Why Bama & The CF World Hates UT?

[Neo]

This was posted at another site and some of it really makes you wonder.

"You Tennessee fans just don't get it--DO YOU HAVE ANY CLUE WHY SOOOOOO MANY DISPARAGING STORIES HAVE SURFACED ABOUT PHIL AND UT OVER THE YEARS??

Hint: It ain't because you are winning with a clean program.

Name one other program, besides Colorado where there have been so many negative stories brewing about the coach, the methods and the recruiting....hmmm....I'll give you another hint....NONE! Can you even fathom why people across the country, mainstream media and fans alike think you guys are dirty? Because negative stories are bleeding from your program like an open artery! Here's the littany of UT stories:

1. Fulmer accused of conspiring to bring down Alabama's football program by taping conversation with "dirty" 'Bama booster. Amateur super sleuth Fulmer provides wired evidence to the NCAA to be used in sanctions against the school. Fulmer was quoted as saying that he was "tired" of watching Alabama consistently cheat at recruiting and decided he needed to do something about it. Fulmer's actions were less than noble and more akin to fulfilling a personal vendetta.

2. Linda Bensel-Meyers was a tenured English professor and supervisor of tutoring programs at the University of Tennessee in 1999 when she went public with information that tutors at the school's Athletic Assistance Center were running a plagiarism mill to provide the athletes with bogus classwork.

As word of the scandal spread, instead of addressing the charges and doing everything necessary to restore the integrity of the university's academic program, the administrators formed a powerful defensive line to protect the athletics department.

They sealed the student academic files, reassigned Bensel-Meyers' administrative responsibilities to others, tampered with her computer files, ridiculed her and banished her to a basement office.

The professor claims to have had her life threatened indirectly by Fulmer and others and actually feared for her life, so much so that the FBI stepped in to investigate the allegations and provide protection.

3. There have been countless sexual harassment and rape charges against players under Fulmer and charges of cover ups and in some instances claims of wrongful terminations and harassment by Fulmer himself. I believe there was a female student assistant working in some capacity under Fulmer who alleged sexual harassment against Fulmer, and who claimed she was threatened physically against speaking out.

4. The players under Fulmer have proven time and time again that they are truly some of the foulest scum to have ever donned a uniform. And you can say what you like, but players take their cue from the top. When a program is foul, the players emerging from the meat grinder are anything but saints. Through all the payoffs and wrist slapping, these players have been the worst of the lot:

Leonard Little--Killed a woman while drunk driving.

Travis Henry--Attempted rape against a 15 yr old girl.

Jamal Lewis--charged with trying to traffic 5 kilos of cocaine.

Dwayne Goodrich--Hit and run, resulting in the deaths of two people...sentenced to 7 yrs in prison.

The list goes on and on...

5. Accusations of paying players at the behest of Fulmer have swirled around the UT program ever since Tee Martin decided to speak out about the subject. The whispers haven't stopped since.

6. Graduation rates have traditionally been woeful under Fulmer in the SEC. I will admit that they are improving, but after years of being called out and mentioned. Fulmer has repeatedly shown that he doesn't care about the player, only the production.

Anyways, there are other stories out there. All you have to do to see them is do a Google Search using the key words, "University of Tennessee athletic scandals" or "Phil Fulmer sexual harassment" or "Phil Fulmer scandals" and you will see them. Isn't it sad that you don't have to dig very deep under the underbelly of college athletics to see UCheat surface mighty quick. What does it say about a program that they are synonomous with scandals--from the University President on down?? Also, take a look at "FindLaw's Tarnished Twenty" and guess what...UT is listed there for scandal and graduation rates. Pathetic. Again, I cannot think of another school aside from Colorado whose name is linked so solidly with scandals, and you Vol fans continue to turn a blind eye. I guess as long as you are winning it dudn't really matter now, does it?"

[oregon_vol_fan]

This was posted at another site and some of it really makes you wonder.

"You Tennessee fans just don't get it--DO YOU HAVE ANY CLUE WHY SOOOOOO MANY DISPARAGING STORIES HAVE SURFACED ABOUT PHIL AND UT OVER THE YEARS??

Hint: It ain't because you are winning with a clean program.

Name one other program, besides Colorado where there have been so many negative stories brewing about the coach, the methods and the recruiting....hmmm....I'll give you another hint....NONE! Can you even fathom why people across the country, mainstream media and fans alike think you guys are dirty? Because negative stories are bleeding from your program like an open artery! Here's the littany of UT stories:

1. Fulmer accused of conspiring to bring down Alabama's football program by taping conversation with "dirty" 'Bama booster. Amateur super sleuth Fulmer provides wired evidence to the NCAA to be used in sanctions against the school. Fulmer was quoted as saying that he was "tired" of watching Alabama consistently cheat at recruiting and decided he needed to do something about it. Fulmer's actions were less than noble and more akin to fulfilling a personal vendetta.

