Cleaning up behind Holtz

[Neo]

Cleaning up the mess Holtz left behind.

By: Ken Burger
Post and Courier Staff

Turns out Lou Holtz was preparing his players for life after football. When he had them picking up litter along the highway, he must have known some of them were destined to wear prison jumpsuits some day.
Now, in the wake of the Lou Holtz era at South Carolina, there is a necessary purging of the past as the program Steve Spurrier inherited keeps regurgitating troublemakers.

First there were those involved in the worst of the brawl in the season-ending Clemson game. That made national news and proved to be the tip of the iceberg USC's ship of state was headed for.

Then, when told they were not going to a bowl game because of their behavior, some Gamecock players displayed their immaturity by stealing things from the football stadium.

Then the team's star running back was kicked off the team for allegedly failing drug tests. Then two more players were dismissed for burglarizing a dorm room.

In short, it hasn't been pretty. But it is pretty representative of the kind of program left behind by Lou Holtz.

ACHILLES' HEEL

Throughout his coaching career, this was Holtz's Achilles' heel: his lack of discipline, especially towards underprivileged kids whom he believed he was helping with second, third and fourth chances.

The beginning of the end began with Derek Watson, the talented but troubled running back Holtz signed soon after he arrived at USC.

Watson was considered a recruiting coup at the time. But he turned out to be a cancer that ate away the heart of the Gamecocks team.

The more Watson screwed up, the more Holtz bent over backwards for him. The old coach apparently thought that no matter what the young man did off the field, his on-the-field abilities would save him from himself.

Ultimately, after numerous arrests, it was obvious that Watson was just a punk who didn't deserve the breaks he was being given. But Holtz couldn't bring himself to cut him loose. In the end, his superiors had to step in and do the dirty work for him.

HYPOCRISY EXPOSED

Holtz's laissez faire attitude towards troublemakers eventually exposed his hypocrisy. While publicly preaching responsibility to all his players, privately he whispered another set of rules to players who could really play.

That led to a locker room divided between those who toed the line and those who didn't know there was a line.

That lack of discipline led to the debacle at the USC-Clemson game and all the negative news that has spilled out of the Roundhouse since.

The fact that Spurrier seems willing to cast off these scofflaws is evidence that he might run a tighter ship.

But you have to wonder if Holtz didn't sell his golfing buddy a bill of goods when he talked him into taking over this group.

Did Holtz mislead him about his team's character? Did he gloss over the dirty details?

By now Spurrier surely understands what he has and what he has to do.

But wait, there might be one more little surprise.

Everybody expects the other shoe to drop this summer when the NCAA unveils its investigation of the USC program under Holtz.

Just one more little mess Lou left behind.



http://www.charleston.net/stories/Default.aspx?newsID=14260&section=sports

[USC_fanboy04]

Ouch what a slap in the face to Holtz, I don't believe Holtz is like is stated in the article. Apparently the only real thing this guy has to go on against Holtz is Dereck Watson. Yeah, he gave the guy some breaks, too many? Of course, but to say he lied about our team is ridiculous, obviously his guy has something against Coach Holtz, whatever it is i think it crawled up this guy's butt and died, cause this article STINKS.

[Neo]

Ouch what a slap in the face to Holtz, I don't believe Holtz is like is stated in the article. Apparently the only real thing this guy has to go on against Holtz is Dereck Watson. Yeah, he gave the guy some breaks, too many? Of course, but to say he lied about our team is ridiculous, obviously his guy has something against Coach Holtz, whatever it is i think it crawled up this guy's butt and died, cause this article STINKS.


Well Fanboy,

You have to look at this in perspective. History proves that Holtz has left each and every program in disarray to a point. With that in mind, we still haven't heard from the NCAA. I don't think there will be any violations, but given Holtz's reputation, it doesn't flatter me a bit.

As for Holtz and discipline. This writer hits the nail on the head. I for one have VERY close contacts within the football team and they agreed with the article. Because of Holtz treating some players differently than others, it created tension within the whole team. The very workings of it was hypocrisy at it's purest form.

I will always be thankful that Holtz came here and rebuilt this shattered glass of a program, but that doesn't mean I'm going to close my eyes to his faults and misdeeds while at USC. :cool:

[PyroMan]

I have personally known Ken Burger since I was a kid growing up in Allendale, SC. He's a good man and I agree with him on this. He's not casting aspersions, he's just stating the obvious. Lou Holtz has lots of great attributes, but his coddling of these players has ALWAYS ended up biting him in the butt. None of us should be surprised. As for Ken Burger, don't shoot the messenger...

