U.S. Muslims desecrate American flag

[Neo]

A group of American Muslims produced a video that shows its members on a New York City street corner declaring Islam's dominance over America as they tread on a U.S. flag and then rip it apart.

In the video, released by the New York-based Islamic Thinkers Society, one of the Muslims is shown placing a sign on the flag that says, "Oh Muslims! Do you know your enemy? Isn't it obvious?"

The group, tied to the British jihadist organization Al-Muhajiroun, said the demonstration was "in response to the desecration of the holy Quran by the Crusaders & Zionists at Guantanamo Bay," an allegation based on a retracted Newsweek story.

The five-minute piece begins with a man speaking in clear English: "Just to show where our loyalty belongs to – you see this flag here? It's going to go on the floor [sic]. And to us, our loyalty does not belong to this flag, our loyalty belongs to Allah ... ."

The speaker then shifts to Arabic and members can be heard shouting the familiar "Allahu Akbar," or "Allah is greatest."

Later, after noting he has a legal permit for the demonstration, the speaker shouts, "You Muslims who are hiding in your houses, don't be afraid. Come and join us. Join us in the revival of all Islam. ... Join us to revive the Muslims from darkness into light."

Another speaker refers to the mandate for "Islam to dominate over all other religions, to dominate the world, even though the non-Muslims may hate it."

On its website, the Islamic Thinker's Society explains:


"This video is of our first demonstration out of a series of city-wide demonstration that was planned in response to the desecration of the holy Quran by the Crusaders & Zionists at Guantanamo Bay. In this video, we were exposing the truth to the public about the real story behind the desecration of the Qur'an. Also, this was done to rise the Muslim Communities up and unite under one cause. That is to expose the agenda of the Crusaders & Zionists and their war on Islam which many still do not see today.
Author and researcher Robert Spencer, who posted a link to the video on his weblog Jihad Watch, commented that Muslim lobby groups such as the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations have helped foster an environment that discourages criticism of such actions.

"... [I]f we even ask how many Muslims in America think this way, CAIR will bellow about discrimination and Islamophobia," Spencer writes. "So attention is diverted from activities such as what is shown in this video, and they can continue unheeded."

The Islamic Thinkers Society is an off-shoot of Al-Muhajiroun, a British jihadist group that publicly raised funds for Hamas and has been suspected of facilitating transportation of British Muslims to fight U.S. troops overseas.

Al-Muhajiroun spiritual leader Sheik Omar Bakri Muhammad has called on the British Muslim community to join Hamas.

Under pressure from UK authorities, Al-Muhajiroun claimed it disbanded in October, but security sources say leaders still are active in London and the U.S.

As WorldNetDaily reported, Al-Muhajiroun openly maintains a branch in Queens that claims to be involved in "only peaceful activities." The group holds closed-door meetings and study sessions at a mosque in Jackson Heights, Queens, led by an older cleric identified as Sheikh Choudray.

The Queens branch youth leader, Abu Yousuf, a U.S. citizen who says he attended a "camp" in Sudan and takes computer courses at the City University of New York, speaks at university events throughout New York City usually sponsored by the Muslim Student Association.

At one Al-Muhajiroun event at Queensborough Community College sponsored by the MSA and attended by WND, a Muhajiroun speaker working with Yousuf said, "We reject the U.N., reject America, reject all law and order. Don't lobby Congress or protest because we don't recognize Congress! The only relationship you should have with America is to topple it!"

The speaker continued, "The so-called terrorists are the only people who truly fear Allah. ... They are the only worthy causes, and the mighty superpower only fears them."

In a private interview with WND, a Queens based Al-Muhajiroun leader said he would be "absolutely honored" to give up his life in a "martyr operation" against American civilians. The leader warned that "a jihad is coming to America because of the moves of the Bush administration."

Last year, Al-Muhajiroun planned a convention in London titled, "The Choice is in Your Hands: Either You're with the Muslims or with the Infidels," to mark the third anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

In 2003, the group had planned a similar anniversary event called "The Magnificent 19 [Suicide Attackers]," but canceled it at the last minute.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44664

[Neo]

Ahhhh....

The sweet smell of a peaceful religion and to top it off, these people actually wonder why some Americans hate them. :cool: These are not people driven by religious devotion. They are people driven by some overriding desire to overthrow existing society in the west and replace it with one in which they dominate and redistribute wealth.


http://img33.imagevenue.com/loc253/th_1e2_Urinating.jpeg (http://img33.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc253&image=1e2_Urinating.jpeg)


Indian Muslims ask a boy to urinate on a U.S. flag during a protest against the alleged desecration of the Koran during a demonstration in Calcutta May 20, 2005.
http://madmikey.mu.nu/

[scunyon]

If they hate the flag and the country it represents so much, then they should be rounded up, bound and gagged, then air-dropped with no parachute over Iraq.

I don't see any of those so-called extremist breaking their necks to get to the border and leave..........

Heathens........all this bullpie in the name of religion......Hell is gonna be bursting at the seams :rolleyes:

[jneesy]

Islamic Thinkers Society

now theres an oxymoron

[GatorNation]

If they hate the flag and the country it represents so much, then they should be rounded up, bound and gagged, then air-dropped with no parachute over Iraq.

I don't see any of those so-called extremist breaking their necks to get to the border and leave..........

Heathens........all this bullpie in the name of religion......Hell is gonna be bursting at the seams :rolleyes:

Amen. :mad:

And these are the people the Constitution should not protect. They should be designated as enemy combatants, arrested, and used for medical research....

....ebola sounds good.

[GeauxTo]

Amen. :mad:

And these are the people the Constitution should not protect. They should be designated as enemy combatants, arrested, and used for medical research....

....ebola sounds good.
Every muslim that isn't a citizen should be deported immediately. All of the "student" muslims here on visas should have their visas revoked and they should be sent home. And every mosque and muslim "citizen" community in America should be carefully scrutinized. To hell with these uncivilized bastards. Remember, these sons-of-bitches want to kill you and your way of life.
:mad:

[rebeldude]

Every muslim that isn't a citizen should be deported immediately. All of the "student" muslims here on visas should have their visas revoked and they should be sent home. And every mosque and muslim "citizen" community in America should be carefully scrutinized. To hell with these uncivilized bastards. Remember, these sons-of-bitches want to kill you and your way of life.
:mad:

Kill you and your way of life, Dang Geaux take it easy, Your thinking on this issue is probably the same way the confederate soldiers felt about Lincoln and the union army.

[GatorNation]

Every muslim that isn't a citizen should be deported immediately. All of the "student" muslims here on visas should have their visas revoked and they should be sent home. And every mosque and muslim "citizen" community in America should be carefully scrutinized. To hell with these uncivilized bastards. Remember, these sons-of-bitches want to kill you and your way of life.
:mad:

Exactly. Enough playing around. If honest Muslims don't want to feel the backlash, then they should make an effort and take a stand....help the cause and be part of the solution. Stop kneeling down in your mosques 5 times a day, stop sending money to countries and leaders that may or may not be supporting terrorism, pull your heads out of your a$$es, and take a proactive stance against Islamic extremism...any kind of extremism, anywhere in the world. The fact that there weren't any Muslims--either prominent or inconsequential--who stood up and told these guys on the video to f-off speaks volumes.

Those that turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to these terrorists--and particularly these "American" Muslims on this video--are just as guilty in my book. It's not enough to simply rehash the PC crap about 911 and car bombings in Iraq. Muslims have to step up and play the premium role in stopping this religious-inspired madness.

You wanna be American and enjoy the freedoms and liberties that affords, then help the cause. If not, go back to Iraq. We don't need you.

[GeauxTo]

Exactly. Enough playing around. If honest Muslims don't want to feel the backlash, then they should make an effort and take a stand....help the cause and be part of the solution. Stop kneeling down in your mosques 5 times a day, stop sending money to countries and leaders that may or may not be supporting terrorism, pull your heads out of your a$$es, and take a proactive stance against Islamic extremism...any kind of extremism, anywhere in the world. The fact that there weren't any Muslims--either prominent or inconsequential--who stood up and told these guys on the video to f-off speaks volumes.

Those that turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to these terrorists--and particularly these "Ameircan" Muslims on this video--are just as guilty in my book. It's not enough to simply rehash the PC crap about 911 and car bombings in Iraq. Muslims have to step up and play the premium role in stopping this religious-inspired madness.

You wanna be American and enjoy the freedoms and liberties that affords, then help the cause. If not, go back to Iraq. We don't need you.
Totally agree! Very well said.

[OmahaBound]

i've said it before and i'll say it again....

KKK is to Christian as muslim jihadist is to Muslim

the group that sponsored the rally above is an off-shoot of a jihadist organization....they are not typical muslims...the more you lump them all together as one, the worse this situation is going to become instead of improving.

[GeauxTo]

i've said it before and i'll say it again....

KKK is to Christian as muslim jihadist is to Muslim

the group that sponsored the rally above is an off-shoot of a jihadist organization....they are not typical muslims...the more you lump them all together as one, the worse this situation is going to become instead of improving.
I disagree.
Where are the "good" muslims? Why aren't they denouncing vigorously?
In my opinion, there are no muslims with whom we are not in fundamental disagreement. There are no muslims whom Americans can trust to work to keep our nation safe, secure, and terroist-free. Unless they can unabashedly support America as our forefathers envisioned it and created it, they should leave; or, we should revoke their citizenship and deport them.
:mad:

[OmahaBound]

well i'll be sure to let the muslims i know that even though they are respected physicians and accountants, they need to leave the country now.

[GeauxTo]

well i'll be sure to let the muslims i know that even though they are respected physicians and accountants, they need to leave the country now.
First, get into a serious discussion with them to see what they think and what they believe. You might be shocked, if you get a truthful response. Unless they can unabashedly support America, yes, by all means, tell them to haul their a$$es back to the sh*tty societies Islam creates.

[OmahaBound]

do you want them to unabashedly support EVERYTHING america does? because if that's your criteria than 99.99% of the american population needs to leave the country.....unless of course that criteria just applies to muslims. basically everyone disagrees with several aspects of U.S. policy on different matters. everyone on this site seems to either disagree with the way the war in iraq has been handled or the way the U.S. handles immigration.

if you simply want them to stipulate that they don't want to destroy the country then yes, they don't want to destroy the country hehe. for the love of god please try and keep some form of open mind. everyone on this earth is an individual, and they deserve to be judged on their individual actions. if someone is a terrorist or supporter of one then they absolutely deserve to be deported....but to assume they're all terrorists or evil is not just ignorant, but also very scary and un-american.