2. Linda Bensel-Meyers was a tenured English professor and supervisor of tutoring programs at the University of Tennessee in 1999 when she went public with information that tutors at the school's Athletic Assistance Center were running a plagiarism mill to provide the athletes with bogus classwork.

As word of the scandal spread, instead of addressing the charges and doing everything necessary to restore the integrity of the university's academic program, the administrators formed a powerful defensive line to protect the athletics department.

They sealed the student academic files, reassigned Bensel-Meyers' administrative responsibilities to others, tampered with her computer files, ridiculed her and banished her to a basement office.

The professor claims to have had her life threatened indirectly by Fulmer and others and actually feared for her life, so much so that the FBI stepped in to investigate the allegations and provide protection.

3. There have been countless sexual harassment and rape charges against players under Fulmer and charges of cover ups and in some instances claims of wrongful terminations and harassment by Fulmer himself. I believe there was a female student assistant working in some capacity under Fulmer who alleged sexual harassment against Fulmer, and who claimed she was threatened physically against speaking out.

4. The players under Fulmer have proven time and time again that they are truly some of the foulest scum to have ever donned a uniform. And you can say what you like, but players take their cue from the top. When a program is foul, the players emerging from the meat grinder are anything but saints. Through all the payoffs and wrist slapping, these players have been the worst of the lot:

Leonard Little--Killed a woman while drunk driving.

Travis Henry--Attempted rape against a 15 yr old girl.

Jamal Lewis--charged with trying to traffic 5 kilos of cocaine.

Dwayne Goodrich--Hit and run, resulting in the deaths of two people...sentenced to 7 yrs in prison.

The list goes on and on...

5. Accusations of paying players at the behest of Fulmer have swirled around the UT program ever since Tee Martin decided to speak out about the subject. The whispers haven't stopped since.

6. Graduation rates have traditionally been woeful under Fulmer in the SEC. I will admit that they are improving, but after years of being called out and mentioned. Fulmer has repeatedly shown that he doesn't care about the player, only the production.

Anyways, there are other stories out there. All you have to do to see them is do a Google Search using the key words, "University of Tennessee athletic scandals" or "Phil Fulmer sexual harassment" or "Phil Fulmer scandals" and you will see them. Isn't it sad that you don't have to dig very deep under the underbelly of college athletics to see UCheat surface mighty quick. What does it say about a program that they are synonomous with scandals--from the University President on down?? Also, take a look at "FindLaw's Tarnished Twenty" and guess what...UT is listed there for scandal and graduation rates. Pathetic. Again, I cannot think of another school aside from Colorado whose name is linked so solidly with scandals, and you Vol fans continue to turn a blind eye. I guess as long as you are winning it dudn't really matter now, does it?"

The one constant throughout your thread is accusations, or alleged, etc. The NCAA cleared UT of the academic violations mentione in #2 after an on campus investigation. Nothing in this thread, other than the players convictions and jail times, has been proven ANYWHERE. As for other programs that are dirtier that Tennessee, what about Ohio State?

Keep lobbing these accusations at Knoxville. None of them have been proven true and none of them will be. It's sad that so many people are more interested in Tennessee's program than their own.

[Neo]

I didn't write it. I just thought it was a vision through a different eye.

[oregon_vol_fan]

OK, fair enough. You didn't write it.

I do find it interesting that 'Bama fans always neglect to mention that their booster paid Albert Means $150,000 to attend Alabama. The Tide got put on probation because they cheated, plain and simple.

As a side note, how embarassing must it be to cheat in recruiting and STILL lose to Tennessee 10 out of the last 11 years? I'd cover my head with a paper bag if I was a 'Bama fan.

[Neo]

OK, fair enough. You didn't write it.

I do find it interesting that 'Bama fans always neglect to mention that their booster paid Albert Means $150,000 to attend Alabama. The Tide got put on probation because they cheated, plain and simple.

As a side note, how embarassing must it be to cheat in recruiting and STILL lose to Tennessee 10 out of the last 11 years? I'd cover my head with a paper bag if I was a 'Bama fan.

I won't comp to that, but the "paper bag" remark was a little funny.

[Neo]

I'm one of those types that likes to post multiple views on one subject. Ya know?

[Volnooga]

Well than, I'm still waiting on your "Phil runs a clean Program" point of view post as I have yet to see it Del.