[RW13]

What about when the messenger has a agenda? Like say, shameless self-promotion. He's a very little man, with even less talent than he has "male cartilage." I wonder why he's stuck writing for the little Post & Courier, maybe b/c he can't hack it in a real news market. He should be ashamed of himself, but the sad part is that he probably isn't. That's what people without knowledge, skills, or abilities have to resort to, attacking other people, especially when they aren't even coach anymore. What a big, tough man Burger is, talking trash about holtz when he's already been gone 4 months. And btw, what has burger done for the community, he can make light of holtz picking up litter and actually trying to improve the state of south carolina, but what has burger done? Oh yeah, that's right he writes pullitzer-level literature for us, right...........

[Neo]

What about when the messenger has a agenda? Like say, shameless self-promotion. He's a very little man, with even less talent than he has "male cartilage." I wonder why he's stuck writing for the little Post & Courier, maybe b/c he can't hack it in a real news market. He should be ashamed of himself, but the sad part is that he probably isn't. That's what people without knowledge, skills, or abilities have to resort to, attacking other people, especially when they aren't even coach anymore. What a big, tough man Burger is, talking trash about holtz when he's already been gone 4 months. And btw, what has burger done for the community, he can make light of holtz picking up litter and actually trying to improve the state of south carolina, but what has burger done? Oh yeah, that's right he writes pullitzer-level literature for us, right...........

You may be right, but the facts speak for themselves. Our team was in total chaos before Spurrier came along. The favortism thing makes me wanna puke profusely. :cool:

[RW13]

Yeah, if only we could be 1-10 again like we were under Brad Scott, those were the "golden days", give me a break guys, that is the way the real world works, are you really suprised?

[USC_fanboy04]

So is Holtz known for making schools better or worse? Aside from this article i've always heard good things from Holtz as a person and coach because of his ability to bring crap schools better. Besides, never heard this while he was coaching Carolina? Why then tell the "truth" now?

[Neo]

Yeah, if only we could be 1-10 again like we were under Brad Scott, those were the "golden days", give me a break guys, that is the way the real world works, are you really suprised?

To be honest, yes I am.

I am very surprised at the recent turn of events. I think it's shameful and embarrassing. :(

[uscballer101]

Are you blaming Holtz for the way these kids are acting...You cannot be responsible for other people's actions...And we don't know if they tried anything under holtz, they couldve respected him and not done anything...I think its just these guys are immature and irresponsible...

[Neo]

So is Holtz known for making schools better or worse? Aside from this article i've always heard good things from Holtz as a person and coach because of his ability to bring crap schools better. Besides, never heard this while he was coaching Carolina? Why then tell the "truth" now?

I didn't say he definitely brought schools down. What I said was that he left them in disarray to an extent. As a coach, Holtz is and always will be one of the best of all time. He is known for rebuilding troubled programs, that much is certain.

I think the truth is leaking out. I mean it's hard to dispute what has transpired over the last 4 months. :cool:

[uscballer101]

You shouldnt listen to what a Charleston newspaper has to say anyways, nothing good has ever come out of Charleston...its a hellhole

[Neo]

Are you blaming Holtz for the way these kids are acting...You cannot be responsible for other people's actions...And we don't know if they tried anything under holtz, they couldve respected him and not done anything...I think its just these guys are immature and irresponsible...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I am VERY close to the football athletic department. Holtz gave his "stars" star treatment while holding the rest of the players at a different standard. That much is fact. That in turn, caused great stress between the players. How are these guys supposed to play together and win when some of the players dispise the others?

These football stars are like terrorists. They will push the envelope to see how far they can go and what they can get away with. :cool:

[Neo]

You shouldnt listen to what a Charleston newspaper has to say anyways, nothing good has ever come out of Charleston...its a hellhole


It's not the paper, it's Holtz's resume. Do your homework and look it up. :cool:

[uscballer101]

I didn't read the article, I was talking about Charleston...

[uscballer101]

And im not looking stuff up for a message board, it isn't that serious...

[USC_fanboy04]

Are you blaming Holtz for the way these kids are acting...You cannot be responsible for other people's actions...And we don't know if they tried anything under holtz, they couldve respected him and not done anything...I think its just these guys are immature and irresponsible...

I agree with ya Baller, you can't blame Holtz for another person's actions, first you have to look at the player, the people they hang out with, the parents, then the coach. These are not little boys, they should have learned responsiblity at a younger age before they met Holtz.

I doubt Derek Watson was a very good person only to have Holtz tell him to do drugs. Or maybe Holtz, Summers, and Watson smoking some dope after every game to celebrate. I mean seriously comon, these players already were smoking/acting up in their lifes before Holtz was in the picture. I guess it's just easier to blame a old coach that brought this program from the dirt. If you want blame a coach, go find their high school coach and talk to him.