[GatorNation]

well i'll be sure to let the muslims i know that even though they are respected physicians and accountants, they need to leave the country now.

do you want them to unabashedly support EVERYTHING america does? because if that's your criteria than 99.99% of the american population needs to leave the country.....unless of course that criteria just applies to muslims. basically everyone disagrees with several aspects of U.S. policy on different matters. everyone on this site seems to either disagree with the way the war in iraq has been handled or the way the U.S. handles immigration.

if you simply want them to stipulate that they don't want to destroy the country then yes, they don't want to destroy the country hehe. for the love of god please try and keep some form of open mind. everyone on this earth is an individual, and they deserve to be judged on their individual actions. if someone is a terrorist or supporter of one then they absolutely deserve to be deported....but to assume they're all terrorists or evil is not just ignorant, but also very scary and un-american.

If "good," anti-extremist Muslims don't take an active, vocal stand, especially with the protections, freedoms, and liberties they enjoy in this country, then, yes.....send 'em back. And tell 'em the gatorhead will be more than happy to buy some plane tickets.....coach and no meal, btw. On second thought, forget coach.....put 'em in the baggage compartment.

Doing nothing is basically equivalent to helping the enemy. It's THAT serious. It is a passive form of consent. And if you're a Muslim who is not outspoken against terrorism, then you're probably sympathetic to the jihad cause in some way. Maybe such a Muslim wishes there wasn't violence in Palestine or Iraq, in an ideal world, but dadgummit those f-ing Israelites.....blah, blah. Muslims need to stand up, unite, and completely reject this way of thinking. Period. No exceptions. That's it. Get it out of the schools. Close the mosques that even hint at the possibility of teaching extremism. Arrest those who do. Get rid of websites that even hint at supporting Islamic extremism. Keep your eyes and ears open to strange activity within the community and report it to the authorities. Ask questions. Support the Patriot Act. Get involved. Petition for the removal of al-jezzera on television. Denounce flag burnings and hate teachings. Support American culture as a positive, non-evil culture....even if you absolutely must have your wife to walk 10 feet behind you.

In short, stop being a bunch of ineffective, passive-aggressive f-ing a--holes.

Look, it wouldn't be enough to simply SAY you're not racist while passively watching some racial crime take place. Would it? In a similar manner, it's not enough to simply ignore terrorism, hope it goes away on its own, let the "Americans" handle it, avoid reality by escaping to your prayer mat, plan a trip to Mecca, change the channel, or claim that you only believe a limited portion of the dogma. You can't show up at the White House as a member of the Saudi Royal Family while nodding disinterestedly when Bush speaks about hunting down terrorism.

There must be a level of accountability.

There needs to be a unified voice from the worldwide Muslim/Islamic community against terrorism, Islamic jihad, all of the active (and inactive) terrorist groups....including those people who would support, fund, and harbor terrorists and terror activities.

If they don't, this will never go away.....at least not without wiping out the Middle East and starting over.

[cocky4ever]

do you want them to unabashedly support EVERYTHING america does? because if that's your criteria than 99.99% of the american population needs to leave the country.....unless of course that criteria just applies to muslims. basically everyone disagrees with several aspects of U.S. policy on different matters. everyone on this site seems to either disagree with the way the war in iraq has been handled or the way the U.S. handles immigration.

if you simply want them to stipulate that they don't want to destroy the country then yes, they don't want to destroy the country hehe. for the love of god please try and keep some form of open mind. everyone on this earth is an individual, and they deserve to be judged on their individual actions. if someone is a terrorist or supporter of one then they absolutely deserve to be deported....but to assume they're all terrorists or evil is not just ignorant, but also very scary and un-american.
Exactly. Couldnt say it better myself.

[OmahaBound]

i would agree with you, gatornation, if an individual knew terrorists or saw terrorism in action....but to mandate that all muslims officially come out against terrorism is pointless....those who are here to perform acts of terrorism would come out and say it themselves as cover....if i don't go out tomorrow on the corner of my street and scream 'I'M AGAINST RACISM' or 'I DID NOT SUPPORT TIMOTHY MCVEIGH' does that mean I support mcveigh or racism in any way? of course it doesn't. would anyone care that i was saying it? of course they wouldn't. it would only mean something if i was specifically and closely connected to the situation. most muslims in this country are not. you might believe they are, but none of the muslims i've met are in anyway connected to iraq, afghanistan, syria, saudia arabia, or al-quada. there are other muslim countries in the world that we don't currently have serious issues with remember?

you don't trust muslims...that much is clear, and that's your perogative. since that's the case, would you really feel any better at all if every muslim in the country lined up to say they're against terrorism? maybe in a weird way you would, but i'll bet you still wouldn't believe that all of them are not terrorists. so what's the point? it certainly wouldn't significantly affect recruiting of extremists since they already despise american muslims anyway. they're 'traitors to the cause' and not 'true-muslims' in the eyes of extremists.

[GatorNation]

i would agree with you, gatornation, if an individual knew terrorists or saw terrorism in action....but to mandate that all muslims officially come out against terrorism is pointless....those who are here to perform acts of terrorism would come out and say it themselves as cover....if i don't go out tomorrow on the corner of my street and scream 'I'M AGAINST RACISM' or 'I DID NOT SUPPORT TIMOTHY MCVEIGH' does that mean I support mcveigh or racism in any way? of course it doesn't. would anyone care that i was saying it? of course they wouldn't. it would only mean something if i was specifically and closely connected to the situation. most muslims in this country are not. you might believe they are, but none of the muslims i've met are in anyway connected to iraq, afghanistan, syria, saudia arabia, or al-quada. there are other muslim countries in the world that we don't currently have serious issues with remember?

you don't trust muslims...that much is clear, and that's your perogative. since that's the case, would you really feel any better at all if every muslim in the country lined up to say they're against terrorism? maybe in a weird way you would, but i'll bet you still wouldn't believe that all of them are not terrorists. so what's the point? it certainly wouldn't significantly affect recruiting of extremists since they already despise american muslims anyway. they're 'traitors to the cause' and not 'true-muslims' in the eyes of extremists.


Well, there's certainly a difference between saying something and doing something to back up what you're saying. And much of my post dealt with ACTIONS. It's not enough to simply say that you're against terrorism. You must support your claims with actions and activity. Voting. Editorials. Letters. Picket lines. Boycotting. So, the "mandate" becomes equivalent to the actions that support the American, anti-extremist cause......it's not rooted in the "confessing." If you give money to Mr. Duke, it's difficult to claim you're not a racist. And that's why we say "actions speak louder than words." Do you want to differentiate between Muslims who are (or may be) sympathetic to Islamic extremism (or are just plain cowards) from those who are serious about eliminating terrorism and the stigma surrounding Muslims in general? Answer: look at their actions, what they do. Muslims have plenty to do. I listed a number of those things in my earlier post....and none of them involves picking up a gun or risking a beheading. I'm grieved to admit we cannot even say that about our soldiers.

Also, most Muslims ARE connected to the situation...even if indirectly. Many American mosques partake in hate teachings, fund extremist newsletters and websites, and support Middle Eastern countries and groups whose role within terrorist activity is, at best, wholly unclear. Many people, I'm sure, worshipped with the Hayat family out in Cali. A number of money laudering locations and business fronts for money portals (in the US) to extremists abroad have since been closed. Accounts frozen. Nobody asked any questions. They're much more connected than you think. As far as other countries are concerned, I'm not sure there are many "Muslim" countries who really consider themselves our friends. Saudi Arabia is supposed to be our biggest Middle Eastern supporter, but very few Americans believe that is the case. SA's efforts against terrorism have been half-a$$ed at best.

And, yes, I don't trust Muslims who are passive and inactive. Those would be the first ones I'd question. If you were a terrorist, wouldn't that be the cover/methodology you'd use? I would. Keep quiet, live in your sh-- hole room somewhere in bumblef--- suburbia, USA where you can have your terrorist buddies come over for planning, strategy, and global communication, not to mention a private, constitutionally-protected place to cover yourselves with explosives in the hopes of being blown to high heaven where the fictional 72 virgins await your arrival. Widespead terrorism will end if we treat it like the WWII Holocaust, like slavery and racial segregation. Like these other travesties, it takes a unified, dedicated group effort, not a passing glance and a shake of the head. We'll never be able to get rid of it completely--just like we can't eliminate all spree killings--but we can transform it into an isolated, heavily criticized fringe of Muslim extremism that it will fail to hold the imminent and global danger, or ubiquitous interest, it currently enjoys.

BS

We're not talking about the retarted nature of Howard Dean or the possible justifications of Russell Crow's recent telephone meltdown....there is no "benefit of the doubt" when it comes to American soldier's (or American citizen's) lives. Everyone knows we're not playing with monopoly money here. This is as real and as dangerous as it gets. The future of the "American Dream" for our children hangs in the balance. And if the silent Muslim majority is not going to step up to the plate and follow through on their reasonable American service, then they should do their thing somewhere else. We owe them nothing, especially if they are going to demote their "American membership" with respect to their identification as members of Islam. But if they're going to stay while invoking American citizenship and the "rights" that go along with that, then they need to play their role in being a principal, active, and vocal part of the solution.

There's no other acceptable option.

[OmahaBound]

gatornation, if they're citizens of this country they have all the same rights that you do. and if they aren't connected to terrorism and haven't done anything wrong, they don't owe you anything. they pay their taxes and live their lives the same as you. if you want to kick them out of this country because they want to be left alone, not become political activists, and praise their god without directly harming you then i can only hope to god you are the minority in this country. if you're not then we're on the road to an amazing amount of unrest on our soil. luckily i know the supreme court would never allow what you hope for though.

i suppose we learned nothing from locking up the japanese during WWII.

