to make the right choice. Seek and you will find. God reveals himself when we seek him and turn away from sin.
I challenge you to seek.
If there's plenty of proof, then show it to me. All I have seen is conjecture. I cannot simply make the choice to believe, it doesn't work that way. It's not for lack of trying. Believe me, I'd love to have the conviction, it just isn't there. It'd be a big relief to me to be convinced one way or the other.

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

If there's plenty of proof, then show it to me. All I have seen is conjecture. I cannot simply make the choice to believe, it doesn't work that way. It's not for lack of trying. Believe me, I'd love to have the conviction, it just isn't there. It'd be a big relief to me to be convinced one way or the other.
For those of you who are firm in your beliefs, stop reading now.........

BeeDee, I'm not going to type in a bunch of stuff here, and I'm not going to try to pressure you in believing something that you can't bring yourself to believe. However, the web site below makes some good points regarding whether God exists or not (and any proof that is out there). It's one of the better one's that I've found on this subject. Note on the bottom that it was written by a former atheist. Take it for what it's worth.
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

[BeeDee]

For those of you who are firm in your beliefs, stop reading now.........

BeeDee, I'm not going to type in a bunch of stuff here, and I'm not going to try to pressure you in believing something that you can't bring yourself to believe. However, the web site below makes some good points regarding whether God exists or not (and any proof that is out there). It's one of the better one's that I've found on this subject. Note on the bottom that it was written by a former atheist. Take it for what it's worth.
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.htmlAn interesting, well thought out and well written article for sure. It has one major flaw though - the author assumes that the reader is an atheist, or one who subscribes to the theory of evolution/big bang in order to explain creation. That's not me. I don't deny that there's a God, or that he created the earth, I'm just not convinced that is the case. It seems that people always want to pigeon hole non-believers into the "Darwinist" category. I'm not a believer in Darwinism. I'm just as skeptical about evolution as I am divine creation. All of that stuff in the article was neat to read about, but what if there's some explanation for it all that we haven't even thought of? Maybe there's no God AND we didn't evolve from slime either. What if there's some totally unfathomable explanation for all of it... I see how people might find comfort in believing, but I am incapable of believing anything just because someone tells me so. I need proof. My mother told me that the stove was hot when I was a kid. I didn't believe her, so I touched it. I got proof. I now believe that the stove is hot... I've heard Christians claim that they "feel" the presence of God. I don't. I haven't. If God is so all knowing and all controlling and wants so badly for man to believe in him, then why doesn't he just show himself in a way that would convince me? Afterall, he knows EVERYTHING, so he should know exactly what it would take to convince me.

[rebeldude]

An interesting, well thought out and well written article for sure. It has one major flaw though - the author assumes that the reader is an atheist, or one who subscribes to the theory of evolution/big bang in order to explain creation. That's not me. I don't deny that there's a God, or that he created the earth, I'm just not convinced that is the case. It seems that people always want to pigeon hole non-believers into the "Darwinist" category. I'm not a believer in Darwinism. I'm just as skeptical about evolution as I am divine creation. All of that stuff in the article was neat to read about, but what if there's some explanation for it all that we haven't even thought of? Maybe there's no God AND we didn't evolve from slime either. What if there's some totally unfathomable explanation for all of it... I see how people might find comfort in believing, but I am incapable of believing anything just because someone tells me so. I need proof. My mother told me that the stove was hot when I was a kid. I didn't believe her, so I touched it. I got proof. I now believe that the stove is hot... I've heard Christians claim that they "feel" the presence of God. I don't. I haven't. If God is so all knowing and all controlling and wants so badly for man to believe in him, then why doesn't he just show himself in a way that would convince me? Afterall, he knows EVERYTHING, so he should know exactly what it would take to convince me.

You admit That you are incapable of believing, you need proof. God knows this, he knows your doubt, but he still wants you. He's waiting on you BeeDee. He's waiting for you to accept him, and once you do your life will never be the same. Knock on the door and He will answer. I can't give you any other proof, other than my personal testimony. I have used this many times ,and can tell you that you have never seen the wind, but you know it's there. What you see are the effects of the wind.

[BeeDee]

You admit That you are incapable of believing, you need proof. God knows this, he knows your doubt, but he still wants you. He's waiting on you BeeDee. He's waiting for you to accept him, and once you do your life will never be the same. Knock on the door and He will answer. I can't give you any other proof, other than my personal testimony. I have used this many times ,and can tell you that you have never seen the wind, but you know it's there. What you see are the effects of the wind.
I'm not incapable of believing. I'm incapable of believing without proof. There's a big difference. See my last post. I now believe that the stove is hot. How can I be sincere and accept something that I don't believe in? How can I knock on a door that I can't see?