[Neo]

Well than, I'm still waiting on your "Phil runs a clean Program" point of view post as I have yet to see it Del.

You gotta give me at least a min dude. :)


This is another post that I have found.


"I actually like Phil, he's a grad of the school he coaches, loves the Univ, was a pretty good player, his daughter always walks to midfield to shake hands with the opposing coach, he works very hard, though is very shady, how many other college coaches aren't shady?

The point is, everyone cheats. Tenn does it. I think they are dirty, though I do like Fulmer, besides the fact that he has stolen Albert Haynes worth, eric young, the Ath last year out of the upstate. He steals alot of talent but I think he is a good coach who loves his Univ."

[bamagirl]

I'm a Bama fan, and very proud of it! Will wear my crimson & white til the day I die, can u say the same for ur team? I will admit too, that yes in the past Bama has made mistakes, but so has everyone else. At least when Bama is accused of NCAA violations we allow the NCAA to look at any & all records concerning said violations instead of sealing our records. Talk about looking guilty! If UcheaT wasn't doing anything wrong y try to cover it up?

[oregon_vol_fan]

Tennessee has NCAA investigators on campus during the investigation into academic fraud allegations. They were cleared. Tennessee had nothing to hide and the NCAA cleared them. NO VIOLATIONS. How often does a school get out of an NCAA investigation with NO VIOLATIONS? Not very often.

'Bama paid a recruit, Fulmer ratted them out, and 'Bama got put on probation. A Tennessee English professor accused the athletic department of fraud, and UT is cleared after an NCAA investigation.

Looks like 'Bama was the team with something to hide.

[Neo]

Tennessee has NCAA investigators on campus during the investigation into academic fraud allegations. They were cleared. Tennessee had nothing to hide and the NCAA cleared them. NO VIOLATIONS. How often does a school get out of an NCAA investigation with NO VIOLATIONS? Not very often.

'Bama paid a recruit, Fulmer ratted them out, and 'Bama got put on probation. A Tennessee English professor accused the athletic department of fraud, and UT is cleared after an NCAA investigation.

Looks like 'Bama was the team with something to hide.


Here's another view....

"What a shame that people will try to defame a good man like Philip Fulmer, in hopes that recruits will be scared away from Tennessee.

But these high school kids are smarter than you think."

[Volnooga]

Same thread... Get off the Digital Roost to find a different viewpoint. So far you've given us 2 Gamecock points of view.

[Neo]

Same thread... Get off the Digital Roost to find a different viewpoint. So far you've given us 2 Gamecock points of view.

Well...Give me more than a few mins deal?

[Volnooga]

alright, beat me to it. It looks like we frequent the same boards.

[Neo]

brb...Gimmie a little bit...

[volimhtown]

What a load of CRAP!!!!
ALL of it is simply allegations....if you are going to hate someone (or a school in this case) based on allegations, then that's on you...not the university. The biased author of this piece of garbage obviously is a Bama fan who hates Tennessee simply out of jealousy and for the reasons he/she mentioned as to why they didn't.
The author asks you to name some programs with a worse history (of allegations I'm presuming) and I can name several just off the top of my head: Nebraska has a LENGTHY questionable history, Miami (author....oh, yeah!), Oklahoma under Switzer, Texas A&M and Miss St under Jackie Sherrill, etc.....that's just to name a few!!!!
Of the players that the author mentioned, all incidents happened after they left the Vol football program (Travis Henry I'm not sure about, but I would have to believe that he was never convicted or found guilty as he is still playing today!). In addition, I'm 110% positive that we could make a lengthy list of players from EVERY major college that aren't good citizens. This was simply an attack from an ignorant and non-intelligible rival fan as it has NO SUBSTANCE!!!
As a Vol fan, I understand that because of the Vols' success, it makes you a target. I'm ok with that. I don't want Bama fans or Gator fans to like the Vols. I am also not one of these dillusional Vol fans who believe the program is completely innocent and clean. ALL major Div 1-A football programs are inherantly dirty and break the rules....you're fooling yourself if you believe otherwise. There's too much money involved for there not to be slime everywhere. That being said, I don't believe Tennessee has any more skeletons in their closet as the next school. At least until somebody PROVES otherwise!!!

[bamagirl]

U can not sit back and say that UcheaT is a 100% clean program. Phillip Fulmaer has performed just as many violations as anybody else, the difference is he is too busy lying to the NCAA about other programs in exchange for amnesty. Besides if he is so squeaky clean, y was he too chicken to show up at media days in B'ham just to avoid a subpeona that has gotten to him anyway? Beware, and forewarned, and last but certainly not least remember u come to Title-town in 2005. Or wait, are they just gonna cancel that game cause phat a$$ is still afraid even though the trial is set for June '05?