[GatorNation]

gatornation, if they're citizens of this country they have all the same rights that you do. and if they aren't connected to terrorism and haven't done anything wrong, they don't owe you anything. they pay their taxes and live their lives the same as you. if you want to kick them out of this country because they want to be left alone, not become political activists, and praise their god without directly harming you then i can only hope to god you are the minority in this country. if you're not then we're on the road to an amazing amount of unrest on our soil. luckily i know the supreme court would never allow what you hope for though.

i suppose we learned nothing from locking up the japanese during WWII.


Nope. Each of us has an obligation to protect our country and work with our government, and society in general, to accomplish that task. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

People will continue to say what you're saying until one of their kids gets blown up by a suicide bomber in a pizza parlor in downtown Houston. Then watch how quickly their tone changes....give 'em your spiel then. That's not the America in which I want to live, Omaha. And I'm sorry you're willing to risk the very real possibility of such an atrocity by allowing people to pass the buck on public service rather than addressing the social, religious, political, and moral dynamic that surrounds us.

And, yeah, I imagine it's much easier let everyone stick their heads in the sand rather than be the proverbial bad guy, wake them up, get them out of their comfort zone, and hold people accountable for the greater good. But as is so often the case, what is easy to do isn't necessarily the right thing to do. I'm not legally required to help a homeless person buy some food, but it's the right thing to do. What is right and what is legal do not always coincide.

If you're going to let people walk away from their moral responsibilities, don't give them a ready-made excuse. Don't create a escape hatch for indifference by categorizing it as acceptable behavior, even if it's "constitutionally protected" behavior.

Those "innocent" Muslims who don't help should be ashamed.

[OmahaBound]

so if a bomb goes off in houston, i'm supposed to blame my friends in SC?

i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.....i think your ideas would be more likely to result in a pizza place blowing up in houston than it would be to prevent it, and you're right, that's not an America i want to live in.

[SeattleGamecocks]

I disagree.
Where are the "good" muslims?
I tutor several of them, so they're hanging out w/ good heathens and Christians. I've met some of their parents and never got the impression that they wanted to kill me. They're happy to have found refuge here. That being said, these extremist groups definitely should not be tolerated.

[GatorNation]

so if a bomb goes off in houston, i'm supposed to blame my friends in SC?

i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.....i think your ideas would be more likely to result in a pizza place blowing up in houston than it would be to prevent it, and you're right, that's not an America i want to live in.

Hardly. And you should blame, in part, those Muslims who didn't play their part in making America (and the world) safer from terrorism simply because it was easier to do nothing than it was to do something.

Standing united, together, against terrorism could never create a climate that would be "more likely" to result in a terrorist bombing. If you believe that, you've been watching too many Michael Moore movies. Indifference and ignorance were two of the major ingredients involved in 911. Sounds like you wouldn't be too concerned if history was doomed to repeat itself....

But you're right: let's agree to disagree.

[OmahaBound]

Hardly. And you should blame, in part, those Muslims who didn't play their part in making America (and the world) safer from terrorism simply because it was easier to do nothing than it was to do something.

Standing united, together, against terrorism could never create a climate that would be "more likely" to result in a terrorist bombing. If you believe that, you've been watching too many Michael Moore movies.

no but kicking hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims out of the country if they don't do what you want certainly could make terrorism even more likely in this country

[Neo]

no but kicking hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims out of the country if they don't do what you want certainly could make terrorism even more likely in this country



Granted, I'm a die-hard, card carrying Libertarian but if the shoe fits, wear it. Where there's smoke, there's probably fire.

These muslims that just sit here and don't condemn these bombings or just keep their mouths shut are just as guilty in my book.

Coming to this country is a privledge, not a right and the sooner these immigrants realize that the better off they will be. :cool:

[GatorNation]

no but kicking hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims out of the country if they don't do what you want certainly could make terrorism even more likely in this country

Well, that's the problem....we have different definitions of "innocent."

I hope you never need the services of someone who is not required by law to come to your aid.

Because if that person elects not to help you, I guess your staunchly-held opinion forfeits your right to complain about it.

You live in a sad world.

[GatorNation]

Granted, I'm a die-hard, card carrying Libertarian but if the shoe fits, wear it. Where there's smoke, there's probably fire.

These muslims that just sit here and don't condemn these bombings or just keep their mouths shut are just as guilty in my book.

Coming to this country is a privledge, not a right and the sooner these immigrants realize that the better off they will be. :cool:

Neo has it right....

[fernandomike]

Since Islam is a religion and not an appearance, how the heck do you kick Muslims out of the country? Do we kick out American born white Muslims? Black ones? Or just the ones who look like Middle Easterners? Do we kick people out for reading the Koran? Attending a mosque? Do we regress into some kind of a witch-hunt akin to McCarthyism? I am sorry, but this big brother scenario is an America that I don't want to see.
Instead, we should be hyper-vigilant. It is necessary to be cautious and aware, but we also should be sensitive and rational. Those who are peace-loving Muslims surely feel our glares. Who knows how many minds they are trying to change outside of our view? To lump them in with the Osamas of the world is entirely unfair and truly turns this into the "holy war" that the instigators so deperately crave.

[OmahaBound]

Well, that's the problem....we have different definitions of "innocent."

I hope you never need the services of someone who is not required by law to come to your aid.

Because if that person elects not to help you, I guess your staunchly-held opinion forfeits your right to complain about it.

You live in a sad world.

isn't it interesting that my sad world includes respect, trust, and good friends from all different backgrounds (yes, including several muslims) and your happy world includes shipping off hundreds of thousands who have done nothing (you can't deny that, because that's pretty much your complaint of the 'innocent' people i referred to) because they share the same name of a religion some nutjobs have distorted to make themselves more powerful.

the world can definitely be sad sometimes, but guess what....no one is required to help me if i find myself in need of help. it certainly seems to happen a lot though anyway.

[GamecocksRule]

Since Islam is a religion and not an appearance, how the heck do you kick Muslims out of the country? Do we kick out American born white Muslims? Black ones? Or just the ones who look like Middle Easterners? Do we kick people out for reading the Koran? Attending a mosque? Do we regress into some kind of a witch-hunt akin to McCarthyism? I am sorry, but this big brother scenario is an America that I don't want to see.
Instead, we should be hyper-vigilant. It is necessary to be cautious and aware, but we also should be sensitive and rational. Those who are peace-loving Muslims surely feel our glares. Who knows how many minds they are trying to change outside of our view? To lump them in with the Osamas of the world is entirely unfair and truly turns this into the "holy war" that the instigators so deperately crave.
You hit that nail on the head, HARD, fernandomike..great post.

[Neo]

isn't it interesting that my sad world includes respect, trust, and good friends from all different backgrounds (yes, including several muslims)


Appearances can be deceiving.

"Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy." Sun Tzu (The Art of War)

[OmahaBound]

Appearances can be deceiving.

"Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy." Sun Tzu (The Art of War)

sigh...at least that was so absurd it was amusing, hehe

oh well...like i said earlier...at least i know that no matter what people think and no matter who gets elected president, the supreme court would NEVER allow us to deport american citizens who have commited zero crimes simply for being muslim.

[Neo]

sigh...at least that was so absurd it was amusing, hehe



If it's so absurd, why didn't the 9/11 hijackers or advertise what they were doing? Why is it that the USDOJ says there are hundreds of *SECRET* cells of Al-Qaida in the US right now?

The mission for extremists is very covert. They do not and will not allow people to know their true intentions. Is it really that hard to believe that just one of your so-called friends could be hiding his TRUE feelings towards America and Americans?

These people are taught at a very young age to kill Americans and Israelis. There's simply no gray area to them. If you're not a muslim, convert them. If they will not convert, kill them.

I find it quite hard to respect a religion that tells you to murder an innocent person because of their beliefs. :cool:

[OmahaBound]

that's not what the koran teaches....that's what these mullah's teach and interpret from the koran....it's all false....muslim is supposed to be a peaceful religion, just like christianity and judaism are supposed to be but they've been horribly corrupted at times throughout the last two millenia.

it's not absurd to think there are some terrorists hiding in this country....but you don't know my friends....i assure you it's absurd to think they're terrorists, hehe.

[GeauxTo]

that's not what the koran teaches....that's what these mullah's teach and interpret from the koran....it's all false....muslim is supposed to be a peaceful religion, just like christianity and judaism are supposed to be but they've been horribly corrupted at times throughout the last two millenia.

it's not absurd to think there are some terrorists hiding in this country....but you don't know my friends....i assure you it's absurd to think they're terrorists, hehe.
You need, my friend, to take a more studious look at Islam and at the Qur'an. You are completely duped.

[cocky4ever]

that's not what the koran teaches....that's what these mullah's teach and interpret from the koran....it's all false....muslim is supposed to be a peaceful religion, just like christianity and judaism are supposed to be but they've been horribly corrupted at times throughout the last two millenia.

it's not absurd to think there are some terrorists hiding in this country....but you don't know my friends....i assure you it's absurd to think they're terrorists, hehe.
Exactly. The koran doesnt teach hate. Just because theres people who choose to teach it that way for their own purposes doesnt mean that most followers of the religion believe/feel that way. This whole grouping of people together as one big entity is the exact same thing that led to some Muslims hating us in the first place. Back during the civil rights movements you would hear people talk about the "white devils". Thats because they grouped all white people together. It didnt make sense for them to do that to us and it doesnt make sense for us to do that to them. The people who say that all Mulslims are a problem are using the exact same rationale as the muslims who are the problem. Its not the muslims that are the problem, its that way of thinking thats the problem. Like Martin Luther King Jr. said:

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

Obviously that way of thinking is alive and well on both sides of the fence, sadly :(

[cocky4ever]

You need, my friend, to take a more studious look at Islam and at the Qur'an. You are completely duped.
Have you been schooled in the religion of Islam and the Qur'an?? :confused: Just curious.

[OrangeCrush]

Since Islam is a religion and not an appearance, how the heck do you kick Muslims out of the country? Do we kick out American born white Muslims? Black ones? Or just the ones who look like Middle Easterners? Do we kick people out for reading the Koran? Attending a mosque? Do we regress into some kind of a witch-hunt akin to McCarthyism? I am sorry, but this big brother scenario is an America that I don't want to see.
Instead, we should be hyper-vigilant. It is necessary to be cautious and aware, but we also should be sensitive and rational. Those who are peace-loving Muslims surely feel our glares. Who knows how many minds they are trying to change outside of our view? To lump them in with the Osamas of the world is entirely unfair and truly turns this into the "holy war" that the instigators so deperately crave.