[BeeDee]

Would you believe me if I told you that Bigfoot exists and that I had lunch with Elvis last Tuesday? Of course you wouldn't. You believe what you believe, because that's what you were taught to believe. Some people accept the word of others at face value. Your parents/grandparents/pastor/teachers taught you that there was a God and that Jesus is your saviour, and you accepted that because that's what they told you. I can understand that, but I can't relate to being that accepting without proof. I believe in questioning everything. EVERYTHING. I don't just want to hear it from someone else, I want to see it for myself - or at least hear it directly from someone who's seen it first hand. The problem is that you've never seen God first hand, you learned from your parents (or whoever) about God and Jesus and salvation, and you accepted that. They learned from their parents who learned from their parents... on down the line. It's kinda like that old schoolyard game where everyone sits in a circle and the first person whispers something to the next, who whispers it to the next and on down the line. By the time it gets around the circle, it's usually nothing like it was when it started. I cannot, will not, simply accept that God exists just because you, or my parents who I love, trust and respect, or my pastor who (even though he's a Mississippi State grad) I trust thoroughly say so. If God really wants me to believe, he'll make me believe. I don't see why he wouldn't, afterall, it's what HE wants, right?

[rebeldude]

Would you believe me if I told you that Bigfoot exists and that I had lunch with Elvis last Tuesday? Of course you wouldn't. You believe what you believe, because that's what you were taught to believe. Some people accept the word of others at face value. Your parents/grandparents/pastor/teachers taught you that there was a God and that Jesus is your saviour, and you accepted that because that's what they told you. I can understand that, but I can't relate to being that accepting without proof. I believe in questioning everything. EVERYTHING. I don't just want to hear it from someone else, I want to see it for myself - or at least hear it directly from someone who's seen it first hand. The problem is that you've never seen God first hand, you learned from your parents (or whoever) about God and Jesus and salvation, and you accepted that. They learned from their parents who learned from their parents... on down the line. It's kinda like that old schoolyard game where everyone sits in a circle and the first person whispers something to the next, who whispers it to the next and on down the line. By the time it gets around the circle, it's usually nothing like it was when it started. I cannot, will not, simply accept that God exists just because you, or my parents who I love, trust and respect, or my pastor who (even though he's a Mississippi State grad) I trust thoroughly say so. If God really wants me to believe, he'll make me believe. I don't see why he wouldn't, afterall, it's what HE wants, right?


Did I mention my personal testimony. I will tell you this much, I was brought up in a non-christian home. Never heard of Jesus until I was about 10. My belief stems from my study and research and the Grace and love that comes from God, that he promises. If you refuse to believe, that is a choice that God gives you. See God gave you something. He gave you a choice. :) I don't think God is going to come to someone and slap em in the face and say Hey look I'm God you better believe. I also don't believe a potential employer would come to your house knock on your door, jerk you off of the couch and say lets go to work. You Have to put forth a little effort BeeDee. I hope you don't spend the rest of your life waiting to put forth that effort. Try it you might like it. You want to see it first hand? Just remember The Wind, The Wind.

[OmahaBound]

I will tell you this much, I was brought up in a non-christian home. Never heard of Jesus until I was about 10.

i asked gamecock_fan the same thing earlier and it's even more apt in your situation....again, i'm being inquisitive and not argumentative...

how do you reconcile the fact that, based on your belief system, your own parents/caregivers are going to hell? (assuming they didn't convert later on)

[BeeDee]

Did I mention my personal testimony. I will tell you this much, I was brought up in a non-christian home. Never heard of Jesus until I was about 10. My belief stems from my study and research and the Grace and love that comes from God, that he promises. If you refuse to believe, that is a choice that God gives you. See God gave you something. He gave you a choice. :) I don't think God is going to come to someone and slap em in the face and say Hey look I'm God you better believe. I also don't believe a potential employer would come to your house knock on your door, jerk you off of the couch and say lets go to work. You Have to put forth a little effort BeeDee. I hope you don't spend the rest of your life waiting to put forth that effort. Try it you might like it. You want to see it first hand? Just remember The Wind, The Wind.You're not listening to what I'm saying. I was raised in a Christian home, and I have tried. You keep referring to the wind, but the wind WILL slap me in the face and tell me it's there. I can feel it. I can see its results first hand. I cannot say as much for God. I can go through the motions of praying, but deep down, I feel like I'm just talking to myself. What good does that do?

[BeeDee]

Did I mention my personal testimony. I will tell you this much, I was brought up in a non-christian home. Never heard of Jesus until I was about 10. My belief stems from my study and research and the Grace and love that comes from God, that he promises. If you refuse to believe, that is a choice that God gives you. See God gave you something. He gave you a choice. :) I don't think God is going to come to someone and slap em in the face and say Hey look I'm God you better believe. I also don't believe a potential employer would come to your house knock on your door, jerk you off of the couch and say lets go to work. You Have to put forth a little effort BeeDee. I hope you don't spend the rest of your life waiting to put forth that effort. Try it you might like it. You want to see it first hand? Just remember The Wind, The Wind.
What you're presenting to me is a catch 22. You're basically saying that I have to believe in God in order to receive proof. That doesn't make sense, because if I believed, I wouldn't NEED proof. I need the proof in order to believe.

[Neo]

What you're presenting to me is a catch 22. You're basically saying that I have to believe in God in order to receive proof. That doesn't make sense, because if I believed, I wouldn't NEED proof. I need the proof in order to believe.