[BigSpur]

You have to hold a coach responsible for not only the talent he brings in, but the character of the talent. If Lou is bringing criminals to the program he must be held responsible. Every where he has gone he has had player problems and the NCAA sniffing behind him. Lou has a history of turning programs around, because for the simple fact that he can win the kids parents and kids over with his wry jokes, easy mannerisms and witty remarks, and promise all kinds of things for star players. Take Summers for instance, publicly we heard that he promised him the first carry of the season as a freshman, which I have no problem with, but what else does Holtz promise behind the scene. He has left trash behind at almost every program he's been at, and this is nothing new. The only thing we really owe Holtz is gratitude for helping bring Spurrier to Carolina. The bowl games were nice(you can really thank Phil Petty for those), but those 2 years were the eye of the hurricane. We definetly don't owe him for his 1-5 record against Clemson. I'm not sure what it is that makes people stand up for Holtz even when he is dead wrong. His play calling and game planning was attrocious, Period. But you would still hear people stick up for him, always saying something stupid like "well he's forgotten more about football than you've learned" give me a break, He was a good recruiter and motivator(while he had control of his teams). A disciplinarian he was not, he set the example with Derrick Watson's special treatment and I have a feeling he lost the respect of a lot of players during his tenure. We will see how much trouble comes out after Spurriers tenure, and see how it measures up with Holtz. I have a feeling it will be drasticly different.

[uscballer101]

do you really think it's the 1950's leave-it-to beaver world neo? No offense, but you're old enough to know the world doesn't work in black and white. What the players have done the past 4 months is shameful. But why bashing/blaming holtz so much, Burger is a moron, and what exactly did we have before Holtz? 1 winning season in the 90's? Sparky Woods and Brad Scott? You better thank god every day holtz decided to come here b/c Spurrier would not be here if Holtz had not come first, how quickly you guys forget this, I guess it's convenient in leave-it-to-beaver world to do that, to just think spurrier would come here after a brad scott or something, incredible, you guys amaze me, unappreciative....

[Neo]

do you really think it's the 1950's leave-it-to beaver world neo? No offense, but you're old enough to know the world doesn't work in black and white. What the players have done the past 4 months is shameful. But why bashing/blaming holtz so much, Burger is a moron, and what exactly did we have before Holtz? 1 winning season in the 90's? Sparky Woods and Brad Scott? You better thank god every day holtz decided to come here b/c Spurrier would not be here if Holtz had not come first, how quickly you guys forget this, I guess it's convenient in leave-it-to-beaver world to do that, to just think spurrier would come here after a brad scott or something, incredible, you guys amaze me, unappreciative....

Nope, we are just educated and informed. NOWHERE in my posts did I say that I wasn't appreciative of Holtz coming here. Dude, I was watching USC football back when you were still a sperm. :cool:

I will always be thankful that Holtz came here and rebuilt this shattered glass of a program, but that doesn't mean I'm going to close my eyes to his faults and misdeeds while at USC. :cool:

[uscballer101]

how about Burger and you show some appreciation then, this happens at every program, we're no different, you think South Carolina never had problems on the fb team before holtz? Ever heard of Joe Morrison? Half of his teams were on steroids, this isn't new so stop acting like it is, and at least I've matured since being a sperm, you seem to still act like an 8 year old if you think people don't misbehave if they play football, that's ridiculous, politicians screw up, athletes screw up, actors screw, you screw up and I screw up, it's called life, not Lou Holtz's fault, you should know that being the age you are....

[JBryant12]

Holtz brought in kids with character problems sure...but hasnt every coach? I believe Holtz thought he was giving these players a good chance to recieve a good education and further their lives....I think that Holtz thought he might be able to reverse these players problems and help them work through them...i would also like to point out that while Holtz was there for the most part these players were kept under control.....

[Neo]

how about Burger and you show some appreciation then, this happens at every program, we're no different, you think South Carolina never had problems on the fb team before holtz? Ever heard of Joe Morrison?

Yes and I had the pleasure of meeting him and watching his teams play. Did I harp on him too about using the "sauce"? You are damn right I did. BTW: Were you even born when Morrison took the job? :cool: By being a regular donator to USC, that gives me every right to criticize that program when it needs it. Now you need to get your head out of the "Nick at Nite" Marathon.



