Energy Independent - Which direction should U.S. go?

[WayzUp]

Given our dependence on Middle East oil, what do you think would be the best choice(s) to help the United States become more 'energy independent'?

[uscrebel]

I keep thinking that if we used a small portion of the billions we are now pouring into Iraq and subsidized alternative energy research, we would probably have affordable non-fossil fuel sources. The only reason we give a crap about about Iraq or Middle East is oil.

[BeeDee]

Hydrogen is one of the most plentiful elements on the planet. If we can develop cost effective processes for refinement and distribution, there's no reason that we can't be energy independent. It can be done, it's just a matter of putting the time, effort and capital toward the goal.

I think the idea of using Oil Sands as a fuel source is a bad one. It doesn't solve the problem, only delays it, and it still has the issues of polution and the ecological problems caused by the strip mining process by which the oil sands are collected.

[GamecocksRule]

You picked an excellent topic to discuss Wayz! :D I have to admit some of those energy options in the list are ones I really have no clue about (pros/cons wise), and I think I will definitely have to do some research to learn more about them. I think it is important, especially for our country's younger generations today to be educated on this issue.

I am interested in which one ya'll think would really be the most "realistic" choice that could be implemented soon?

[jneesy]

i've heard many good things about bio diesel, also love nuclear power


http://www.biodiesel.org/

[Neo]

i've heard many good things about bio diesel, also love nuclear power

For info on nuclear energy, check out.....

http://www.nrc.gov/

US Nuclear Regulatory Commission

[JerryBeeds]

http://www.worldoil.com/Magazine/MAGAZINE_DETAIL.asp?ART_ID=2378

Shale looks promising....

[jneesy]

what i like about biodeisel is it can replace our arab(read:petroleum) based system with little to no modification as quick as we can get the production plants built and if biodiesel was say .80 cents a gallon compared to 2.00 gas just imagine what it would do fo the economy

diesel powered vehicles would fly out of showrooms
virtually every product price would go down due to cheaper transportation cost
cleaner environment
gas prices would fall due to reduced demand
supply would last as long as we can grow the ingredients to vegetable oil
which all equals less money for the terrorists that wish to wipe us from the face of the earth

[Tator]

The only problem with Bio Diesel, in regards to completely replacing gas, is with growing enough plant material to meet the current demand that is placed on oil. To be able to produce this amount and keep our wheat/corn belts producing food crops would be difficult.

I think the most promising alternative is hydrogen fuel cells. Though, the needed mass production processes for this is still out of reach.

One alternative fuel source that is currently being overlooked is frozen methane that is locked in the sea floor in every ocean in the world. While this material may not be suitable for cars, it may be able to replace fossil fuels in other areas such as power plant/industrial fuel. From what I have heard, there is several times more of this stuff than petroleum. It could be worth a look.

[SeattleGamecocks]

I voted for Bio Diesel. I think that its just midwestern states that have it now? And I don't really know much at all about Hydrogen Fuel Cells and unfortunately those Hybrids seem to not be nearly as efficient as were hyped up to be. I see a few of those single person solar cars on the way to work every day. They look neat but don't seem too safe w/ all the SUVs on the road.

[Tator]

I see a few of those single person solar cars on the way to work every day. They look neat but don't seem too safe w/ all the SUVs on the road.

The SUVs don't make the road less safe, it's the PEOPLE who don't know how to drive them.

[WayzUp]

The only problem with Bio Diesel, in regards to completely replacing gas, is with growing enough plant material to meet the current demand that is placed on oil. To be able to produce this amount and keep our wheat/corn belts producing food crops would be difficult.

I've been around farmers all my life...this country would have no problem feeding the demand if we ever get around to building the plants to create the capacity to replace gasoline. In fact, I remember growing up on our farm when I was a kid and we would get money every year to NOT grow over a certain amount and it was like that in Iowa too. My dad used to make jokes about how my Grandpa made more money on the pigs he didn't raise than the ones he did.

Another plus for bio-diesel is the by-product of its production is crude glycerine. This can be refined and used in a huge number of applications from pharmaceuticals to industrial lubricants. :cool:

[WayzUp]

The SUVs don't make the road less safe, it's the PEOPLE who don't know how to drive them.
I hope I don't sound too sexist when I say it's got a lot to do with chicks that drive them because they think they're cool and swerve to miss the cute little bunnies and squirrels that run out in front of them....swerve or SLAM on the brakes. :eek:

[uscballer101]

I voted for solar, and right now its not feasible, but with the recent improvements...I posted a link somewhere about it a long time ago, but a company in the US made an improvement where it would be cheap and could even be made into a paint where you could just paint it on an object...Im not a scientist, actually I suck at science, so I am not even going to try to explain it...I think Neo might remember specifics about the link I posted...But Solar IS going to be the way to go in the next 5-10years...