Even though I do have my faith, I can understand what you're talking about. :cool:

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

i asked gamecock_fan the same thing earlier and it's even more apt in your situation....again, i'm being inquisitive and not argumentative...

how do you reconcile the fact that, based on your belief system, your own parents/caregivers are going to hell? (assuming they didn't convert later on)
I know that your question is more in response to rebeldude's quote, but you mentioned you asked me the same thing earlier (I must have missed it and I apologize for that). And hopefully, rebeldude will respond as well. I was raised in a Christian home with loving, caring parents (and they are still that way). So I was lucky in that respect. And to be honest with you, most of my family and my close friends are Christians and maintain the same beliefs that I do (or at least their beliefs are very close). And no, I don't establish my friendships based on people's religious beliefs - it's just that I am very active in my church and many of my friendships have resulted from those connections. However, there are a few people that I am friends with that are not Christians. All I can do as a Christian is pray for them, and hope that they one day accept Christ as their Savior. And although I don't flaunt my beliefs to them in everything we do, they know I am a Christian (based on what I've told them, and hopefully from most of my actions - although, as I said before, I many times fail with regard to that).

[rebeldude]

i asked gamecock_fan the same thing earlier and it's even more apt in your situation....again, i'm being inquisitive and not argumentative...

how do you reconcile the fact that, based on your belief system, your own parents/caregivers are going to hell? (assuming they didn't convert later on)

I understand your curiosity about my parents and my beliefs and I don't mind talking about either. I will tell you this much, My parents were good people and had a somewhat belief of God, but were not Christians because they did not have a personal relationship with Christ. Both of my parents lives ended tragically without natural causes or disease, I do not know what happened moments before death, but if they died as they were living (without Christ) I don't believe they Made it to heaven,( but that is Gods call not mine). That is difficult to say, but the Bible tells us that being a Christian is not easy, and that is the truth.I hope I'm wrong and one day we'll meet again. As a Christian I believe (no matter who you are) without Christ you will not enter heaven. that is the word of God.

[rebeldude]

You're not listening to what I'm saying. I was raised in a Christian home, and I have tried. You keep referring to the wind, but the wind WILL slap me in the face and tell me it's there. I can feel it. I can see its results first hand. I cannot say as much for God. I can go through the motions of praying, but deep down, I feel like I'm just talking to myself. What good does that do?
Your right I'm not listening, I'm reading J/k. I will guarantee you that when you accept the living God as you saviour, he'll do the same as the wind, slap you in the face. Don't go throught the motions of prayer, pray from your heart. God will listen. Don't give up.

[BeeDee]

Your right I'm not listening, I'm reading J/k. I will guarantee you that when you accept the living God as you saviour, he'll do the same as the wind, slap you in the face. Don't go throught the motions of prayer, pray from your heart. God will listen. Don't give up.
There you go again with that catch 22. It's like the old commercial about the guy trying to get a job. "You need a job to get experience, but you need experience to get a job." I cannot pray from my heart to a God that I don't know exists. It's just not possible to sincerely think that I'm talking to something that I'm not convinced is there. It'd be like talking to the bathroom door when you think that someone might be there... but then again, maybe they're not...

[OmahaBound]

I understand your curiosity about my parents and my beliefs and I don't mind talking about either. I will tell you this much, My parents were good people and had a somewhat belief of God, but were not Christians because they did not have a personal relationship with Christ. Both of my parents lives ended tragically without natural causes or disease, I do not know what happened moments before death, but if they died as they were living (without Christ) I don't believe they Made it to heaven,( but that is Gods call not mine). That is difficult to say, but the Bible tells us that being a Christian is not easy, and that is the truth.I hope I'm wrong and one day we'll meet again. As a Christian I believe (no matter who you are) without Christ you will not enter heaven. that is the word of God.

i know that was incredibly personal, so thank you for sharing.

[rebeldude]

There you go again with that catch 22. It's like the old commercial about the guy trying to get a job. "You need a job to get experience, but you need experience to get a job." I cannot pray from my heart to a God that I don't know exists. It's just not possible to sincerely think that I'm talking to something that I'm not convinced is there. It'd be like talking to the bathroom door when you think that someone might be there... but then again, maybe they're not...

It is apparent that your mind is set and or closed to the existence of the living God, therefore there is nothing more that I can say. Good luck

[BeeDee]

It is apparent that your mind is set and or closed to the existence of the living God, therefore there is nothing more that I can say. Good luck
Would you step off your roof without first making sure that there was a ladder there?

[GeauxTo]

I think the answer to this is John 3:16, Believes is the key word in this passage.

That's my take on it, no that's Gods take on it.
I absolutely agree. We are saved by Grace through belief in Jesus Christ. Works are nice, but they won't buy you eternal life.
:)

[GamecocksRule]

I absolutely agree. We are saved by Grace through belief in Jesus Christ. Works are nice, but they won't buy you eternal life.
:)
Holy crap (no pun intended) wasn't this thread from like 8 months ago :rolleyes: :eek: (we are bored, very bored) BTW, you can't "buy" life..think about it...