Half of his teams were on steroids, this isn't new so stop acting like it is, and at least I've matured since being a sperm, you seem to still act like an 8 year old if you think people don't misbehave if they play football, that's ridiculous, politicians screw up, athletes screw up, actors screw, you screw up and I screw up, it's called life, not Lou Holtz's fault, you should know that being the age you are....


Nope, you are the one that's so freakin naive. Holtz bares some blame just like the players. No one is saying that there isn't trouble in football, but is it a bad thing to strive for perfection? According to your comic book/PS2 fantasy world, it's a bad thing to be the best and want the best.

Lou Holtz encouraged this behavior by not instilling discipline within the team. It's just like parenting. :cool:

[uscballer101]

I read comic books? I didnt know that...You critized a coach at 9 or 10 years old? Probably not...At least I don't sit on a damn website and post 5000+ messages, get a life...

[uscballer101]

Oh, and this is baller talking not RW...buddy...

[USC_fanboy04]

You have to hold a coach responsible for not only the talent he brings in, but the character of the talent. If Lou is bringing criminals to the program he must be held responsible. Every where he has gone he has had player problems and the NCAA sniffing behind him. Lou has a history of turning programs around, because for the simple fact that he can win the kids parents and kids over with his wry jokes, easy mannerisms and witty remarks, and promise all kinds of things for star players. Take Summers for instance, publicly we heard that he promised him the first carry of the season as a freshman, which I have no problem with, but what else does Holtz promise behind the scene. He has left trash behind at almost every program he's been at, and this is nothing new. The only thing we really owe Holtz is gratitude for helping bring Spurrier to Carolina. The bowl games were nice(you can really thank Phil Petty for those), but those 2 years were the eye of the hurricane. We definetly don't owe him for his 1-5 record against Clemson. I'm not sure what it is that makes people stand up for Holtz even when he is dead wrong. His play calling and game planning was attrocious, Period. But you would still hear people stick up for him, always saying something stupid like "well he's forgotten more about football than you've learned" give me a break, He was a good recruiter and motivator(while he had control of his teams). A disciplinarian he was not, he set the example with Derrick Watson's special treatment and I have a feeling he lost the respect of a lot of players during his tenure. We will see how much trouble comes out after Spurriers tenure, and see how it measures up with Holtz. I have a feeling it will be drasticly different.

The only thing we owe Lou Holtz is the fact he brought SS in??? Your crazy, yes his play callings were horrible, but guess what? I'd rather have 6 game winning seasons then a winless program. You should be thankful he took the challenge of pulling us off the ground, giving South Carolina national acknowledgement, 2 bowl games, good recruiting seasons, and bringing Steve Spurrier. You sound like you hated every year Holtz was here, I for one, went to every home game and was happy we actually competed.

I guess during the years Holtz was here it seemed to slip everyones mind about how he helped star players get buy eh? Seems the only time it was even questioned was when Derek Watson was here, strange.

[Neo]

I read comic books? I didnt know that...You critized a coach at 9 or 10 years old? Probably not...At least I don't sit on a damn website and post 5000+ messages, get a life...

You are telling me to get a life while you are on a message board as well? :rolleyes:


Priceless... :D

[uscballer101]

Yeah, I don't have nor will I ever have 5000+posts...

[uscballer101]

Nor do I model myself after a fictional character in a Sci-Fi movie...

[JBryant12]

Come on children...now simmer down....and just kiss and make up

[uscballer101]

Children? you are 16 years old, dont start...

[Neo]

Yeah, I don't have nor will I ever have 5000+posts...

That's because I've been here longer...DUH!


That's not the point though. The point is you tell me to get a life and I bet you are still living with Mommy and Daddy and typing on their computer while posting on these "get a life" message boards.

Don't be a hypocrite! :cool:

[Neo]

Nor do I model myself after a fictional character in a Sci-Fi movie...

WOW!

That one hurt.... :rolleyes:

[JBryant12]

Now dont be scared to tell us what you really think about each other....

[uscballer101]

First off, I attend USC so I couldnt be at home, second, its my own computer...And third at least I don't use my father to get me jobs at age 30, my dads dead and has been since ive been 8, so I cant rely on that...

[JBryant12]

now that thats done.....we can get on with the discussion

[OmahaBound]

Well, it's nice to see people not taking things too seriously on a message board....oh wait...

[uscballer101]

Stay out of it...

[Neo]

First off, I attend USC so I couldnt be at home, second, its my own computer...And third at least I don't use my father to get me jobs at age 30, my dads dead and has been since ive been 8, so I cant rely on that...

I don't rely on anyone either because I don't have to. I work for my own company. :cool:

[Neo]

Well, it's nice to see people not taking things too seriously on a message board....oh wait...

Thank you.