We have a winner.

[Neo]

I would really like to know if anyone here other than myself has actually read ANY of the Koran? :cool:

[uscrebel]

Every muslim that isn't a citizen should be deported immediately. All of the "student" muslims here on visas should have their visas revoked and they should be sent home. And every mosque and muslim "citizen" community in America should be carefully scrutinized. To hell with these uncivilized bastards. Remember, these sons-of-bitches want to kill you and your way of life.
:mad:

Sadly, Geaux Geaux, this would require sending away two of my very good friends and their children, one of whom has been my youngest son's best friend since they were in preschool together.

I have ridden a vanpool to the university for the past three years and one of our members is Muslim. He's a prince of a guy who is funny as hell and very bright. Although he has been in the US for twenty years, he is not a citizen...just like my Canadian friend who has been here for 24 years and remains a Canadian citizen.

Two years ago, my soccer team included two boys whose parents were from Iran and two from Saudi Arabia. Both the boys and the parents still call me coach when we meet in stores or around town.

There is a private Islamic school about a half-mile from my house. It is on the same block as the Roman Catholic church and it is not unusual on my way through the neighborhood to see Catholic kids, going to catechism, walking and laughing with Islamic kids as they head to school.

I'm not sure it would be possible for me to make it through the week without having to deal with somebody named Hassan or Alireza or Amir or Cyrus or Ebrahim. But, for that matter, I also have to deal with Hyung, Dae-Woo, Rudolfo, Miguel, Vladimir, and Serguei. Likewise, I sure like having the option to go out for falafel or coos-coos or kabobs or baba-ganough. (Or, manh-bi, pho, sushi, shabu-shabu, menudo...well, you get the picture.)

I have grown to realize that one of the "side effects" of my leaving the South is that I live in a very different place. There are only 10 or 15 African-American students in my son's high school...actually this is not true, because three of them are Rama Gobollah's kids...they are African...from the Ivory Coast. "Bollah" and I have reffed and coached soccer together for almost ten years and while he has been approved for citizenship this fall, he is still a window on the world for me and my family. Of the 1900 students at our high school, approximately 775 are non-Latino European, 600 are Asian, about 300 are Latino, and the remaining 220 list Native American, Mixed-Race, African-American, or "other."

I understand that this is where most folks begin to spew all the "crazy California" stuff and tell me that I can drop off into the Pacific Ocean and all that stuff. I have been out here for almost 25 years and I have gotten used to it. My point is that unless you live in the South or the Midwest, this cultural smogasboard is part of your daily life. Even in the South and Midwest this is changing...particularly in bigger cities like Chicago, Atlanta, St. Louis, etc.

I am sure that there are some very bad, very dangerous folks who are Muslims. Likewise, I am sure that there are some very bad, very dangerous Baptists. While I am sure that there is a Baptist Church in Irvine (Other than the Chinese Baptist Church), I am not sure where it is, but I do know where the local Mosque is...I pass it on my way to church on Sundays. Likewise, while I have lots of Baptist friends in Alabama and Mississippi, I am not sure that I even know anyone who is Baptist out here...lots of Methodists, Episcopalians, Buddhists, Catholics, Jews, and Muslims, but no Baptists that I am aware of.

California is not a better place than Louisiana or Mississippi...just a different place. It is pretty scarey sometimes...especially when the ground shakes like it did yesterday, but all things being equal, it seems like a good place for me at this time in my life. I only regret that you don't know Ali and Sassan, you'd really like them. Sassan's boy, Shahin (or Shawn as we call him) is one of the best friends that my son has ever had. He's a funny kid...I think you'd get a kick out of him.

[OmahaBound]

fantastic post, uscrebel. the line about the catholic kids and islamic kids walking together since their respective churches are on the same street is easily the happiest thing i've read today.

[OmahaBound]

I would really like to know if anyone here other than myself has actually read ANY of the Koran? :cool:

any of the koran? yes
a significant portion of the koran? no

[SeattleGamecocks]

fantastic post, uscrebel. the line about the catholic kids and islamic kids walking together since their respective churches are on the same street is easily the happiest thing i've read today.
I agree. It has a ring of MLK's dream coming to fruition. :)

[uscrebel]

I would really like to know if anyone here other than myself has actually read ANY of the Koran? :cool:

Neo,

Since you ask, one of my two undergraduate degrees is in philosophy and religions. I was a Rockefeller Fellow at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley from 1979-1980 where I studied both pastoral and systematic theology. While I have not read the entire Qu'ran, I have read most of it. (Actually, I think that my professor of Middle Eastern Religions believes that I read the whole thing!) Compared to the canon of scripture that makes up the Bible and the "whole" Torah, the Qu'ran is much closer to the texts of Deuteronomy and Leviticus...that is, far fewer narrative exploits of "heroes." In many respects, the Qu'ran was an exegetical tool for understanding the established Hebrew and emerging Christian canons.

Qu'ranic texts are very "stream of consciousness" in their form, it is virtually impossible to contextualize them. As opposed to the Christian Canon, the New Testament, which is quite contradictory the Qu'ran is repetitious. It is difficult to say why. It is highly likely that Muhammed "jotted down" the verses in widely dispersed sessions with little or no present records of his writings. That is, he probably wrote feverishly for a week or two and then did not write again for months. When he began to write again, he did not have the last records present so if it was not clear to him that he had addressed a point, he would address it again for safe measure.

Because much of the Qu'ran involves behavior, we see a preoccupation with "performance." In this respect, Qu'ranic Law is very much like Talmudic Law. That is, doing exactly the right thing is more important than one's intent. Perhaps one of the reasons that Islam and Judaism are always at one another's throats has to do with the fact that revenge is a clearly stipulated law. One is dishonored if revenge is not exacted. Christianity more closely resembles Buddhism or Hinduism in this regard. Because actions are judged by both intent and result, revenge becomes less prominent, even disdained.

I think that it is the role of revenge in both Talmudic and Qu'ranic scripture that creates the most difficulty for Westerners. Seen through their eyes, desecration of the US flag is the only way to equalize the scales tilted when the Qu'ran (so they believe) was desecrated. In much the same way that we invaded Iraq based on the erroneous information about WMD's, so too the Muslim community is acting based on erroneous information.

Oh...I guess I forgot what your question was. You did have a question didn't you? I mean, you asked:

I would really like to know if anyone here other than myself has actually read ANY of the Koran?

Does this mean that you have read the Bhagavad Gita and the Tripitaka? I certainly hope that it means that you have read the New Testament in Greek...I had to do that...what a drag, learning a new language just to understand the culture in which it was produced! I am really excited that you have probably read the Hadith...I used to think that I was the only non-Muslim to have read it. I will admit that I have only read translations of the Lotus Sutra, but as I believe that Mahayana Buddhism is the most accessible to Westerners, I have tried to understand the sutra and its meaning outside the canonical structure in which it was originally formulated.

But, hey! You know all of this already...I am embarrassed to even bring it up.

[OmahaBound]

umm, ownage

[GatorNation]

If it's so absurd, why didn't the 9/11 hijackers or advertise what they were doing? Why is it that the USDOJ says there are hundreds of *SECRET* cells of Al-Qaida in the US right now?

The mission for extremists is very covert. They do not and will not allow people to know their true intentions. Is it really that hard to believe that just one of your so-called friends could be hiding his TRUE feelings towards America and Americans?

These people are taught at a very young age to kill Americans and Israelis. There's simply no gray area to them. If you're not a muslim, convert them. If they will not convert, kill them.

I find it quite hard to respect a religion that tells you to murder an innocent person because of their beliefs. :cool:


It's true. Good points, Neo.

Only in a world so sick would people defend the privacy and protection of potential terrorists who are living among us.

We need to eliminate this absurd social stance that suggests we shouldn't inconvenience or offend people who may or may not be standing with us in these dangerous times simply because Orwell wrote a book or because Michael Moore actually got funding for one of his pathetic and dissembling "documentaries."

Why are our soldiers dying in Iraq? What is the point? To protect, in part, Muslims who are too scared, too evil, or too disinterested to stand up and take a stand...to actually DO something to change the prevailing stigma they so despise while taking steps toward stomping out (at the very least) domestic support for, and domestic infiltration of, Islamic extremism? Would you send your son to the front lines to die for people who couldn't give two sh--s about America beyond what it can offer them...who don't care about why he's there in the first place?

Time to wake up, people.

[jneesy]

But, hey! You know all of this already...I am embarrassed to even bring it up
ummm whats that smell.....

i do believe its smoke

[GatorNation]

Neo,

Since you ask, one of my two undergraduate degrees is in philosophy and religions. I was a Rockefeller Fellow at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley from 1979-1980 where I studied both pastoral and systematic theology.

Reb, that's great, seriously. I love the fact SECTalk is beaming with intelligent, well-read posters. It's very impressive. But I'm afraid your post is basically meaningless. It doesn't matter what the "Truth" is if extremists can "rewrite" Islamic teaching through intimation and suggestion, raising an entire horde of immoral jihadists from youth for the singular purpose of murdering innocent people in the name of Allah. No one in the Middle East (or Muslims the U.S. for that matter) is looking to the American "ivory towers" for truth, logic, context, reason, or scriptural exegesis. Rather, much of the harmful Islamic teachings come from well-respected institutions and educational leaders.

There are some animals you can't kill by chopping off their tails....we need to get to the root of the problem. Stopping these cells, disrupting networks, and preventing attacks are paramount issues, but cutting off the Wahabbi, extremist stream that nourishes and molds young, malleable minds is of no less importance.

I may be the only one who believes it, but you can bet there are mosques in the United States that preach the hate and the inevitable, necessary destruction of American "infidels." Why we allow such activity to continue is totally beyond my comprehension.

[Neo]

Reb, that's great, seriously. I love the fact SECTalk is beaming with intelligent, well-read posters. It's very impressive. But I'm afraid your post is basically meaningless.


Thank you..... :cool: You took the words right outta my mouth.

[uscrebel]

Thank you..... :cool: You took the words right outta my mouth.