[CockyTatGuy]

If God is so all knowing and all controlling and wants so badly for man to believe in him, then why doesn't he just show himself in a way that would convince me? Afterall, he knows EVERYTHING, so he should know exactly what it would take to convince me.

Sorry in advance for the long paraphrase coming up, kinda hard to put that story in a few sentences.

I can understand where you are coming from on this one, even most Christians at times start doubting. Your statement made me think of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus though. The jist of the story is that a rich man who had everything died at the same time a beggar/lepper died. The begger (Lazarus) was a believer and entered into heaven, the rich man was a non-believer and entered into hell. The rich man saw Lazarus and Abraham over in heaven and called out to Abraham. First he asked that Lazarus would bring him a drop of water, when Lazarus couldn't do that he asked that Lazarus be raised up from the dead and sent to his 5 brothers figuring that if his brother saw a man who was dead and now alive that they would believe and not come to hell with him. Abraham told the rich man that his brothers had Moses and the other prophets on earth and that if he wouldn't hear them then not even a person that has been raised from the dead would convince them.
Here is a link to the parable cuz mine is a little long (http://www.bible-history.com/Chart_Jesus_Chronology/CHART_JESUS_CHRONOLOGYLk_161931.htm)

[JerryBeeds]

The streets will flow with the blood of the non-believers.

[GamecocksRule]

The streets will flow with the blood of the non-believers.
LOL! :D KILL the non-believers!

[JerryBeeds]

And life will continue on ;)

If you are a believer of course.

[GamecocksRule]

If you are a believer of course.
SHHHHHHH! (they weren't supposed to know..) :p

[crimsonnation713]

I believe totally that only the believers go to Heaven but right now there are people posing as believers ( Pat Robertson for one) that are very VERY misguided in their preaching and are leading or either turning people away..

[GamecockinIL]

If there's plenty of proof, then show it to me. All I have seen is conjecture. I cannot simply make the choice to believe, it doesn't work that way. It's not for lack of trying. Believe me, I'd love to have the conviction, it just isn't there. It'd be a big relief to me to be convinced one way or the other.

If God really wants me to believe, he'll make me believe. I don't see why he wouldn't, afterall, it's what HE wants, right?

While there is plenty of historical data, archaelogical digs, and personal experience to abound, there is still one element of this discussion that defies logic. And that is the question of faith. God NEVER asks any of us to exercise a blind faith (a faith based upon NO evidence) but there is an expectation that ultimately each of us will have to make a choice to believe in something we cannot see.

So what is faith? Is it stupidity? Is it ignorance? Is it a willingness of simple minded people to follow the suggestions of skilled speakers? Is it a desparate attempt to give hope where there is no hope?

The Bible answers several questions regarding the element of faith in what is considered by many to be the most profound chapter in the Bible on faith...Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:1-2

What is faith? It is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see. God gave his approval to people in days of old because of their faith.

In other words, we cannot see it, smell it, taste it, or touch it, but we believe it. And it is that trust that God has been looking for from us since day 1. Just in case this idea of faith doesn't make sense to you, let me put in practical business terms. There is a business phrase that has long been used to explain the difference between people who get things done and those who don't. It goes like this..."Some people say, 'I'll believe it when I see it.' But others say, 'I'll see it because I believe it.' Do you get it? Entreprenuers, capitalists, movers and shakers, and world-changers exercise a Hebrews 11-like faith in the regular world. They don't look at what is, and think that's all it can be. They see what isn't and believe it can be. That's faith. That's what God is looking for.

In fact, the Bible states plainly, that it is THE critical element necessary to finish the recipe...Hebrews 11:6 - So, you see, it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that there is a God and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.
The chapter then goes on to describe some of the ways in which people have exhibited faith.

Hebrews 11:7-10 - It was by faith that Noah built an ark to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about something that had never happened before. By his faith he condemned the rest of the world and was made right in God's sight. It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith--for he was like a foreigner, living in a tent. And so did Isaac and Jacob, to whom God gave the same promise. Abraham did this because he was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.

In every stage of human existence, God has always provided plenty of both direct and "circumstantial" evidence to prove that He is...that He exists. But the final piece to the puzzle will always involve a step into the unknown. If we are to trust God, then there must be elements involved that we can't quite comprehend. If I could completely understand God, then THAT is a God I would not want. Why would I need a God that I am the equal of?

Yes, there is some mystery, and I am glad.

However, once that step of faith has been taken, then we have no choice but to take Jesus at His word. He either IS who He said He was, or He was a lunatic. If He was a lunatic, then you can simply dismiss anything He said. On the other hand, if He is who He said He was, then there is one way, and one way only, into heaven, (which simply means an eternity in the presence of God...because wherever God is, that is heaven). Jesus said that there were no other options. It's an either or, an all or nothing. You either accept it or reject it. You either believe Him or you don't. Is it divisive? Yes! But Jesus said that it would be.