[carolinavol]

1. I hope Fulmer was conspiring to bring down a proven player buying scheme. Think of it this way, if you are a parent of a child being recruited to play college football, would you not want to know if your childs HS coach was on the take by rogue boosters to guide your kid to a school regardless of his best interests. Further, if you were a college coach, and your biggest rival was coming into your state and cheating by buying of HS coaches, would you not complain and work to have it corrected? This is no different than if you were a business owner whose main competition is beating you silly, about to put you out of business through illegally importing goods. I know in that case I'd be on the phone with the FBI in a heartbeat. Third, Donnan has gone on record (ESPNnews TV) on segment that I saw myself stating that Fulmer was not the only SEC coach to complain to the NCAA, he admitted he himself along with other SEC coaches did the same, and that Fulmer was getting criticized for doing the right thing that many others also did.

2. Academic standards were pi$$ poor at UT for some of these athletes, and needed to be cleaned up (i was enrolled as a student throughout this scandal), but also remember that LBN was a loony professor out for some publicity who utilized stolen transcripts to make her "case". Does this mean the standards weren't bad? No, but one has to question the motives of a professor who claims the "best interests of the students" when she abuses her power as an academic advisor and illegally accesses and PUBLICIZES student transcripts without their knowlege. This story had legs, was true to an extent, and I know that a lot of effort at UT was done in light of this to correct the problem (ill admit that it wasnt enough). UT does get unfairly nailed on this topic however, name an SEC school not located in Nashville that would be clean as a whistle if some rogue prof decided to start digging with unlimited access.

3. Great, she has one heck of a lawsuit if she can prove it. Now what exactly does this have to do with UT beating its opponents on a regular basis?
....To be continued

[JBryant12]

Titletown=Green Bay

[dudeman0501]

U can not sit back and say that UcheaT is a 100% clean program. Phillip Fulmaer has performed just as many violations as anybody else, the difference is he is too busy lying to the NCAA about other programs in exchange for amnesty.

Show me. Where are these violations?

[Hardie]

LOL @ ever being embarrassed to be an Alabama fan. Thats just crazy, Alabama has messed up in the past , the past 10 yrs probably more so than ever but that dont over shadow the tradition and the greatness we built up over the years and are on track to getting back now. Alabama is still at the to of the college football world and everyone else is tryin to get just a lil piece of what Alabama is. I seem to remember a time when Tennessee couldnt buy a win over Alabama but how quickly you forgot about that eh? We have 12 national titles , thats more than ANY SEC school even your beloved Tennessee Vols. We have more confrense titles than any other SEC school. I admit we have messed up in the past but you can not deny how special Alabama is ... btw where would the SEC be without Alabama ? Think about that one.

[carolinavol]

3. cont, this post came from TI Gamecock forum if im not mistaken, so get whoever posted originally to document the actual name and incident so it can properly be scrutinized. If thats provided, then we know that a female who claims sexual harassment against a high profile coach with deep pockets would never actually lie about it (sarcasm/off).

4. Ummm, these all happened while none of these player were enrolled at UT. Frankly, this just goes to show how disciplined and straightforward a program UT is rather than the opposite. If these players all have a habit of making decisions that show immaturity, lack of judgement, and or violence and criminal activity, it shows that this pattern was halted during their time in K-ville. Congrats to our coaching staff for keeping these 'hoodlums' in line during their stay. Plus, the TH attempted rape? Never heard of that, last I checked that would carry some prison time in any state, and prosecutors love to prosecute high profile cases. TH is in Buffalo, playing for the Bills, and the fact that he is not in prison leads one to assume that either the allegations did not happen/ or there simply was not enough evidence to substantiate pursuing criminal charges. Even in a civil manner where the burden of proof is lower, I dont think ive heard of TH being sued over this.

5. These have been repeatedly investigated, and UT has been cleared. Oh, I forgot, UT has a secret deal with the NCAA that lets them buy players at will just so long as UT provides evidence to bring down the university of alabama (tinfoil hat/off).

6. Graduation Rates? yes, big problem. Admitted they are improving. But lets get real, what college football fan truly cares about graduation rates other than the ones just looking to throw stones at an opponent? And I would suggest that the only ones to really have crediblity in this dept are fans of teams named bluedevils or commodores, yes all 7 of them.

[Neo]

alright, beat me to it. It looks like we frequent the same boards.