If one is talking about thoughtful, meaningful words...this operation could be performed with an eyedropper.
:cool: :cool:

[OmahaBound]

it's clear that we're never going to agree on this one, so at this point i'm just curious how the other side is thinking...

if most muslims are extremist terrorists or are in some way helping terrorists, then how in the world have their not been significantly more attacks in the U.S. or in other countries outside of israel, iraq, and afghanistan. apparently there are almost 1.3 billion extremists in your mind....that's one hell of an army. as long as you're not going to say (a) they're just not smart enough to pull it off or (b) bush's policies are preventing them from taking over the world, then i'm legitimately interested in why you think 1.3 billion soldiers haven't done more damage.

[uscrebel]

Reb, that's great, seriously. I love the fact SECTalk is beaming with intelligent, well-read posters. It's very impressive. But I'm afraid your post is basically meaningless.

Gator Man....

I did not post the message to refute your claims about Muslim extremists or anything related to any of your posts. It was actually a reply to Neo's rather arrogant question about whether or not anyone other than he had ever read the Qu'ran.

I think that your position is a bit over the top, but I agree that that my academic background is not germane to whether or not Muslims should be allowed to stay in the US. My earlier post about living in a community that has many Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, etc. may be connected to your point, but that is for you to decide.

I have never been very good at much of anything other than scholarship, so I really get juiced when I have the opportunity to show that all those years in graduate school produced something meaningful...even if it is just capping on NEO...I think he actually means well...except for that Gamecock homer stuff.

[BeeDee]

Lemme make sure I'm understanding this correctly here...

Is it the belief of anyone here that all Muslims are enemies of the United States, our way of life and our republican values?

Does anyone here really believe that the Islamic faith, in its entirety, is evil?

Does anyone here advocate expelling anyone and everyone who practices Islam from this country?

[Neo]

Gator Man....

I did not post the message to refute your claims about Muslim extremists or anything related to any of your posts. It was actually a reply to Neo's rather arrogant question about whether or not anyone other than he had ever read the Qu'ran.


Arrogant???

I guess when someone questions why someone believes something, it's arrogant in your eyes. :rolleyes:


As for the homer part, I think people can read your posts and figure that one out. :cool:

[Neo]

Is it the belief of anyone here that all Muslims are enemies of the United States, our way of life and our republican values?


No....

What bothers me are the muslims that aren't condemning the bombings and such. Being silent is just as bad as giving your approval.



Does anyone here really believe that the Islamic faith, in its entirety, is evil?


I believe that the Islamic faith as a whole preaches violence and intolerance and I cannot and will not respect a faith that tells me to kill an innocent person because of their faith.



Does anyone here advocate expelling anyone and everyone who practices Islam from this country?


No.....

Just don't expect "warm" welcomes or anything of the sort while you're riding the fence.

[OmahaBound]

No....

What bothers me are the muslims that aren't condemning the bombings and such. Being silent is just as bad as giving your approval.



what manner of condemnation are you looking for? is simply saying to friends or anyone discussing it that it was wrong good enough or do you want everyone to put an ad in the local newspaper?

[GatorNation]

it's clear that we're never going to agree on this one, so at this point i'm just curious how the other side is thinking...

if most muslims are extremist terrorists or are in some way helping terrorists, then how in the world have their not been significantly more attacks in the U.S. or in other countries outside of israel, iraq, and afghanistan. apparently there are almost 1.3 billion extremists in your mind....that's one hell of an army. as long as you're not going to say (a) they're just not smart enough to pull it off or (b) bush's policies are preventing them from taking over the world, then i'm legitimately interested in why you think 1.3 billion soldiers haven't done more damage.

Imo, you're drastically overstating your case in an attempt to efface the substance of my argument. People (i.e., Muslims) need to make a decision. For whom do the silent Muslim majority stand....America, our soliders, and our way of life or their Muslim brethren? Unfortunately, it cannot be both at this time in history. If American (and international) Muslims fail to take a stand against terrorism, if they are silent, then they are guilty. They may not be guilty of the actual DOING, actually killing people (unless you're funding or aiding terrorism in some way), but they are no less responsible.

What I find completely hypocritical is that our society demands this exact response to other injustices: racism, racial and gender discrimination, etc. Someone please explain this to me: we, the general public, are morally and socially obligated to stand up against racism when we see it--i.e., it's not enough to simply give lip service and only SAY we're not racist; we actually have to DO something about it when it rears its ugly face--but Muslims are allowed to cower and hide behind religious freedoms provided by, what is in many cases, a surrogate nation without any accountability concerning moral, social, political, or religious responsibilities?

How did the left-wing, bomb-throwing liberals pull that one off?

What's good for the goose...as they say. If you want to be an American, if you want to assimilate yourself into this culture as an American Muslim, you will be more than eager to cooperate and play by our rules. If you're not so inclined, then there are only two reasons you'd want to live in America: (1) avariciously pilfer the immense rewards earned by the blood, sweat, and tears of our forfathers without regard for the nation itself and the culture upon which it is built or (2) trouble. Neither reason is acceptable in my book.

Look at it this way, we wouldn't be "deporting" them indiscriminately. We'd be evaluating their mental, spiritual, and political alliances....and processing them accordingly.

[OmahaBound]

but you're answering your own question....we're morally liable to denounce racism when we SEE IT (your words, my friend)....muslims are morally liable to denounce terrorism, hatred, and injustice when they SEE IT. if they're just living their lives like everyone else and have never heard hate speech at their mosque or met any terrorists then they are under no obligation to come out and say anything.

[Neo]

muslims are morally liable to denounce terrorism, hatred, and injustice when they SEE IT.


How could they not see it?

Ray Charles could see that a mile away. Oops! I forgot, Mr. Charles loved this country and stated many times that he was lucky and proud to be an American. :cool:

[OmahaBound]

How could they not see it?

Ray Charles could see that a mile away. Oops! I forgot, Mr. Charles loved this country and stated many times that he was lucky and proud to be an American. :cool:

oh come on man, you know what i mean....we're expected to audibly and publicly denounce racism when someone makes a racist joke or we are present when racism rears it's ugly head.

the same holds true for muslims. seeing it on TV doesn't count as seeing it in person. if the hate speech is coming from their mosque then they should say something. if they've heard someone talking about their support for terrorism they should say something. if they've heard it on cnn or foxnews then they're no different from you or i watching TV. are you concerned about my ties to terrorism because i saw it on TV yesterday and didn't call a press conference to denounce what i saw on the news?

[Neo]

seeing it on TV doesn't count as seeing it in person.


Tell Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton that. They don't have to actually hear it. If those guys think you said it, they will be on CNN in a New York minute condemning you for what you said. :cool:

[BeeDee]

What bothers me are the muslims that aren't condemning the bombings and such. Being silent is just as bad as giving your approval.

Just a quick web search would tell you that your statement here is incorrect. Many Muslims are condemning violence by Muslims around the world.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=ig&q=muslim+groups+condemn+bombing




I believe that the Islamic faith as a whole preaches violence and intolerance and I cannot and will not respect a faith that tells me to kill an innocent person because of their faith.
It's all in the interpretation. Not all Muslims believe in violence or intolerance. Ever heard of the Crusades? Salem Witch Trials? The Holocaust? Christians have done what you're protesting against for hundreds of years. Not all Muslims believe the same way, just as not all Christians do.



Just don't expect "warm" welcomes or anything of the sort while you're riding the fence.What exactly do you expect the ordinary, average Muslim to do? What are YOU doing to make a difference? What are YOU as a normal, ordinary, average American doing to stop the violence?

[GatorNation]

but you're answering your own question....we're morally liable to denounce racism when we SEE IT (your words, my friend)....muslims are morally liable to denounce terrorism, hatred, and injustice when they SEE IT. if they're just living their lives like everyone else and have never heard hate speech at their mosque or met any terrorists then they are under no obligation to come out and say anything.

How can you say they don't "see" terrorism?? Turn on the BBC, or really any news channel, and you're bombarded with it. Iraq, terror cells in California, American-born Muslims being sent to training camps from Nevada. Hell, 911 involved Saudis living and training in the US.

C'mon, Omaha. If we're going to discuss this, let's be real.

In any event, I never said it had to be terrorism on Madison Ave. We don't limit our responses and actions in dealing with slavery and racism to the Bayou, downtown Chicago, or Times Square....even though it's probably lurking there, somewhere, as well. Imagine if we only took a stand against slavery when we saw a black man chained to a tree working in a cotton field. Should we wait until someone like Dahmer murders 30 people or drills a hole in someone's head in an effort create a sex zombie before we act on behalf of the innocent, or should we ask questions and investigate, pursuing solutions to issues (and potentially more serious problems), when we discover the severed dog head on a stick in the backyard of Jeff's youth?

Are we supposed to wait until a terrorist is running down Main Street covered in explosives screaming to Allah?

Please.

It's insane to require such "evidence" before acting. Proactive, prescriptive measures, Omaha. That's the only way. Just because you may never actually "hear" or "experience" something, doesn't mean it doesn't happen...or doesn't exist...or that its morally right to do nothing about it. It's high time the wafflers decide....and if they can't (or won't), then we should decide for them.

[OmahaBound]

Tell Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton that. They don't have to actually hear it. If those guys think you said it, they will be on CNN in a New York minute condemning you for what you said. :cool:

so does that mean you like jesse jackson and al sharpton now?

plus jesse jackson and al sharpton are not normal citizens....if we want to limit our discussion to islamic leaders in this country then that does change the contexts of our arguments....but make up your mind before we continue...is it all muslims or just their leaders?

[SeattleGamecocks]

I'd like to take a moment to publicly denounce the actions of my fellow heathens for any crime against humanity they may have done in the name of non-worship.

[OmahaBound]

How can you say they don't "see" terrorism?? Turn on the BBC, or really any news channel, and you're bombarded with it. Iraq, terror cells in California, American-born Muslims being sent to training camps from Nevada. Hell, 911 involved Saudis living and training in the US.

C'mon, Omaha. If we're going to discuss this, let's be real.