This is just like the temper tantrum he threw because people said they hated rap. :cool:

I'm done....

[OmahaBound]

Stay out of it...

If there's anything to 'get into' then do it in private messages....now as far as Holtz, I don't think there's any doubt that we owe any respectability we have in this program at the moment to him. That doesn't change the fact however, that something was seriously wrong with the state of the program when he left. You said earlier that everybody does it and that's just the way it is. It may be true, but that doesn't make it right. It's a university. The purpose of which is to educate, better the state of SC, and boost the economy. Having a great football team could certainly help those areas, but it's not necessary. If I have to root for a crappy team for the rest of my life I would be fine with that if the only alternative was to sell our soul. Luckily that's not the only alternative and Spurrier doesn't take any crap from any players. The story in The State last week of him benching Doug Johnson against the #6 team in the country for missing curfew was awesome. Things are looking up for the USC football team, and hopefully that includes the character of the team as well as its ranking.

[uscballer101]

Temper tantrum...yeah...well, at least I can sleep at night knowing I'm not a smug ..... ...And I'm done...


Personal profane attacks are not allowed.

Neo
SECTalk.com Admin/News Writer

[JBryant12]

How did this thing start anyway?

[GRASSHOPPER]

You shouldnt listen to what a Charleston newspaper has to say anyways, nothing good has ever come out of Charleston...its a hellholei take that a little personal!

[JBryant12]

Temper tantrum...yeah...well, at least I can sleep at night knowing I'm not a smug ..... ...And I'm done...

Pheeew glad thats over with..... :D

[RW13]

I thought the only perfect person was Jesus. Rebeldude, you're more familiar with the bible then me, wasn't Jesus the only one? No one is perfect, and Burger is barely scratching the surface of what I call a human being, and anyone who defends Burger needs to reevaluate their purpose in life.....

[Neo]

I think Lou gets some of the blame. With some players, one could say "I never saw it coming". but with others, it wouldn't have taken much investigation to see they had baggage coming in. plus, it now turns out that he was pretty much a part time coach, in Florida more than here in SC. he wasn't blamed for the brawl entirely, but it is coaching, and his players should have been coached better than to go into someone else's stadium and meet them at the bottom of the hill during their entrance. in light of our last 3 seasons, and what's transpired since he's left, I'm kinda glad he decided to retire.

[GRASSHOPPER]

Hey Baller If You Live In Georgetown- What Do You Have Against Charleston. Comparing Charleston To Georgetown Is Like Comparing Mt. Pilot To Mayberry. What Do You Have Against Chuck Town?

[Neo]

Hey Baller If You Live In Georgetown- What Do You Have Against Charleston. Comparing Charleston To Georgetown Is Like Comparing Mt. Pilot To Mayberry. What Do You Have Against Chuck Town?

I like Charleston. :D

It has a nice ambience to it. :cool:

[uscballer101]

Actually I hate Mt. Pleasant, sorry...It's the people in Mt. Pleasant that I do not like...

[GRASSHOPPER]

My Opinion Is All Teams Have Bad Eggs. It's What You Do With Them That Seperates You As A Coach. Lou Chose To Keep Trying To Rehab Them By Giving Them Babysitters. Sos Choses To Dismiss Them From The Team. That Being Said, The Others Left On The Team Will Now Think Twice Before They Act. Whereas W/ Lou They New The Punisment Would Be Easy. With Sos They Are Done!gone! See Ya! Bye-bye!don't Let The Door Hit Ya!--- On Ken Burger- He Is A Uga Grad. Hates Usc- Only Once Or Twice Written Something Positive About Usc--- But--- He Usually Writes The Truth Whether We Like It Or Not. He Is The Type Who Will Kick A Program When They Are Down-- You Know The Type Salt In The Ole Wounds And All! Don't Really Like To Read His Write Ups But It's Like A Train Wreck You Have To Look!

[Neo]

But It's Like A Train Wreck You Have To Look!

Ya know it!!! We all rubberneck accidents! :D

[GRASSHOPPER]

Actually I hate Mt. Pleasant, sorry...It's the people in Mt. Pleasant that I do not like...FAIR ENOUGH BECAUSE THEY ARE A LITTLE UPTIGHT! JAMES ISL. A GREAT PLACE TO LIVE. ABOUT 3 MILES FROM THE BEACH!!

[GRASSHOPPER]

Ya know it!!! We all rubberneck accidents! :DDURING FB SEASON AFTER EVERY GAME I SWEAR I WILL NOT READ HIS WRITE UP BUT GUESS WHAT I THINK I READ IT JUST TO CUSS HIM A LITTLE BIT MORE.