Nooga,

I have been all over man. I'm going to let you find a quote. Not trying to be a smart butt, but it's hard to find posts defending him. That's why I jumped at those on the USC boards.

[volimhtown]

LOL @ ever being embarrassed to be an Alabama fan. Thats just crazy, Alabama has messed up in the past , the past 10 yrs probably more so than ever but that dont over shadow the tradition and the greatness we built up over the years and are on track to getting back now. Alabama is still at the to of the college football world and everyone else is tryin to get just a lil piece of what Alabama is. I seem to remember a time when Tennessee couldnt buy a win over Alabama but how quickly you forgot about that eh? We have 12 national titles , thats more than ANY SEC school even your beloved Tennessee Vols. We have more confrense titles than any other SEC school. I admit we have messed up in the past but you can not deny how special Alabama is ... btw where would the SEC be without Alabama ? Think about that one.
__________________
2004 SEC Pick'ems National Champion
What are you talking about or responding to???

[volimhtown]

Never mind....you're responding to Oregon Vol!!!

[oregon_vol_fan]

Why does Bama hate UT so much? Two VERY simple reasons...

1.) Tennessee has beaten 'Bama 10 out of the last 11 years.
2.) Even when Alabama pays recruits to come there, they STILL can't beat Tennessee.

I guess if my favorite team was getting beaten like a red-headed step child every year I'd hate the team that was beating them too.

[carolinavol]

Finally, yes, a lot on this from me, but I am fed up with simple minded accusations of cheating, fraud, etc. that are not based on any logic or rationale. For the most part, these allegations come from a small minority of an otherwise great fanbase headquartered in Tuscaloosa, and for some reason get echoed a lot lately out of Columbia. I dont think it is coincidental that the ones screaming "UT cheats" the loudest are some of the ones who have been less than competitive against UT in the past. This is not a shot against the UA or USC programs, both are on the verge of being real contenders in this league, and ill be willing to bet that once both end up in Atlanta before New Years, UT cheating allegations will not be very prevalent. So yes, clearly frustration plays a big role in my opinion as to why UT is hated. Remember the old saying, success breeds contempt, and this is clearly one of those situations in my opinion. Look at the Atlanta Braves, how many people outside of the South despised the Braves during their dominant run? Same situation here.

[volimhtown]

Remember the old saying, success breeds contempt, and this is clearly one of those situations in my opinion.
That's all this is....well put, Carolina!!!

[carolinavol]

That's all this is....well put, Carolina!!!

Thanks, glad at least one line was clear throughout my ramblings. With all of these allegations flying around, and they have been flying for years now, it simply begs the question as to "why has nothing come from all of the 'violations' as in NCAA sanctions. Now Bama fans will tell you that Fulmer has the NCAA, FBI, UN, etc bought off through a money laundering scheme associated with the UN Oil for Food Scandal. But another good saying to live by is that a solution to a problem lies normally with the simplest solution or explanation. In this case, these allegations have been investigated by the NCAA, as well as a two year old lawsuit by an overrated ambulance chaser out of Alabama utilizing the deposition and investigation powers of a court system, and nothing sticks. Teflon or not, if something were there, UT would be nailed, or we would AT LEAST KNOW ABOUT it probably through Finebaum and Gallion.

Further, a Coach turning in another school for cheating, does not in and of itself constitute cheating, it implies integrity, and so far Gallion and his ilk have done nothing but show the integrity of Fulmer.

[Neo]

That's all this is....well put, Carolina!!!

I'm not picking on ya VolTown so don't take this the wrong way.

It's just kinda funny watching you go off. You are so passioniate about it. I've noticed lately that we have been seeing eye to eye. (Cutcliffe) :)

[volimhtown]

I'm not picking on ya VolTown so don't take this the wrong way.

It's just kinda funny watching you go off. You are so passioniate about it. I've noticed lately that we have been seeing eye to eye. (Cutcliffe)
Why would I consider that picking on me?? That's cool....we aren't always going to agree on everything, though. You for one know, that if I disagree with a post, I'm going to let you know, right???? :D

[Neo]

Why would I consider that picking on me?? That's cool....we aren't always going to agree on everything, though. You for one know, that if I disagree with a post, I'm going to let you know, right???? :D

Yeah! I know people are never going to agree all of the time. :)

It's just rather humorous at time...snicker

[Neo]

I will admit one thing. It is a lot nicer now that it's a lot more diverse. Ya know?/?

[Neo]

Be weary weary qwiet. I'm hunting wabbits!