In any event, I never said it had to be terrorism on Madison Ave. We don't limit our responses and actions in dealing with slavery and racism to the Bayou, downtown Chicago, or Times Square....even though it's probably lurking there, somewhere, as well. Imagine if we only took a stand against slavery when we saw a black man chained to a tree working in a cotton field. Are we supposed to wait until a terrorist is running down Main Street covered in explosives screaming to Allah? Please. It's insane to require such "evidence" before acting. Proactive, prescriptive measures, Omaha. That's the only way. Just because you may never actually "hear" or "experience" something, doesn't mean it doesn't happen...or doesn't exist...or that its morally right to do nothing about it.

It's high time the wafflers decide....and if they can't (or won't), then we should decide for them.


as i said in a previous post....for a normal, every day citizen to be morally required to come out publicly and become some sort of activist, then yes they do need to have personally experienced it....TV does not count.

you keep using your racism argument, but i'm not sure i remember seeing you in the newspaper or on TV denouncing racism. so i guess you're a racist? it just doesn't make sense.

[Neo]

It's all in the interpretation. Not all Muslims believe in violence or intolerance. Ever heard of the Crusades? Salem Witch Trials? The Holocaust? Christians have done what you're protesting against for hundreds of years. Not all Muslims believe the same way, just as not all Christians do.




Hold on. You're comparing apples to oranges. The Islamic faith teaches violence and intolerance. The Crusades and such were the acts of people with their own sick interpretation. Since you want links, here's a few for your personal enlightenment....

The Truth About Islam
http://www.lamblion.com/New08.php

The Christian View On Islam
http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam_and_the_koran.htm

Muslims Speak On Islam
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

That should keep you busy for a while.... :cool:

[OmahaBound]

What exactly do you expect the ordinary, average Muslim to do? What are YOU doing to make a difference? What are YOU as a normal, ordinary, average American doing to stop the violence?

This question from BeeDee really needs to be answered.

[OmahaBound]

Hold on. You're comparing apples to oranges. The Islamic faith teaches violence and intolerance. The Crusades and such were the acts of people with their own sick interpretation. Since you want links, here's a few for your personal enlightenment....

The Truth About Islam
http://www.lamblion.com/New08.php

The Christian View On Islam
http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam_and_the_koran.htm

Muslims Speak On Islam
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

That should keep you busy for a while.... :cool:


good thing we can be confident that everything you read on the internet can be trusted to be a complete and accurate description of 1.3 billion people.

[GatorNation]

as i said in a previous post....for a normal, every day citizen to be morally required to come out publicly and become some sort of activist, then yes they do need to have personally experienced it....TV does not count.

When the stakes are this high, yeah....they should be.

you keep using your racism argument, but i'm not sure i remember seeing you in the newspaper or on TV denouncing racism. so i guess you're a racist? it just doesn't make sense.

I'm not on TV, but I do my part to support people and organizations who can play a more active, direct role. I vote. I boycott. I'm selective in my purchases based upon how a company uses its profits. I try to DO things, omaha.

And that's more than most....

Imo, you're opinion provides an excuse for lazy, indifferent Muslims to avoid conflict and their ineluctable moral responsibility. And that same opinion concurrently provides lurking terrorists with the space, privacy, and motivation with which to plan, train, and facilitate terror activities. If their own people won't stand up against them, why would they stop? Because the infidels say so? lol....

[Neo]

*Sura 5:51 commands Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as friends.

*Sura 9:29 commands Muslims to fight against Jews and Christians until they either submit to Allah or else agree to pay a special tax.

*Sura 2:65-66 and Sura 5:60 contain references to Jews as “apes and swine to be despised and rejected.”

The Cultural Nature of Islam
The encroachment of Western culture cannot be stressed too much. It seems trivial to most Westerners, but that is because of the failure to understand that Islam is a cultural religion that deifies 7th Century Arabian culture.4

Westerners tend to view religion as something intensely personal and private, and not as a cultural phenomenon. For example, Christianity is “supra-cultural” in that it allows people to live, dress and eat in accordance with the culture in which they exist. This is not so with Islam. In Islam there is no “secular realm” that is free of religion. Islam regulates every aspect of life to the point that religion, politics, and culture are inseparable. Islam is thus fueled by a subtle form of racism in which 7th Century Arab culture is to be imposed upon all other cultures.

Here are some examples of the cultural nature of Islam:

Political Structure — The tribalism of 7th Century Arabia is the political structure sanctioned by the Koran. The chief has absolute authority. There is no concept of civil rights. This principle is reflected today in the reality that all Islamic countries are ruled by dictators, and civil liberties, like freedom of speech and religion, do not exist.

Prayer — A Muslim is required to pray five times a day toward Mecca. This is a symbol of the underlying cultural imperialism that lies at the heart of Islam. Think of it — what if all Russian Orthodox throughout the world were required to pray toward Moscow? Or, if all Roman Catholics were required to face Rome when they prayed? What if Evangelical Christians were required to pray toward Jerusalem? Such requirements would imply a cultural attachment to the focal point of prayer.

Pilgrimage — A Muslim is required, despite the hardship and cost, to make a pilgrimage to Mecca in Saudi Arabia once in his lifetime. Again, what if all Christians were required to go to Rome once in their lifetimes?

Dietary Laws — The only foods allowable are those that were acceptable in 7th Century Arabia.

Women — What an illiterate, nomadic tribeswoman wore in the desert in 7th Century Arabia is what is mandated for Muslim women today. The plight of women in Islamic countries today is despicable. They can be kept prisoners in their homes. They cannot appear in public without a covering. They are usually denied the right to vote. They are often denied anything more than a rudimentary education. In strict Islamic countries, women are generally treated as sub-human.5 Sura 4:34 says, “Men are the managers of the affairs of women . . . Those women who are rebellious — admonish them, banish them to their couches, and beat them.”

Punishment — Cruel and unusual punishment is practiced throughout the Islamic world. Incarceration without due process is common. Punishments often include torture, the cutting off of body parts (hands, ears and tongues), the gouging out of eyes, beheading, and public flogging — all representative of 7th Century Arabian culture. The Koran specifically commands that those who disobey Allah are to be tortured (Sura 8:12-14).

Time magazine recently presented a chilling summary of the cultural nature of Islam as it is evidenced in the “moderate” Islamic nation of Saudi Arabia:6

Despite the modernization that took place after the discovery of oil reserves in 1938, Saudi Arabia remains a land where rigid religious and traditional values are strictly enforced. Cinemas and discos are outlawed; men and women are separated in banks, schools, and fast-food restaurants; women must wear veils and are forbidden to drive. Public decency police known as muttawa comb shopping malls searching for women whose loose scarves reveal a curl of hair and forcing store owners to shut during prayer times. Unforgiving Saudi jus*tice is on view after the main prayer every Friday, when a swordsman beheads blindfolded murderers, sorcerers, drug smugglers, and other criminals in Riyadh’s “Chop-chop Square.”

[OmahaBound]

i see nothing wrong with the prayer and pilgrimmage aspects of that passage, and none of the muslims i know follow any of those other mandates. do you really do everything the bible tells you to do? i feel pretty darn confident you don't. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you do....no one can deny that the vast majority of christians don't do exactly what the bible says.

[BeeDee]

Hold on. You're comparing apples to oranges. The Islamic faith teaches violence and intolerance. The Crusades and such were the acts of people with their own sick interpretation. Since you want links, here's a few for your personal enlightenment....

The Truth About Islam
http://www.lamblion.com/New08.php

The Christian View On Islam
http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam_and_the_koran.htm

Muslims Speak On Islam
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

That should keep you busy for a while.... :cool:
Those sites, each and every one, were written with an anti-Islamic bias. There's not an objective or unemotional one in the bunch. They're all garbage and you're fully aware of that fact. The violence that is being perpetrated by Muslims is exactly as you described the crusades, "the acts of people with their own sick interpretation". If it weren't, then every Muslim in this country and around the world would be hell-bent on destroying those that they disagreed with. That's simply not the case. I work with a couple of Muslim guys and live next door to a Muslim family and they're all kind, decent people who have no ill-will toward me or you. In fact, the Muslim family next door to us sent us a Christmas card and cookies during the holidays...

[OmahaBound]

I vote. I boycott. I'm selective in my purchases based upon how a company uses its profits.

oh please do share how you know that many muslims don't do these things, gatornation. enlighten us all. i was unaware the vast majority of muslims didn't vote this year and that there was some sort of national awareness of what individuals boycott and do or don't purchase.

[GatorNation]

Not all Muslims believe in violence or intolerance. Ever heard of the Crusades? Salem Witch Trials? The Holocaust? Christians have done what you're protesting against for hundreds of years.

....but Christians aren't murdering anyone in 2005.

You can't point to a prior bad act as some justification for another bad act, especially when there is a considerable historical gap involved in the analysis.

[OmahaBound]

Those sites, each and every one, were written with an anti-Islamic bias. There's not an objective or unemotional one in the bunch. They're all garbage and you're fully aware of that fact. The violence that is being perpetrated by Muslims is exactly as you described the crusades, "the acts of people with their own sick interpretation". If it weren't, then every Muslim in this country and around the world would be hell-bent on destroying those that they disagreed with. That's simply not the case. I work with a couple of Muslim guys and live next door to a Muslim family and they're all kind, decent people who have no ill-will toward me or you. In fact, the Muslim family next door to us sent us a Christmas card and cookies during the holidays...


watch out, beedee...they may have read 'the art of war' and have all just devised a brilliant plan to trick you. you won't know it until it's too late! my friends are part of this group as well, apparently.

[Neo]

no one can deny that the vast majority of christians don't do exactly what the bible says.

The Bible doesn't tell me to kill someone because of their faith. The Bible teaches understanding, compassion and love for your fellow man.

The Bible doesn't tell me that I can beat the &^%* outta my wife just because she's my wife.

The Bible doesn't tell me that it's okay to refer to his children as "Apes and Swine".

The Bible doesn't tell me that I can marry up to four (4) women and do whatever I want with them. The Bible also doesn't say that I will be rewarded for murdering Jews and Christians by having 72 virgins waiting for me at the gates of heaven. :cool:

[GatorNation]

In fact, the Muslim family next door to us sent us a Christmas card and cookies during the holidays...

Yeah, and Mr. Hayat sold ice cream to neighborhood kids in CA from his ice cream truck....while he funded his son's terrorist training in a camp in the Middle East.