[Tator]

I've been around farmers all my life...this country would have no problem feeding the demand if we ever get around to building the plants to create the capacity to replace gasoline. In fact, I remember growing up on our farm when I was a kid and we would get money every year to NOT grow over a certain amount and it was like that in Iowa too. My dad used to make jokes about how my Grandpa made more money on the pigs he didn't raise than the ones he did.

Another plus for bio-diesel is the by-product of its production is crude glycerine. This can be refined and used in a huge number of applications from pharmaceuticals to industrial lubricants. :cool:

Thanks for the info and I agree, the key issue is the processing facilities needed to meet the demand. If we can get that off the ground, we may be on our way to telling the Saudi's to kiss our butts.

[Tator]

I hope I don't sound too sexist when I say it's got a lot to do with chicks that drive them because they think they're cool and swerve to miss the cute little bunnies and squirrels that run out in front of them....swerve or SLAM on the brakes. :eek:

LOL, don't forget the make-up shuffle!

[SeattleGamecocks]

The SUVs don't make the road less safe, it's the PEOPLE who don't know how to drive them.
"SUVs don't kill people. People kill people." Yep. They have a hard enough time seeing me on my bike and I'm eye level w/ most cars. Those solar cars are so low to the ground, they seem dangerous to alert drivers, much less people on their cell phones. Tangent soap box opinion: That should be the equivalent of a DUI in my opinion. Luckily the bike can get out of their way :cool:

[uscballer101]

The only problem with production plants is, they have a shelf life of 50 years? and people arent going to invest in more production plants to bring the cost of oil down especially since no one really knows how much oil we exactly have...

[jneesy]

bio diesel wouldnt have to replace gas just take a big load off the gas market to be really effective

[WayzUp]

Thanks for the info and I agree, the key issue is the processing facilities needed to meet the demand. If we can get that off the ground, we may be on our way to telling the Saudi's to kiss our butts.
That's another plus I forgot to mention...those huge refineries that take up an entire skyline would be a thing of the past too. The bio-diesel plant I sell some chemicals to is no bigger than a local oil company tank farm. You can barely tell anything out of the ordinary is even there....the infrastructure needed to get a bio-diesel plant going isn't as much a problem as getting the general public to accept buying cars that don't have as much horsepower.

Of course, the plant I sell to only expects to produce 5000 gallons a month so instead of having a handful of gargantuan refineries, we could just dot these mini-plants wherever we needed them. That'd make attacking our refineries a little more difficult too since they'd be just about everywhere we grow a seed crop. :cool:

[GatorNation]

I've been around farmers all my life...this country would have no problem feeding the demand if we ever get around to building the plants to create the capacity to replace gasoline. In fact, I remember growing up on our farm when I was a kid and we would get money every year to NOT grow over a certain amount and it was like that in Iowa too. My dad used to make jokes about how my Grandpa made more money on the pigs he didn't raise than the ones he did.

Another plus for bio-diesel is the by-product of its production is crude glycerine. This can be refined and used in a huge number of applications from pharmaceuticals to industrial lubricants. :cool:

I never thought about bio-diesel. Interesting. I went with the standards: solar, wind, and hybrid. I think people should prove that they're going to be serious about it before we try new things. Let's work with what we already have in place before we add other things, imo. I'm against nuclear plants for terror/safety issues, but I'm all for alternate energy methods. We really need to get off oil.

[Neo]

I'm against nuclear plants for terror/safety issues


That's because the media has used grade-school scare tactics to frighten people on nuclear energy both from the safety/terrorist aspects.

I worked in the nuclear security industry (VC Summer Nuclear Station) for many years. From a terror standpoint, there's no reason to be afraid. If you wanna know why, just ask. :cool:

[GatorNation]

That's because the media has used grade-school scare tactics to frighten people on nuclear energy both from the safety/terrorist aspects.

I worked in the nuclear security industry (VC Summer Nuclear Station) for many years. From a terror standpoint, there's no reason to be afraid. If you wanna know why, just ask. :cool:

I just remember reading about the mock-invasion ratings and security analyses on 60 Minutes.....they were both well below average. But if you're saying that even these findings are falsely represented scare tactics, I'd love to hear more.

[Neo]

I just remember reading about the mock-invasion ratings and security analyses on 60 Minutes.....they were both well below average. But if you're saying that even these findings are falsely represented scare tactics, I'd love to hear more.

This will be a long post so beware....

Every year in the nuclear security industry, the USNRC (US Nuclear Regulatory Commission) would oversee a test of the security forces called the OSRE. OSRE stands for Operational Safeguards Response Evaluation. The USNRC would get US military special forces (SEALS, Marines, Rangers and Green Berets) to simulate a mock intrusion. The whole process would take roughly 3 1/2 weeks of drills.