[BAMA NATE]

Its disgusting threads like these that make me sorry I was'nt here earlier today! :mad:

I saw one post by volimhtown that said Alabama hates UT out of jealousy. How much more stupid can you get? :rolleyes:

Do you even know a thing about Bama's program. It is far surperior to Tennessee's having a lot more tradition and a lot more of just about anything from NC's to Bowl Appearences and Bowl wins and we also lead the series by several games!

[carolinavol]

Bama Nate,
Good opinion. Bama does have a great tradition, large amount of NC's, etc. Princeton and Yale have almost twice the amount of championships than Alabama, but I certainly wouldn't want to be a fan of those two teams today. I'd be willing to bet that football fans (if you get past the ivy league sense of entitlement) from those two schools are probably envious of other football programs with much less claim to National Titles. Yes, there certainly is a sense of resentment (by SOME, a very distinct and vocal minority) or tide fans. If this is not the case Nate, then please explain the unhealthy obsession of Tide fans to fabricate story after story that is clearly false, in an effort to discredit UT's rightfully earned successes. You dont see UT fans throwing stones at anyone (unless they really are cheating and we have real proof).

To clarify, the whole point is that the ones from Bama and elsewhere who are not envious, have faith in their programs, and truly enjoy them as I do mine, will attempt to build up their own programs, rather than throw stones at others in a sense of resentment due to a perception of failure about their own programs.

[BAMA NATE]

First I want to thank you for staying respectful in your post.

First of all, Princeton and Yale can't rightfully claim many of those titles since they claim half of those back in the 1800's when you only played two or three games so no. An Ivy League school can't hold claim to such a number.

I did'nt catch what you meant by obsession. I won't even bring up the case where the NCAA ignored violations at UT to go after Bama. That made me sick! Thats one case where the NCAA cheated!

Oh, now I see.

Alabama had every right to throw stones when the NCAA let y'all off easy to go after us. Y'all told on us. So who exactly is throwing stones?

[Neo]

First of all, Princeton and Yale can't rightfully claim many of those titles since they claim half of those back in the 1800's when you only played two or three games so no. An Ivy League school can't hold claim to such a number.

Why can't they? It's just like Bama claims all of their titles. As for them playing 3-4 games. That's how many they played back then. Think about it, not that long ago, college football seasons were 10 games long.

Remember back in 1972, the NFL played 14 games. Currently they play 16.

[allaboutavol]

MOMMY! UT PULLED MY HAIR!!!!! WELL BAMA IS PICKING ON ME!!!! Do you hear yourselves? Why can't we just say that Bama hates UT because its UT. I mean, little secret here, Bama has ALWAYS hated UT, and another secret, UT hasn't ever cared too much for Bama either, its like an unwritten rule, Crimson and Orange clash. Admittedly I understand the bitterness over the Phil tattling thing, and while I can see the whole paybacks are hell theory in the works here, trust me when I tell you, being a UT fan is awesome, love it, being a UT fan when every other teams fans want to kick your butt, not so much. Get what I am saying? ;)

[BamaFan425]

Hell I love Alabama and UT's rivalry. It is just some fans ruin it for me. They just push and push at me (I live in TN) 24/7 and I am just gonna snap some day. My best friend is a UT fan and he can carry on an intelligent football convo with me. Now this other guy he will just come in Bama sucks Bama this and he never mentions UT. He seems more concerned about Bama than UT. All in All I "hate" UT. Hate in a rivalry way. And for those few fans every college has. I really hate them.

[carolinavol]

First I want to thank you for staying respectful in your post.

First of all, Princeton and Yale can't rightfully claim many of those titles since they claim half of those back in the 1800's when you only played two or three games so no. An Ivy League school can't hold claim to such a number.

I did'nt catch what you meant by obsession. I won't even bring up the case where the NCAA ignored violations at UT to go after Bama. That made me sick! Thats one case where the NCAA cheated!

Oh, now I see.

Alabama had every right to throw stones when the NCAA let y'all off easy to go after us. Y'all told on us. So who exactly is throwing stones?

I always try to be respectful, you can't learn anything new in a flame war, and someone tossing around jabs on a message board is lacking something that I have, because it doesn't really do anything for me.

With regards to obsession, see Tommy Gallion, Finebaum, the idiot writer at the rivals.com site, etc. They are literally obsessed to a degree that should constitute mental illness in trying to dig up something that could bring down Tennessee football. Gallion and his ilk, have had well over a year to investigate anything he sees fit, and well, they have nothing, nothing but proving what everyone already knows, Fulmer joined with other SEC coaches in exposing a dirty player buying scheme. Yet, with all this time and lack of anything to support any kind of wrongdoing by UT, some Bama fans, and overrated media hosts desperate for ratings continue to buy into the great hope that Gallion will save Bama football by destroying Tennessee football. The whole thing is silly, and I truly pity the 'fans' in Alabama who think this way.
And where did the NCAA let us off easy? There were a lot of allegations thrown around, but if im not mistaken, none of those allegations were supported by any proof, thus, case closed. Trust me, if UT has a Logan Young handing out thousands of dollars to high school coaches in return for recruiting favors, then we wouldnt and absolutely should not get off.