A Christmas card doesn't prove good will. If you were a terrorist, would you jack up the neighbors with anti-American mantras....or would you blend in and play an unassuming role in an effort to avoid drawing attention to yourself? Not saying these people next door are terrorists, but I am saying that we must move beyond mere assumption and conjecture to get at the truth.

[GatorNation]

oh please do share how you know that many muslims don't do these things, gatornation. enlighten us all. i was unaware the vast majority of muslims didn't vote this year and that there was some sort of national awareness of what individuals boycott and do or don't purchase.

The question involved what I do. omaha. And I answered the question. Stop reaching...

[GeauxTo]

Yeah, and Mr. Hayat sold ice cream to neighborhood kids in CA from his ice cream truck....while he funded his son's terrorist training in a camp in the Middle East.

A Christmas card doesn't prove good will. If you were a terrorist, would you jack up the neighbors with anti-American mantras....or would you blend in and play an unassuming role in an effort to avoid drawing attention to yourself? Not saying these people next door are terrorists, but I am saying that we must move beyond mere assumption and conjecture to get at the truth.
Very well said, Gateaux!
;)

[OmahaBound]

The question involved what I do. omaha. And I answered the question. Stop reaching...

i don't think it's reaching at all....are you saying you don't do enough and you should possibly be punished, or are you saying that muslims who have equal protection under the law as you should be required to do more or face punishment even if they have done nothing and have zero interaction with terrorists or hate speech besides what you and i watch on TV? i think we all know you are saying the second option is true, and i simply couldn't disagree with you more.

no one has still answered beedee's question that i reposted. what EXACTLY is it that you want an average muslim citizen to do? in what manner EXACTLY do you expect them to denounce terrorists?

[BeeDee]

The Bible doesn't tell me to kill someone because of their faith. The Bible teaches understanding, compassion and love for your fellow man.

The Bible doesn't tell me that I can beat the &^%* outta my wife just because she's my wife.

The Bible doesn't tell me that it's okay to refer to his children as "Apes and Swine".

The Bible doesn't tell me that I can marry up to four (4) women and do whatever I want with them. The Bible also doesn't say that I will be rewarded for murdering Jews and Christians by having 72 virgins waiting for me at the gates of heaven. :cool:
I challenge you to show me any officially recognized Islamic doctrine to this affect. These are the teaching of radicals, not the mainstream.

[Neo]

I challenge you to show me any officially recognized Islamic doctrine to this affect. These are the teaching of radicals, not the mainstream.


I already quoted you scripture earlier in the thread. :cool: Isn't that enough? :rolleyes:

[GeauxTo]

I challenge you to show me any officially recognized Islamic doctrine to this affect. These are the teaching of radicals, not the mainstream.And the Bible wasn't written (dictated) by one man (who could neither read nor write) via his wife and friends from visions he got in a cave.
The Koran claims for itself that it is clear. But, contrary to popular belief, if you look at the Koran, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply does not make sense. The fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible.

Some points regarding Islam and Human Rights:
1. Women are inferior under Islamic law; their testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is strictly restricted; they cannot marry non-Muslims.
2. Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries have inferior status under Islamic law; they may not testify against a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammad who said, "Two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia," non-Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build churches, possess Bibles, etc.
3. Nonbelievers -- atheists -- do not have "the right to life" in Muslim countries. They are to be killed. Muslim doctors of law generally divide sins into great sins and little sins. Of the seventeen great sins, unbelief is the greatest, more heinous than murder, theft, adultery, etc.
4. Slavery is recognized in the Koran. Muslims are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves (sura 4.3); they are allowed to take possession of married women if they are slaves (sura 4.28).

The whole notion of a person who can make choices and can be held morally responsible is lacking in Islam, as is the entire notion of human rights.
;)

[Neo]

As a prelude, pause, take a second, and have a look around the entire world. Wherever you have a critical mass of Muslims living in a non-Muslim area you have Islamic violence. Buddhists in Thailand, Hindus in India, Christians in Pakistan, Nigeria, and Indonesia, animists in Sudan, Jews in Israel, atheists in France and Turkey, people in North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia, whites, blacks, browns, etc., have all been murdered by devout Muslims. Islamic terrorism is here on a worldwide scale and it does not discriminate on the basis of race, nationality, or religion. No non-Muslims have been spared from Muhammad’s sword, the sword of Islam. :cool:

[BeeDee]

I already quoted you scripture earlier in the thread. :cool: Isn't that enough? :rolleyes:
The scripture that you quoted doesn't say at all what you claimed. I'm looking for anything that says that Jews and Christians should be killed. Looking for anything that says that killing Jews and Christians will get you 72 virgins in heaven, etc.. Last time I checked, not befriending someone wasn't the same as killing them. Taxation isn't exactly killing them either. Nor is despising and rejecting them.

[BeeDee]

And the Bible wasn't written (dictated) by one man (who could neither read nor write) via his wife and friends from visions he got in a cave.
;)
No, it was written years after the fact, based on second (or third or fourth or later) hand accounts. Very little of it was written first hand and none of it was written at the time of the events being described. But, we really don't want to get into a debate about biblical relevancy or accuracy here in this topic, do we?

[uscrebel]

Arrogant???

I guess when someone questions why someone believes something, it's arrogant in your eyes. :rolleyes:


As for the homer part, I think people can read your posts and figure that one out. :cool:

Neo,

The arrogance to which I was referring had to do with your belief that you were the only one who had read the Qu'ran.

I am assuming I can probably go toe to toe with you in most areas of philosophy, religion, psychology, and political science. I could be wrong, but I think I might have a bit more background in genetics, molecular biology, and theoretical physics.

I will completely cede to you the entire catalog of Kiss lyrics, owners manuals for handguns and high-powered rifles, Jessica Simpson's biographical and musicological works, and the Gamecocks media guides from 1980 through present day.

Everything else we should probably hash out on the board.

[drkralc]

No, it was written years after the fact, based on second (or third or fourth or later) hand accounts. Very little of it was written first hand and none of it was written at the time of the events being described. Don't forget the number of times it's been translated and the books that weren't included.

[GatorNation]

i don't think it's reaching at all....are you saying you don't do enough and you should possibly be punished, or are you saying that muslims who have equal protection under the law as you should be required to do more or face punishment even if they have done nothing and have zero interaction with terrorists or hate speech besides what you and i watch on TV?

I'm saying that if Muslims can point to things they are actually DOING to help the American cause, then they're obviously not the "problematic" Muslims to which I'm directing my criticisms.

[Neo]

The scripture that you quoted doesn't say at all what you claimed. I'm looking for anything that says that Jews and Christians should be killed. Looking for anything that says that killing Jews and Christians will get you 72 virgins in heaven, etc.. Last time I checked, not befriending someone wasn't the same as killing them. Taxation isn't exactly killing them either. Nor is despising and rejecting them.



Peace with the infidel is an abomination.


*2:191: "Kill them wherever you catch them. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.

*4:89: "In any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

*9:29: "Fight hose who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge he religion of Truth (Islam), even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

*3:85: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost."

*47:4: "If you meet those who are infidels or non-believers, you cut their heads off and tie things around their necks, start a war and God will give victory and those who will die in the war fighting God will not forget their acts."

"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" said Hassan Khader, founder of the Al Quds Encyclopedia.

Khader spoke during a lecture, broadcast Sunday, on what he describes as the war of the Jews against Palestinian "trees."



Is that enough for you??? :cool:

[OmahaBound]

I'm saying that if Muslims can point to things they are actually DOING to help the American cause, then they're obviously not the "problematic" Muslims to which I'm directing my criticisms.

but what exactly do you want them to do....you listed what you do, and there's no way to know whether each individual muslim does those things or not....it's just not possible....unless of course you want some international database where all muslims need to report their activities each week....even if you do want that (and for my sanity i'll assume you don't) then there would still be no way to prove it's accuracy....so what do you specifically want?

[GatorNation]

no one has still answered beedee's question that i reposted. what EXACTLY is it that you want an average muslim citizen to do? in what manner EXACTLY do you expect them to denounce terrorists?

Aside from all the things I've already mentioned....

I want them to take some initiative and police themsleves.

I want them to ask questions and have a healthy skepticism.

I don't want them to wait around for the FBI to lock down a hate-teaching school or mosque....grow a conscience, get involved, and be a part of taking it down yourselves.

I want them to provide any and all information as soon as they get it...even if they think it's meaningless.

I want them to stand up and demand accountability from themselves and other Muslims....financially, morally, ethically, politically, and spiritually....ESPECIALLY those Muslims in a position of authority or political influence in America.

I want them to sign petitions to get rid of harmful programming/websites and cooperate with law enforcement....even if that conflicts with their personal opinions, Islamic beliefs, or firm opinions about family members and friends.

I want them to be unambiguous as to the peaceful, non-terrorist teachings of the Koran. Stop waffling and be relentless in getting the RIGHT message out there.

I want them to put aside perceived injustices for the greater American good.

I want them to take a keen interest in the direction and education of their youth--both here and abroad.

I want more of them to step up and volunteer to be government translators to aid America's fight against terrorism. We're still behind in that area.

I want more outspoken outrage and criticism in the Muslim communities against Islamic and terrorist propaganda....both domestic and international.

I want American citizenship to be considered superordinate to some fing religious brotherhood.

I want an assimilation into American culture that does not compromise their honest, peaceful religious beliefs but does not reject our culture as immoral or evil, providing fuel for the terrorist's propaganda fire.

I want there to be so much pressure and criticism from the Muslim/Islamic community that Muslims who DO sympathize, in any way and to any degree, with terrorism, Islamic jihad, or religious extremism will not dare to demonstrate...and will feel intense pressure, uneasiness, fear, complete and total lack of support and empathy, restlessness, and anxiety. I want those people to vomit in fear and torment....I want them to believe that an American Muslim, honest and proactive, would turn them in to the authorities in a nanosecond....without religious hesitiation. I want those people to feel stalked and hunted by their own people.

Is that enough for you?

And yeah....we'll never know if person X is doing these things....that's why we HAVE TO ASK! We have to crawl up their a$$es and find out who is our friend and who is giving us lip service.

It's not complicated.

[GeauxTo]

And the Bible wasn't written (dictated) by one man (who could neither read nor write) via his wife and friends from visions he got in a cave.
The Koran claims for itself that it is clear. But, contrary to popular belief, if you look at the Koran, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply does not make sense. The fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible.