Will good people go to heaven that don't believe in God? It depends on whether you believe Jesus is who He claimed to be. In your answer to who is Jesus, you will find your answer to the first question.

[GeorgiaPride]

but I am incapable of believing anything just because someone tells me so. I need proof. My mother told me that the stove was hot when I was a kid. I didn't believe her, so I touched it. I got proof. I now believe that the stove is hot... I've heard Christians claim that they "feel" the presence of God. I don't. I haven't. If God is so all knowing and all controlling and wants so badly for man to believe in him, then why doesn't he just show himself in a way that would convince me? Afterall, he knows EVERYTHING, so he should know exactly what it would take to convince me.


This is a perfect paragraph on how I feel about God.
i

[GeorgiaPride]

There you go again with that catch 22. It's like the old commercial about the guy trying to get a job. "You need a job to get experience, but you need experience to get a job." I cannot pray from my heart to a God that I don't know exists. It's just not possible to sincerely think that I'm talking to something that I'm not convinced is there. It'd be like talking to the bathroom door when you think that someone might be there... but then again, maybe they're not...


Wow -- another

[cocky4ever]

Looks like this thread has been born-again:D

Well, since it came back up I'll guess I'll throw two more cents in. I'm pretty much a Unitarian Universalist in that I respect everyones views. I personally dont think its possible to comprehend God in a human body so whatever you believe to make you sleep better at night I dont have a problem with as long as you arent hurting others. Like I said before, for the most part Christianity makes no sense to me. Heres one reason heaven and hell make no sense to me:

According to the Bible this life is just a stepping stone to heaven or hell, right? The only purpose of this life it to live it and then be judged at the end. If thats the case then why do kids and peope who have never heard of Jesus get a free trip to heaven? I think I live a pretty decent life. I dont steal,kill,hurt others, Im faithful to my wife, etc. I try to make the Earth a better place for myself and others and try to help animals. However, I dont believe that there is a heaven or that I should worship someone who walked on Earth as a God. That means there could be someone in a third world country who's never heard of Jesus killing people, robbing,raping, beating kids and animals and women,etc. who is going to heaven while I go to hell. That thought makes no sense to me.

[ColonelKurtz]

A better title for this subject would be "Do Christians believe good non-believers go to Heaven?" or "Can heathens be considered for Heavenly ascention?".

As usual, uscrebel stated pretty much what my feeling is on this topic as we tend to share similar viewpoints on the subject of today's faiths.

What does trip my trigger over this topic and subsequent discussion is the arrogant assumption of people who hold faith that one must also hold it to be a good person. And that leads me to ask those same folks the question: "What about all the many who lived BEFORE whichever faith you wish to cite?" If not for the rock solid evidence that Man is inherently able to know right from wrong and recognize what the concept of good is, none of us today would be able to even broach this topic.

This oldy but goody embodies what I'm talking about:

An old Eskimo guy returns from a hunting trip and encounters the village Priest at the local hangout. He tells the Padre that during the many hours of downtime he pondered the many things offered in the sermons he heard along with what he read in the Bible. The Eskimo guy then asks "If I had never heard or learned of Jesus, would I be condemmed to Hell?" The Padre replied "No, for you would not know of Hell otherwise", to which the Eskimo replied "then why in the Hell did you tell me!!!"

[Wincrimson]

First of all, I don't think that believing in God gets you a pass through the pearly gates. I also don't think that you are guaranteed at Heaven once you have been baptized. I think you have to live a life that Christ would be proud of and try to be as compassionate and understanding as he was-- live in his image in other words.

With that said, yes, I do belive that non-believers can go to Heaven without accepting Christ as their savior. Why? Because I think that most of our ultimate determination depends on the life we live instead of the God(s) we worship. I think that say, an atheist, lives a life that would please God, gives to charity, helps out those in need, is kind to others, can go to be with him in Heaven. I think it depends on the impact that we as humans make on the Earth in our time here.

I hope I'm not being blasphemous here, I'm just adding my take on the matter.

[rabidcock]

I do believe in God..I believe that Jesus was a remarkable human being whom we should strive to live our lives after..but what I don't agree with is that he is a 'savior' of the human race and forgiver of our sins. I guess that I would be viewed by most Christians to be someone that will "burn in hell for all eternity". Nevertheless, I will continue to love my fellow man, no matter what race, religion, etc., and try to always be some sort of shining light in this world while I'm here.

Then you and I can hang out together. Otherwise, how are we going to get along with all those ruffians down there?

[rebeldude]

LOL! :D KILL the non-believers!