We would walk these guys around the facility for exactly one week showing them all of our response positions, etc, etc. Well, that next week and for a good 2 1/2 weeks, they would attack at ANY time, numerous times. We had no idea when they were coming or from where. According to Federal law and USNRC protocol, if the security force fails any more than 1 single drill, the plant is immediately shut down until the proper modifications can be made to security. To my knowledge, not one security force nationally has failed the very stringent OSRE examination.

The physical requirements are also very strict per the USNRC. The USNRC mandates that we undergo a physical exertion test to see if we can get to our response position before the terrorists can get into position. We used to call it the "stress" run and it would involve many stages without breaks or rest periods. It was drawn up to be as realistic as possible.

Stage 1: Run 150 yards and take out four (4) separate targets with our issued shotgun while reloading in exactly 35 seconds. (Before you say "That's simple", try it.)

Stage 2: Run 75 yards and go up four (4) flights of stairs and eliminate three (3) hostile targets with the shotgun in exactly 40 seconds. (Now keep in mind, you have already run 225 yards in a full sprint without a breather.)

Stage 3: Go down four (4) flights of stairs and run 15 yards and eliminate two (2) hostile targets in exactly 30 seconds.

That's a whopping 240 yards and eight flights of stairs while loading and shooting hostile targets in a total of 1 minute and 45 seconds. Keep in mind that if you failed ANY of the three (3) stages, you failed the exam. If you failed the exam on your retest, you were terminated. End of story. I was the youngest one there at the age of 23. The oldest I believe was an ex Navy SEAL and he was 44, but built like he was 19.

From a hiring standpoint, the nuclear security industry doesn't just hire joe-blow the ragman. They are very picky on who they hire and are subjected to numerous background checks, polygraphs, shrink exams, etc, etc. The nuclear security industry prefers individuals that are in top physical shape and are ex military. I believe there were only two (2) of us myself included that weren't military special forces.

From a security standpoint, I was on VC Summer's SWAT team and was a trained sniper. We were total professionals. The people I worked with were the best of the best and every night, we depended on each other for our survival if it ever hit the fan. The media used simple scare tactics to frighten the public and skewed their independent results to show what they wanted you to see. Did you also notice that they also showed you the oldest security guy they could find to give you the "lowdown" on nuclear power plants? How conveinent... I'm pretty sure you can go to www.nrc.gov and view the OSRE grades for each and every nuclear station in the nation unless that have made that info classified. I don't think they have though.

We used to go every year to the national SWAT competitions and consistantly finished in the Top-10 in the nation. We would compete against police, sheriffs, feds and even the LAPD's infamous SWAT team. I believe in 1999, we won the competition by beating out NYPD's SWAT team for the championship.

Nuclear power as a whole is one of the most reliable forms of power. The safety features on a nuclear power plant are top notch and what a typical person would consider "OVERKILL". There are features on top of features that prevent a release of radioactive material. :cool:

I'm more worried about a suicidal bomber blowing himself up in Wal-Mart than I am about terrorists attacking a nuclear power plant. When I have more time later today, I'll post even more info. :cool:

[Neo]

Interesting test video.

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/concreteplane.html

[GatorNation]

This will be a long post so beware....


That was awesome...thanks for the info, Neo. I had no idea things were that organized, secure, and well-defended. I must say, as well, that I'm very impressed....you can get my back anyday, lol! ;)

And that video was unreal. I can't believe the jet turned to dust on impact...really incredible. Never thought those walls were that powerful. Still trying to figure out, though, why they had a pilot fly the jet rather than use a remote or something. The fact that he came out of it with only a broken arm is a miracle, lol.

[Neo]

That was awesome...thanks for the info, Neo. I had no idea things were that organized, secure, and well-defended. I must say, as well, that I'm very impressed....you can get my back anyday, lol! ;)

And that video was unreal. I can't believe the jet turned to dust on impact...really incredible. Never thought those walls were that powerful. Still trying to figure out, though, why they had a pilot fly the jet rather than use a remote or something. The fact that he came out of it with only a broken arm is a miracle, lol.


You probably remember that the same 60 minutes special also said that the walls of the Reactor Building could be breached by crashing an aircraft into it. Well the video sums up my argument on that, but I do have a few things to add.

#1: All reactor buildings (RB's) have to be built using the same standards just like a building code. These codes were designed, tested and implemented by the USNRC for situations like this.

#2: During a refueling, I actually got to go into the RB and see what it looked like inside. The walls are exactly 35 feet thick of reinforced concrete and steel just as the video describes. There is also a layer of titanium that measures two (2) feet thick. As the video showed, a fully fueled jet travelling at 500+mph (Almost the speed of sound) was atomized on impact. What does that tell you about 60 Minutes so called expert that said the RB could be breached using simple explosives or a jet. :cool: I call BS on 60 Minutes and if I could, I'd slap each and every host for purposely misleading and terrorizing the American public with false information just to get ratings. :cool:

[WayzUp]

Interesting test video.

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/concreteplane.html
Reminds me of Danny Ware running into Ricardo Hurley... :D