Some points regarding Islam and Human Rights:
1. Women are inferior under Islamic law; their testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is strictly restricted; they cannot marry non-Muslims.
2. Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries have inferior status under Islamic law; they may not testify against a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammad who said, "Two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia," non-Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build churches, possess Bibles, etc.
3. Nonbelievers -- atheists -- do not have "the right to life" in Muslim countries. They are to be killed. Muslim doctors of law generally divide sins into great sins and little sins. Of the seventeen great sins, unbelief is the greatest, more heinous than murder, theft, adultery, etc.
4. Slavery is recognized in the Koran. Muslims are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves (sura 4.3); they are allowed to take possession of married women if they are slaves (sura 4.28).

The whole notion of a person who can make choices and can be held morally responsible is lacking in Islam, as is the entire notion of human rights.
;)
BeeDee,
I think you missed the rest of this post, which concerned Islam and Human Rights (which was added later).

[OmahaBound]

and how would you like to enforce this on the 1-7 million (i couldn't find a solid estimate) muslims in this country that are spread throughout all 50 states...besides of course deporting them if they don't comply?

[GeauxTo]

The Koran cannot be considered of divine origin -- it was composed sometime between the 7th and 9th centuries, full of borrowings from talmudic Judaism, apocryphal Christianity, the Samaritans, Zoroastrianism, and pre-Islamic Arabia. It contains historical anachronisms and errors, scientific mistakes, contradictions, grammatical errors, etc. The doctrines presented are incoherent and contradictory and not worthy of a compassionate deity. On the other hand, the Koran also contains praiseworthy, though not particularly original, moral principles -- the need for generosity, respect for parents, and so on. But these are outweighed by the Koran's unworthy principles of intolerance of pagans, the call to violence and murder, the lack of equality for women and non-Muslims, the acceptance of slavery, barbaric punishments, and the contempt for human reason. Most of the traditions (Islamic law, called hadith) were forgeries put into circulation in the first few Muslim centuries, putting the entire foundation of Islamic law on very shaky ground. The whole of Islamic law is but a fantastic creation founded on forgeries and pious fictions. And since Islamic law is seen by many as the epitome of Islamic thought, the most typical manisfestation of the Islamic way of life, and the core and kernel of Islam itself, Islamic law is indeed a colossal sham being practiced with impunity throughout the Muslim world and at the expense of the non-Muslim world.

[JBryant12]

i have a few muslim friends and whenever i talk to them about whats going on in the Middle East the denounce the killing and terrorrism that is commited in the name of Islam but they don't go around shouting this just like i don't go around denouncing the KKK but if you ask me if i support them ill say Hell No....

[BeeDee]

Peace with the infidel is an abomination.


*2:191: "Kill them wherever you catch them. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.

*4:89: "In any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

*9:29: "Fight hose who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge he religion of Truth (Islam), even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

*3:85: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost."

*47:4: "If you meet those who are infidels or non-believers, you cut their heads off and tie things around their necks, start a war and God will give victory and those who will die in the war fighting God will not forget their acts."

"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" said Hassan Khader, founder of the Al Quds Encyclopedia.

Khader spoke during a lecture, broadcast Sunday, on what he describes as the war of the Jews against Palestinian "trees."



Is that enough for you??? :cool:
OK, so you want to interpret it literally? Then how about these from your bible? They sound pretty violent to me. So much for understanding, compassion and love...

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Numbers 15:30-31 "Any person who sins deliberately, whether he is a native or a foreigner, is guilty of treating the Lord with contempt, and he shall be be put to death, because he has rejected what teh Lord said and has deliberately broken one of his commands. He is responsible for his own death."

Numbers 15:32-36 "Once, while the Israelites were still in the wilderness, a man was found gathering firewood on the Sabbath. He was taken to Moses, Aaron and the whole community, and was put under guard, because it was not clear what should be done with him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must be put to death; the whole community is to stone him to death outside the camp." So the whole community took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord had commanded."

Exodus 32:27-28 "[Moses] he said to them, "The Lord God of Israel commands every one of you to put on his sword and go through the camp from this gate to the other and kill his brothers, his friends and his neighbours.

1 Samuel 15:1-8 "Now listen to what the Lord Almighty says. He is going to punish the people of Amalek because their ancestors opposed the Israelites.

Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken. The loss of his property is punishment enough."

Leviticus 25:44-46 (Take non-Christians as slaves) "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."

Would you like some more?

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

OK, so you want to interpret it literally? Then how about these from your bible? They sound pretty violent to me. So much for understanding, compassion and love...


I have no idea what your religious beliefs are BeeDee, but if you're going to quote from the Bible, please understand it first (and maybe you do and are just using it to rebut Neo's quotes from the Koran). And I can't speak to the laws (and meanings) that Neo quoted from the Koran (since I haven't read or studied the Koran).

From a Christian's viewpoint........
Question: "Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?"
Answer: The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to make the Israelites know how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments for example), some of them were to show them how to worship God (the sacrificial system), some of them were to simply make the Israelites different from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law applies to us today (except the one's that Jesus quoted and told us to follow). When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Rom 10:4; Gal 3:23-25; Eph 2:15). I'm not saying that the Old Testament has no relevance to a Christian. It does, as it contains lots of history, etc.

[BeeDee]

I have no idea what your religious beliefs are BeeDee, but if you're going to quote from the Bible, please understand it first (and maybe you do and are just using it to rebut Neo's quotes from the Koran). And I can't speak to the laws (and meanings) that Neo quoted from the Koran (since I haven't read or studied the Koran).

From a Christian's viewpoint........
Question: "Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?"
Answer: The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to make the Israelites know how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments for example), some of them were to show them how to worship God (the sacrificial system), some of them were to simply make the Israelites different from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law applies to us today (except the one's that Jesus quoted and told us to follow). When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Rom 10:4; Gal 3:23-25; Eph 2:15). I'm not saying that the Old Testament has no relevance to a Christian. It does, as it contains lots of history, etc.I consider myself an outsider looking in. I guess you'd say that I'm sort of an agnostic. I don't have the answer. I don't know whether there's a God, whether there was ever a man named Jesus Christ who ever lived, much less laid down his life so that I might have forgiveness. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just saying that I'm not convinced and therefore not going to commit to living my life based on some book that, for all I know, was written by a bunch of yahoos looking to start a cult (and boy, did it work). I was simply replying to Neo's quotes from the Qu'ran and his assertion that Islam is a religion of hate, while Christianity is all pretty flowers, cute cuddly puppies, love and cooperation. It just ain't so.

I think I get where you're coming from now though. Christians somehow get to pick choose what and when to and not to obey what was supposedly divinely inspired and written by your God's people as law. It's some sort of a judgement call? Funny that most Christians never mention that when they're beating everyone else over the head with their scriptures and doctrine. It's always "...THE BIBLE SAYS SO!!!!!".

Funny that you can understand that not everything in your bible still applies to modern day. Some of it may have been superceded or even just have become irrelevant over time, but Christians refuse to apply that same logic to other religions.

Anyone one of you that believes that ALL MUSLIMS are evil and are intent on destroying Jews, Christians or anyone else for that matter are completely diluted and need to really step back and look at how foolish you're making yourself and your fellow Christians look. Sure, there are bad apples, but that doesn't mean that they're all bad. Are all white folks members of the Klan? Are all white folks members of these radical militia groups or the Neo-Nazis? Of course not. It's an unfair generalization, just as the assertion that all Muslims are bad, evil or hateful.

[IrmoCock]

I think I get where you're coming from now though. Christians somehow get to pick choose what and when to and not to obey what was supposedly divinely inspired and written by your God's people as law. It's some sort of a judgement call? Funny that most Christians never mention that when they're beating everyone else over the head with their scriptures and doctrine. It's always "...THE BIBLE SAYS SO!!!!!".

C'mon, BD. The least you could've done was research the references that Gamecock_Fan gave you before you threw stones at his beliefs. Before saying it's a "judgement call" read the whole story.
When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Rom 10:4; Gal 3:23-25; Eph 2:15).

Read those references and you'll see that it's not a "judgement call" at all (it's not mankind deciding what laws and rules suit him/her best). The point of the Old Testament and all it's exhaustive laws was to show mankind that he/she was incapable of being "good" and needed redemption from an outside source.

[GAMECOCK_FAN]

I think I get where you're coming from now though. Christians somehow get to pick choose what and when to and not to obey what was supposedly divinely inspired and written by your God's people as law. It's some sort of a judgement call? Funny that most Christians never mention that when they're beating everyone else over the head with their scriptures and doctrine. It's always "...THE BIBLE SAYS SO!!!!!".
This statement proves to me that you know basically nothing about MY Christian beliefs. As I mentioned, the Old Testament contains a lot of history, which I believe actually happened. However, none of the Old Testament law applies to us today (except the one's that Jesus quoted and told us to follow).
Funny that you can understand that not everything in your bible still applies to modern day. Some of it may have been superceded or even just have become irrelevant over time, but Christians refuse to apply that same logic to other religions.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I have not read or studied the Koran, so what's your point? I find it kind of funny that you're putting all Christians into one basket, just like you're claiming others on here are putting all Muslims into one basket.
Anyone one of you that believes that ALL MUSLIMS are evil and are intent on destroying Jews, Christians or anyone else for that matter are completely diluted and need to really step back and look at how foolish you're making yourself and your fellow Christians look. Sure, there are bad apples, but that doesn't mean that they're all bad. Are all white folks members of the Klan? Are all white folks members of these radical militia groups or the Neo-Nazis? Of course not. It's an unfair generalization, just as the assertion that all Muslims are bad, evil or hateful.
I don't believe I've said (or anyone else for that matter) that I believe all Muslims are bad, evil, or hateful? (although some on here apparently want Muslims to take a stand against the bad apples)

[GeauxTo]

I consider myself an outsider looking in. I guess you'd say that I'm sort of an agnostic. I don't have the answer. I don't know whether there's a God, whether there was ever a man named Jesus Christ who ever lived, much less laid down his life so that I might have forgiveness. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just saying that I'm not convinced and therefore not going to commit to living my life based on some book that, for all I know, was written by a bunch of yahoos looking to start a cult (and boy, did it work). I was s