Oh no, Muslim
:eek: :D :rolleyes: :p :) ;) :o :cool: :p

Wow that response brought out all kinds of emotions. whew

[sportsgirl]

I've been sick for the past several days and missed out on this discussion. For those of you who are tired of the discussion, my apologies. I wanted to add that I feel Jesus is a gentleman. He doesn't force himself on anyone. He wants your faith and your love, but he's not going to force you to do it, because what kind of love would that be? True love is when given a choice, you still choose Christ. Also, there is a verse in the Bible that states that even our faith in Christ comes from him. He gives us faith to believe and can increase faith. It's late tonight and I'm too tired to look it up. I'll get back later with the verse reference. For those of you who maybe do not believe but wish that you could, just humor me and try this. Pray a prayer something like this, "Jesus, I don't know if you exist. I'm the kind of person that needs something to be tangible before I can believe, but if you are real then I want to know, and I want to believe. If you are my creator, you made me so you know what I need in my life right now to begin receiving faith. If you are in fact hearing this prayer, then I sincerely open myself to experiencing you. I invite you into my life. Show yourself to me." Try praying something like this, even if you feel like you're just talking to yourself. Pray this often and just watch what happens. I can offer a challenge like this because I have prayed many prayers just like it many many times and God has answered each time.

[ColonelKurtz]

When the Word Nazi(s) take it upon themselves to totally ruin a post's communication with its reader such as in the example above, it's time to call them on it.

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of **** than yourselves." (Matthew 23:13-15 KJV)

[ColonelKurtz]

Woe upon the filter, for it not knoweth anything at all but what its creator doth tell it to do.......

[GamecocksRule]

Oh no, Muslim
:eek: :D :rolleyes: :p :) ;) :o :cool: :p

Wow that response brought out all kinds of emotions. whew
Too bad you didn't catch the 'sarcasm'..it's alright, I didn't think YOU would anyway. :cool:

[MediaSportsBoy]

I'm not sure if yall still read this thread or not, but the simple fact is if anyone could earn their way into heaven, then jesus would not have had to die. and by the way, theres only one GOD in heaven.

[geechee]

I'm not sure if yall still read this thread or not, but the simple fact is if anyone could earn their way into heaven, then jesus would not have had to die. and by the way, theres only one GOD in heaven.

Are you saying that there is more than one on Earth?

[DELTOR]

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. - John 14:6

[bamaboy]

I think God may be laughing at all of this. I just hope he takes its easy on Auburn fans. Just kidding. God bless you all!

[cocky4ever]

I'm not sure if yall still read this thread or not, but the simple fact is if anyone could earn their way into heaven, then jesus would not have had to die.

And if this life really is just a test to see who gets into heaven then the people who never hear of Jesus would not need to be born because they get a free ticket anyway...

[Foxman]

Ok, my 2 cents.

Has anyone has seen the Southpark where everyone dies and goes to hell? Everyone is wondering why they didn't go to heaven, and Satan says "Uhh, Sorry, the correct religion was Mormon." It was sarcastic, if anyone didn't catch it. And I agree with it totally.

See, I find it hard to think that people as good as Ghandi won't go to heaven (or whatever afterlife there is) just because they choose or was born into the "wrong" religion.

Sometimes I think all religions are connected somehow. Maybe it really doesn't matter which one you "choose". Maybe it doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus or Muhammad, if you have one God or many, or if you call them Gods or Spirits or whatever else. Maybe they're all just minor differences in the big picture. I dunno, maybe I'm being too optomistic, but it seems to me that all religions share one message: Do whats right, put faith in your religion, and live life the way it should. I think thats all we can really do.

[GatorHunter]

Ok, my 2 cents.

Has anyone has seen the Southpark where everyone dies and goes to hell? Everyone is wondering why they didn't go to heaven, and Satan says "Uhh, Sorry, the correct religion was Mormon." It was sarcastic, if anyone didn't catch it. And I agree with it totally.

See, I find it hard to think that people as good as Ghandi won't go to heaven (or whatever afterlife there is) just because they choose or was born into the "wrong" religion.

Sometimes I think all religions are connected somehow. Maybe it really doesn't matter which one you "choose". Maybe it doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus or Muhammad, if you have one God or many, or if you call them Gods or Spirits or whatever else. Maybe they're all just minor differences in the big picture. I dunno, maybe I'm being too optomistic, but it seems to me that all religions share one message: Do whats right, put faith in your religion, and live life the way it should. I think thats all we can really do.

Great post...I too find it hard to believe that a true "believer" in any religion will be "left out"...that said, I don't think anyone has all the answers...as a Christian, I can tell you that I feel Christ in my life....I know that when I pray, I am being heard....I've felt the presence, the love that goes along with accepting Jesus Christ as my savior...most people, in my experience anyway, that feel a need to "question" Christianity or religion as a whole, have an empty hole in their hearts and are lookin' for a way to fill it...Christ will do that...it is truly amazing to have this "Love"...I often wonder how a person can live without it.

[azamugg]

Hopefully this can remain a civilized discussion....

I've had this debate a few times with more conservative Christian friends of mine, and I wonder what the typical person on this site thinks.

If a person lives their life as a shining example of what a human being should be, but they don't believe Jesus was their lord and savior, would they still go to heaven? I've had several people tell me that they wouldn't, and I just can't accept that. If you treat everyone with respect, try to help those less fortunate than you as much as you can, and basically live your life exactly as jesus wants us to...then I couldn't possibly accept or believe in a god that would not accept that person into his kingdom because the individual didn't believe in god or jesus.