[uscballer101]

You live on James Island?

[GRASSHOPPER]

You live on James Island?
YES I DO- GOT SOME PEEPS OVER HERE?

[uscballer101]

Nah, just been there before...It's pretty nice...The only thing I don't like about Chucktizzle is the one-way streets...

[GRASSHOPPER]

Nah, just been there before...It's pretty nice...The only thing I don't like about Chucktizzle is the one-way streets...YOU'RE ONLY EVER GOING ONE WAY

[BigSpur]

The only thing we owe Lou Holtz is the fact he brought SS in??? Your crazy, yes his play callings were horrible, but guess what? I'd rather have 6 game winning seasons then a winless program. You should be thankful he took the challenge of pulling us off the ground, giving South Carolina national acknowledgement, 2 bowl games, good recruiting seasons, and bringing Steve Spurrier. You sound like you hated every year Holtz was here, I for one, went to every home game and was happy we actually competed.

I guess during the years Holtz was here it seemed to slip everyones mind about how he helped star players get buy eh? Seems the only time it was even questioned was when Derek Watson was here, strange.

First of all glad you acknowleged the lack of play calling, the most hard core of the Holtz supporters will not even give into that. Your statement of wanting 6 wins over a winless shows your and many other Carolina fans fondness for mediocrity, and by the way didn't Holtz go 0-11. And I went to every game that year, the year before and the two afterwords. Home and away and bowls(which like I said earlier you can thank Phil Petty for). I enjoyed the 9 win seasons, but the sad thing is we were still hampered by poor coaching and poor use of the talent we had, in those seasons and lost close games we should of won(Arkansas, Clemson, UT). I know for Carolina fans who were used to 5 wins or less a season it was very easy to overlook those facts but they are there. I was glad to see us compete but it was hard to watch us flounder at the end of seasons, only beat clemson once, never beat UT(sparky did) or UF. Like I said beside for Petty winning us those 2 bowls all we can thank Holtz for is convincing Spurrier to come to Carolina. That in my minds puts him at the 3rd best coach USC ever had behind Morrison and Carlen.

[uscballer101]

So we can't thank Lou Holtz for bringing in the talent that he did...or did you just forget to mention that?

[Neo]

So we can't thank Lou Holtz for bringing in the talent that he did...or did you just forget to mention that?

Lou was a hands off coach and lost what he had to offer as the kind of coach we wanted him to be. He had the distraction of his wifes health and his home was in Florida.. It just did not work out. Don't know if he has any serious violations in his time at USC and time will tell. We never seem to let go of things but its a good time to put the past in the past and go with a positive straight forward SOS who will be successful at USC.

BTW: What if the NCAA does come down fairly hard on USC? What will you say then? Would cheating have been worth it? We're the ones who would be left holding the bag with NCAA sanctions while Lou lives it up in Orlando. Hopefully, it won't come to that. Sorry, just because Lou came here when no one else would doesn't excuse what would happen in that scenario. And just because similiar things happened in other programs doesn't excuse it either.

[Dr. Pepper]

Whew! You guys wore me out this afternoon. Lot of frustration and anger. Hope your furniture, wife, kids, dog, fare better than your keyboard did today.

I live in Georgia, don't know Berger, can't comment.
Love Charleston.
Holtz did USC and the state of SC a lot of good.

However, like a nation, a team divided against itself cannot stand. Even Lou and Skip were at odds with one another. One of our local boys played for USC after JC and he came home very discouraged after his senior season. He is yet to decide what to do with his life.

When my son played HS ball, our coach would coddle the troubled athletes. There were double standards. In 3 seasons, we went 8 and 22. You can either work with them and struggle or send them on their way and appeal to the athletes who decided they would not play because of the chaos. New coach came in last year...kicked the troublemakers off the team...went 6-4.

Spurrier will get rid of the chaos and we will begin to win.

[Neo]

Whew! You guys wore me out this afternoon. Lot of frustration and anger. Hope your furniture, wife, kids, dog, fare better than your keyboard did today.

I live in Georgia, don't know Berger, can't comment.
Love Charleston.
Holtz did USC and the state of SC a lot of good.

However, like a nation, a team divided against itself cannot stand. Even Lou and Skip were at odds with one another. One of our local boys played for USC after JC and he came home very discouraged after his senior season. He is yet to decide what to do with his life.

When my son played HS ball, our coach would coddle the troubled athletes. There were double standards. In 3 seasons, we went 8 and 22. You can either work with them and struggle or send them on their way and appeal to the athletes who decided they would not play because of the chaos. New coach came in last year...kicked the troublemakers off the team...went 6-4.