[volimhtown]

I saw one post by volimhtown that said Alabama hates UT out of jealousy. How much more stupid can you get?

Do you even know a thing about Bama's program. It is far surperior to Tennessee's having a lot more tradition and a lot more of just about anything from NC's to Bowl Appearences and Bowl wins and we also lead the series by several games!
Chill out, dude!!!! Don't take things so personally!!! Yes, Bama has a great HISTORY... the best in college football!! I have the utmost respect for Bama's HISTORY!!! There... I said it...are you happy??? I realize that TODAY doesn't matter to Bama fans...I appologize...sometimes I forget. It's just confusing....talking to fans of 11 schools about today, I forget that I'm being disrespectful if I don't mention Bama's long and glorious past!!! Well, Nate....if I'm so off-based with my feelings as to why Bama fan is SOOOOO infatuated with the goings-on in Knoxville, and it has nothing to do with 11 out of 12, then please explain!!!

[Ironica]

Once again I screwed up the quote thing - this was a reply to DeLoreanfan1's comment about searching but not finding a post that was a positive description of Fulmer/UT - Sooner or later I'll get this figured out : )

How do you prove a negative (e.g. that these things didn't happen)? The nature of these forums is to assert; to go on the offense. Would you expect to find a post that details all the positives that any coach or program delivered? Until they start publishing stories in the media that do so and fans are so moved to reflect on these accomplishments; you will not see such posts. No shortage of rants though.

Nature of the beast. We're all junior Finebaum's :D

[Ironica]

Hell I love Alabama and UT's rivalry. It is just some fans ruin it for me. They just push and push at me (I live in TN) 24/7 and I am just gonna snap some day. My best friend is a UT fan and he can carry on an intelligent football convo with me. Now this other guy he will just come in Bama sucks Bama this and he never mentions UT. He seems more concerned about Bama than UT. All in All I "hate" UT. Hate in a rivalry way. And for those few fans every college has. I really hate them.
BamaFan425 - I can totally relate. I live in Bham and am a Vol fan - Public Enemy #1. It's the same way here. Most Bama fans are great; but the few that give Bama fans a bad name take it to an extreme. At times it's hard to ignore and easy to generalize their behavior to the whole fan base. The worst thing about all this is that a great rivalry is being tainted by both sides. Football hate should be releshed for competition on the field. Both sides need to chill out and focus on the hate that really matters : )

[Ironica]

Attached is a letter that Casey Clausen submitted to the Knoxville paper. Interesting considering he was not always a fan favorite. Everyone of the SEC schools has this type of story. Why not look at the positive and be glad we get to see the best CFB in the country year in and out.

Sorry about the editing. The original was a PDF file to big for an attachment. The copy and paste resulted in some format issues.

[Neo]

Once again I screwed up the quote thing - this was a reply to DeLoreanfan1's comment about searching but not finding a post that was a positive description of Fulmer/UT - Sooner or later I'll get this figured out : )

How do you prove a negative (e.g. that these things didn't happen)? The nature of these forums is to assert; to go on the offense. Would you expect to find a post that details all the positives that any coach or program delivered? Until they start publishing stories in the media that do so and fans are so moved to reflect on these accomplishments; you will not see such posts. No shortage of rants though.

Nature of the beast. We're all junior Finebaum's :D

That's probably true. I did honestly look for one.:)

[Neo]

This is my opinion. It was taken from a previous post of mine:

"In that thread, we were discussing allegations of the Auburn program. I haven't been "openly" vocal about Tennessee that bad now. Some things that have occurred during Fulmer's watch has caused me to raise an eyebrow or two every now and then, but that doesn't translate into me thinking that they are breaking the rules all the time.

One thing I do know for certain is that Spurrier runs a clean ship. He's so clean, when he walks he squeaks. LOL! No where in the NCAA will you find violations committed by SOS in his coaching history.

The reason I scrutinize Tennessee a lot closer is because it seems like trouble follows Mr. Fulmer everywhere. Most of it is beyond his control, but sometimes it makes me really wonder. Everytime I turn around, it's like there's new allegations or a new scandal. Is anyone really that lucky so to speak?