I'm not trying to be insensitive, but that just seems so petty to me if it were true, and I believe god is so much better than that. So basically, I'm saying that I personally believe that good works and living a good life are enough to get into heaven for the god that I believe in.


first off Im agnostic........If heaven exists, its not a place where God and Jesus happen to be running the place for others that own it, its THEIRS and they have set the rules so your answer is no......so many of my believing friends think they can make their own rules and say they believe and go to heaven...........there is a verse in the bible that says acts are more important than faith and another verse that says God will spew the lukewarm from his mouth..does that bible tell you a little in those two verses? You bet

you see, there is no asterick at the end of the bible that says "some of what we tell you to do and how to be might not be convienent for you and your life so you can disregard those portions and selectively choose what is convienent to your life"

[woo_pig_sooie]

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. - John 14:6

I've been thinking about these words for awhile now and I would like some of your guys' opinion.

Does it mean that you have to believe that Jesus is our savior to get into heaven, or does it just mean that Jesus will be our judge in the end? What I'm trying to say is it possible for someone like Ghandi, who wasn't a Christian, to get into heaven if Jesus determines that he lived his life well? It kinda depends on how you look at the words, could go either way I think.

[Tator]

Good post azamugg, and I'll agree that its an all or nothing situation. There are no plea bargins, no loop holes, or amendments that allow for anything other than complete faith in, and obedience of, God's Word as it is written. Nothing else will do.


I think the problem is that mankind tends to want to superimpose our weaknesses and tendencies upon God when we say that "He couldn't possibly do that!" or "That just seems wrong to me". It's human nature to do so because it makes us feel better to give something that is so beyond us, a trait or pattern we can understand. And that is where most go wrong, we simply cannot fathom God's mind or intentions outside of what He has made known.

[DELTOR]

Good post azamugg, and I'll agree that its an all or nothing situation. There are no plea bargins, no loop holes, or amendments that allow for anything other than complete faith in, and obedience of, God's Word as it is written. Nothing else will do.


I think the problem is that mankind tends to want to superimpose our weaknesses and tendencies upon God when we say that "He couldn't possibly do that!" or "That just seems wrong to me". It's human nature to do so because it makes us feel better to give something that is so beyond us, a trait or pattern we can understand. And that is where most go wrong, we simply cannot fathom God's mind or intentions outside of what He has made known.
I was trying to think up something to say along those lines, Tator, but you did an excellent job of summing it all up. Good post.

[SECjunkie]

As the official representative of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I would like to remind you all that Heaven is waaaaay overrated. Join my church and you'll have an eternal bowl of pasta!
And meatballs.

http://www.venganza.org/

[VOLjlt]

As the official representative of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I would like to remind you all that Heaven is waaaaay overrated. Join my church and you'll have an eternal bowl of pasta!
And meatballs.

http://www.venganza.org/

Ok, that is just plain weird...

[SECjunkie]

Ok, that is just plain weird...
You do realize that it is satire, right? The link is rather amusing, IMHO.

[GamecockDieHard]

first off Im agnostic........If heaven exists, its not a place where God and Jesus happen to be running the place for others that own it, its THEIRS and they have set the rules so your answer is no......so many of my believing friends think they can make their own rules and say they believe and go to heaven...........there is a verse in the bible that says acts are more important than faith and another verse that says God will spew the lukewarm from his mouth..does that bible tell you a little in those two verses? You bet

you see, there is no asterick at the end of the bible that says "some of what we tell you to do and how to be might not be convienent for you and your life so you can disregard those portions and selectively choose what is convienent to your life"


I'm not familiar with that verse in the Bible? I know of the one that says all you need is faith the size of a mustard seed, indicating to me that even the righteous will have doubts. There was doubting Thomas that, if around today, would have started a thread just like this one, IMO. I believe the Church of God (which I'm not a member) believes that once you die you are given the Truth and a final chance at redemption, they also believe that hell isn't an eternal flame of torture and pain but a quick and eternal destruction of body and soul. I was raised and accepted the belief that Jesus is the Messiah, that there is no other God, that He created everything, that He gave mankind freewill and by doing so He allowed evil to exist because the absence of good IS evil, and that He provided a way for believers to escape what He knew would be ever-growing evil, through the sacrafice of His son, Jesus. The answers to all our questions are in the Bible. It's not necessary to understand who begat who as much is it is to continue to study and pray for understanding.

Do you think the PAC10 site has a thread like this? God Bless the SEC!!!

[SHOCKTOP]

Jesus explained all this in the 6th Chapter of John. Start about verse 30 or
so and read the rest of the chapter. Also notice that a lot of people quit
following Him after they heard this.

[Bburton86]

Disclaimer: Have not read more than a couple of posts in this thread.

who responded with option #4 in the poll? i'm curious what type of afterlife you envision. you could PM me if you want to remain private, or you could just keep it to yourself if you'd rather, hehe.