Spurrier will get rid of the chaos and we will begin to win.

Very good post and I totally forgot about the way Holtz totally ridiculed his son on ESPN. ESPN knew about Skip being demoted before Lou told Skip. Skip found out because ESPN called his house for a comment. The constant bickering between the two had to have made an impression.

[BigSpur]

So we can't thank Lou Holtz for bringing in the talent that he did...or did you just forget to mention that?
Petty was Brad Scott's recruit

[Neo]

Petty was Brad Scott's recruit

You remember ol' Victor Penn? Holtz didn't care for him too much and he went down to UCF and set a bunch of UCF/NCAA passing records. :(

[uscballer101]

Yeah...Summers, Boyd, Ko Simpson, Fred Bennett, Jonathon Joesph, George Gause, Moe Thompson, and on and on and on...We had decent players before, but we have championship-type players here, just need someone to take them there. And Neo, I said nothing about legal/illegal issues with Holtz, I commented why cant we thank him for the quality players he brought in, read more carefully next time...

[BigSpur]

Yeah...Summers, Boyd, Ko Simpson, Fred Bennett, Jonathon Joesph, George Gause, Moe Thompson, and on and on and on...We had decent players before, but we have championship-type players here, just need someone to take them there. And Neo, I said nothing about legal/illegal issues with Holtz, I commented why cant we thank him for the quality players he brought in, read more carefully next time...

Did you just mention Moe Thompson. lol

[Neo]

Yeah...Summers, Boyd, Ko Simpson, Fred Bennett, Jonathon Joesph, George Gause, Moe Thompson, and on and on and on...We had decent players before, but we have championship-type players here, just need someone to take them there. And Neo, I said nothing about legal/illegal issues with Holtz, I commented why cant we thank him for the quality players he brought in, read more carefully next time...

I know what you said. I wasn't commenting on that. I just have a habit of hitting the quote button whenever I make a post.

I know you didn't just mention Summers and Thompson???? :eek:

[Neo]

why cant we thank him for the quality players he brought in, read more carefully next time...

Well....that all depends on what the NCAA has to say about it later this year.


BTW: The NCAA never did send USC an official letter of inquiry??? :confused:

[uscballer101]

Yes, I did mention both of those players, because they are great athletes...I was commenting on the type of talent he brought in...

[BigSpur]

Yes, I did mention both of those players, because they are great athletes...I was commenting on the type of talent he brought in...

And my point has been the character of the talent he brough in and what he did(or didn't do to instill discipline) it wasn't just off field that he had the problems, Moe Thompson was in the fight last year at Clemson on the field, and the whole team crumbled at the end of the last 3 seasons, and even Holtz has admitted it was a discipline problem.

[Neo]

And my point has been the character of the talent he brough in and what he did(or didn't do to instill discipline) it wasn't just off field that he had the problems, Moe Thompson was in the fight last year at Clemson on the field, and the whole team crumbled at the end of the last 3 seasons, and even Holtz has admitted it was a discipline problem.

What about ol' Moe laughing on the sidelines about us getting shellshocked by Clemson in 2003?

[uscballer101]

Well, no point living in the past anyways, we have spurrier and we know what kind of program he is running and what type of players he will bring in...

[Neo]

As a fan, I found fault with Lou in regards to two players: Watson and Summers. Watson is pretty obvious, and that situation resolved itself. With Summers, my only real beef is how Lou allowed him back on the team this summer.

My understanding, and admittedly it is sketchy at best, is that Summers along with several others were kicked off the team for the duration of Summer term, were not allowed to use team facilities, were not allowed to practice with teammates, and were not allowed to lift/exercise with teammates. Lou was very vocal and stated PUBLICLY, said players would not be allowed back on the team UNLESS they passed a pre-season physical and met other pre-set requirements. Again, this was not an internal affair, LOU made this public...pass the physical as proof to your committment to your teammates that you've undergone the same off-season rigors as they have, or your off...PERIOD.

Well, Summers shows up...fails physical one. Now, Lou (again my opinion) backtracks in stating that he never intended this to be a one-and-done deal. On to physical number two...FAILS. Again, not only is this not a "one-and-done" deal...Meat now has up until the first game of the season (or the end of fall practice) to pass the physical. I believe he passed on his third attempt, though this was never reported?!?

Even then I would not have a problem with Holtz, he'd only be following other coaches in the league in giving special treatments to special players. But, Lou screwed the pooch in two ways. One, he made it from the start a public affair (publicly called Summers out, stated how this damaged the "team", etc.). And, more importantly, Two he held himself out from the get-go as a NO-NONSENSE, ROUGH AND TUMBLE, OLD SCHOOL, DISCIPLINARIAN!

Secondly, you'd almost expect this behavior from others...but when you yourself partake in this type of behavior...especially when your career seems to built on the foundations of being an old-school disciplinarian...well...
the whole situation rings a bit hollow.

Other than that, I really don't think you can fault him for recruiting. He may have taken a few unwarranted risks, but literally every coach in the SEC...including Richt (Odel Thurman) and Spurrier (Jacquez Green)...have done so from time to time. Nor can you blame him entirely for the fight. Nor can you blame him for the drug use, quick name one program that has not had at least two players involved in drug use "scandals" these past few years (maybe Vandy...maybe). He should shoulder some of the blame, but not all.

I really only think he can be blamed for his doing is Watson and Summers. Even then his motives may have been pure, but honestly, if you talk the talk (discipline, hard-line, etc.) you better be prepared to walk the walk (no third chances, fourth chances, etc.)

But again, my opinion. :cool:

[Neo]

Oh well..... :cool:

[JBryant12]

Summers is a good guy he just came from a rough backgoround and didn't have the will power to seperate himself from some of his thug friends.....

[Demandbetter]

I think with the recent arrests on the football team and players having been kicked off the team, we are seeing the results of Lou Holtz's influence on a program. He seems to leave every program under suspicion by the NCAA and allows his star players to get away with "murder". How many chances did Derek Watson get before he was finally kicked off the team. Also, I wonder how many questionable or illegal things he did behind closed doors, away from the media cameras and microphones, that Lou knew about but covered up. I'm glad we finally have a coach who can not only coach this game in the 21st century but will instill discipline as well. Spurrier certainly has a large mess on his hands and he should be crowned a genius if he can pull out a winning season with everything going on in Columbia. I certainly do not envy him right now but I sure admire him for doing the right things early. Bart Wright, of the Greenville News, wrote an article about this same subject. If you're interested, please follow the link below. Good luck Steve and Go Gamecocks!

http://greenvilleonline.com/news/sports/2005/03/08/2005030860255.htm

[Payindews]

That was a great article. I love the part "the gift that keeps on giving". There are many questions now about the way Lou handled the program with all these arrests and discipline issues popping up. I think 6 wins will be embraced by Gamecock fans..where as before we were hoping for a 8 or 9 win season.

[Neo]

That was a great article. I love the part "the gift that keeps on giving". There are many questions now about the way Lou handled the program with all these arrests and discipline issues popping up. I think 6 wins will be embraced by Gamecock fans..where as before we were hoping for a 8 or 9 win season.

We will be fine guys. Don't worry. The dissmissal of Summers, Thompson and possibly Mainord just makes more room for Spurrier's recruits.

As I stated before, Summers and Thompson didn't do much of anything last year. :cool:

[GTmorris1970]

We will be fine guys. Don't worry. The dissmissal of Summers, Thompson and possibly Mainord just makes more room for Spurrier's recruits.

As I stated before, Summers and Thompson didn't do much of anything last year. :cool:

Exactly. I am not sure how much Summers would have played anyway. Does not seem like the Spurrier type back to me like Boyd does. As he said in a recent interview, "I dont think we are going to miss these players one bit come September." :)

[GTmorris1970]

On one other note. My feelings on this are that maybe Holtz cannot be held responsible for the players actions, but it is his responsibility to make THEM be responsible for their actions. Just like anything else in adult life. That is the thing he could have done to help them the most IMO. We are responsible for what we do, and noone else. But we also have rules to live by. If you don't go by the rules, you get punished. Simple as that. Sounds like some were punished, but the golden boys could do whatever they want. That will cause you to lose games and eventually get you fired.

[SPURED]

sorry to bring back an old post, but i have something to say. i love Lou for almost everything that he has done at USC. he made us competitive, brought good players in, changed the way alot of USC fans viewed our team. but to me it seems like his special treatment towards certain players really divided our team. the same thing happend to my high school baseball team. i would rather have a team of Ryan Brewer's and Phil Petty's two guys that were good athletes and also had the personality to go along with that. than a team of Summers and Watsins' who are phenominal athletes but lack the personality and mental strength to be great. i will never forget watching Brewer in the outback bowls. his heart and dedication to winning really made me proud to be a gamecock fan. i just hope that spurrier can bring in a few Brewer/Petty like players to make up for the thugs that we do get.

[drkralc]

You shouldnt listen to what a Charleston newspaper has to say anyways, nothing good has ever come out of Charleston...its a hellhole
Yeah, and Georgetown is Utopia!...?