I grew up in the church.........don't go more than once or twice a year now but still hold on to the same foundation of what those years taught me. I didn't pick number four but in middle school when we studied Greek mythology I always enjoyed their afterlife, lets see if I can remember it correctly, I think that there were four levels in the Greek afterlife.
1. The best people were admitted into the paradise.
2. All the normal people were admitted into a sort of desert place where it was neither bad nor good BUT they had the choice to go back and do it all over again and try and get into the paradise.
3. And lastly their hell for all the bad people.
I don't know I just found it sort of interesting as a 14 year old.

And as for the original question what if their family was not religious, that is no fault of that person who was born into a non-believing family.

My personal opinion is that you have to be really bad to go to hell. Instead of earning your way into heaven I think it is more earning your way into hell, you've gotta be really bad. IMO

[azamugg]

Disclaimer: Have not read more than a couple of posts in this thread.



I grew up in the church.........don't go more than once or twice a year now but still hold on to the same foundation of what those years taught me. I didn't pick number four but in middle school when we studied Greek mythology I always enjoyed their afterlife, lets see if I can remember it correctly, I think that there were four levels in the Greek afterlife.
1. The best people were admitted into the paradise.
2. All the normal people were admitted into a sort of desert place where it was neither bad nor good BUT they had the choice to go back and do it all over again and try and get into the paradise.
3. And lastly their hell for all the bad people.
I don't know I just found it sort of interesting as a 14 year old.

And as for the original question what if their family was not religious, that is no fault of that person who was born into a non-believing family.

My personal opinion is that you have to be really bad to go to hell. Instead of earning your way into heaven I think it is more earning your way into hell, you've gotta be really bad. IMO

you are entitled to those thoughts but they damn sure aint Christian thoughts, the bible is the source of what to do in order to go to "its" heaven

[dawgstud]

Unless you've been dead you really don't know the answer to this question. All you know is what you believe. I'm not ready to find out the answer to this question yet. :)

Seems illogical that someone could be born in an African tribe and do all good things in honor of their Lord (whom they called by another name), never heard the name Jesus in their lives, and were sent to hell when they died. I'm guessing God is logical but only one way to find out for sure.

[EricTheRed]

I hope so...

[Georgiaguy31015]

Not according to the Bible. You can be as good as you want to be but if you don't ask Jesus into your heart and if you don't believe you aren't going to make it.

[EricTheRed]

Not according to the Bible. You can be as good as you want to be but if you don't ask Jesus into your heart and if you don't believe you aren't going to make it.

Damn...that kinda sucks...

[Georgiaguy31015]

Damn...that kinda sucks...


Maybe but that's the way it goes in my opinion.

[dawgstud]

Not according to the Bible. You can be as good as you want to be but if you don't ask Jesus into your heart and if you don't believe you aren't going to make it.

It's funny. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about "accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" yet you hear those EXACT WORDS from Christians all over. If these are people whose only source of authority is the Bible, shouldn't they quote the scripture and not make up things like this?

[GATA_Rob01]

Heaven doesn't exist.

[dawgstud]

Heaven doesn't exist.

Until you die you can't know for sure, pal. :angry:

[Georgiaguy31015]

It's funny. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about "accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" yet you hear those EXACT WORDS from Christians all over. If these are people whose only source of authority is the Bible, shouldn't they quote the scripture and not make up things like this?


I didn't know it wasn't in the Bible, very interesting and I wasn't making it up, I was going along with the Christian belief and all Chirstians that I'm aware of believe this.

[dawgstud]

I didn't know it wasn't in the Bible, very interesting and I wasn't making it up, I was going along with the Christian belief and all Chirstians that I'm aware of believe this.

You have a choice. Follow the teachings of man or follow the teachings of God. Based on what you just said what who do you believe you chose to follow?

[SECjunkie]

You have a choice. Follow the teachings of man or follow the teachings of God. Based on what you just said what who do you believe you chose to follow?
I've warned you all. When death comes, you will be shocked to learn of the divine omnipotence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. May FSG rest your soul...in a bed of penne pasta with garden vegetable marinara!

[cocky4ever]

I've warned you all. When death comes, you will be shocked to learn of the divine omnipotence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. May FSG rest your soul...in a bed of penne pasta with garden vegetable marinara!
No worries here, Im a devout pastafarian. And every morning when I wake up I ask myself "What would Flying Spaghetti Monster Do?"


http://www.wrrx.com/images/cocky4ever/thwwfsmd2_1.jpg

[Jrama]

I dont think so,I think if u dont believe in God,u are in trouble.


Me too no matter what religion you are. Because EVERYONE has a chance to get to know Jesus Christ

[EricTheRed]

Me too no matter what religion you are. Because EVERYONE has a chance to get to know Jesus Christ

What about little pygmy children that live in Africa way outside any towns or anything like that. Ones that are never even introduced to religion period. Do they burn in hell for all eternity?

[dawgstud]

What about little pygmy children that live in Africa way outside any towns or anything like that. Ones that are never even introduced to religion period. Do they burn in hell for all eternity?

According to Southern Baptists the answer is yes. Good think God isn't a Southern Baptist. :p