Like the Tee Martin incident. I believe in my heart that Fulmer helped blow that one over. I mean, Martin admitted taking the money and he had the cleared checks as evidence. What more do you need? Now as for this stuff between UT and Bama. I have made my opinion WIDELY known and I will make it known here too.

"You cannot blame UT or Phillip Fulmer for the infractions that Alabama committed. It's Bama's responsibility to follow the rules, not UT's. To be honest, coaches shouldn't have to police other coaches. They all need to follow the rules.

As for the USC and UT comparisions. How many "incidents" or such have occurred at USC? How many times have we been investigated? How many times have we had people claiming that we were paying players? See what I'm getting at? We pride ourselves in not having all of that "Brew ha ha" that most other big schools have. To my knowledge, we have never "bought" players to win.

Personally, I don't have a problem with UT per say. They have never screwed me over directly, but I'm not fond of their recruiting practices to get recruits. For instance;

I know Robert Ayers personally. He was telling me that Mr. Fulmer told him that USC was going on probation that year and that's what convinced him to sign with UT. That crap isn't called for ya know? If Mr. Fulmer would have said that they were being investigated, that's one thing, but Mr. Fulmer sat there and lied to the man in his face."

[Saw31]

For a little perspective.

Infractions Database (https://goomer.ncaa.org/dev60cgi/rwcgi60?p_mostinf)

It would seem that Tennessee and Alabama do not have the history that many others do when it comes to "cheating". No surprise to me who was first, but I was a little surprised about some of the other top offenders. I'm sure some of these infractions go a ways back and may not be relevant today. This also includes more than football.

[Volnooga]

Interesting... USC has one more than UT and UA has 2 more. But still, 4, 3, and 2 aren't too bad.

[Neo]

Interesting... USC has one more than UT and UA has 2 more. But still, 4, 3, and 2 aren't too bad.

Yeah...one of those was for football back in 1967.

The other two are for basketball.

[Volnooga]

OK, Looking at UT's Infractions, both were Football and both were before CPF started as a head coach.

1986 - Improper entertainment, lodging and transportation; extra benefits; eligibility; certification of compliance. (Free Hotel Rooms to Student Athletes)

1991 - IMPERMISSIBLE RECRUITING: arrangement for an airline ticket on credit to a prospective student-athlete; improper off-campus contacts; recruitment of prospective student-athletes before completion of junior year; impermissible transportation. UNETHICAL CONDUCT. ERRONEOUS CERTIFICATION OF COMPLIANCE. (During the spring and summer of 1989, during the recruitment of a prospective student-athlete, a then assistant football coach arranged for the young man to receive a round-trip airline ticket on a credit basis from a Knoxville area travel agency in order for the young man to travel to the university's campus to attend the institution's summer football camp)

USC

Of USC Infraction only 1 is related to Football.

1967 - Improper financial aid; extra benefits; improper recruiting entertainment, lodging and transportation; tryouts; eligibility; improper administration of financial aid; outside fund. (1. In September 1965, a prospective student-athlete was admitted to the University contrary to the regular published entrance requirements of the institution. next Year - 1. During the college year, 1965-66, the University's then director of athletics (also head football coach) provided three student-athletes, all ineligible to receive institutional financial assistance, with cash, meal tickets and books from personal funds or from sources under his control.

2. During the college year, 1965-66, and continuing through the first semester of the 1966-67 college year, the educational expenses of a student-athlete were paid by a corporation upon which the student-athlete was neither naturally or legally dependent.

3. Institutional financial assistance awarded to student-athletes by the University of South Carolina was not administered by the institution's regular committee or agency responsible for awarding scholarships or grants-in-aid to students generally.)

UA

3 of 4 related to Football

2002 - Athletics representatives actively engaged in violations of recruiting and extra-benefit legislation with prospective student-athletes and provided impermissible recruiting inducements through high-school coaches. Numerous secondary violations.

1995 - AMATEURISM, EXTRA BENEFITS: $24,000 in impermissible banks loans made to a student-athlete; institution did not obtain the appropriate records. LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL in the investigation into and report of information regarding the amateur status of student-athletes. (REFLECTS CHANGES MADE BY INFRACTIONS APPEALS COMMITTEE.)

1964 - Improper recruiting contact

So ovber all I think we all run mostly clean programs for the most part and we just really like throwing mud at each other.

[Neo]

OK, Looking at UT's Infractions, both were Football and both were before CPF started as a head coach.

1986 - Improper entertainment, lodging and transportation; extra benefits; eligibility; certification of compliance. (Free Hotel Rooms to Student Athletes)

1991 - IMPERMISSIBLE RECRUITING: arrangement for an airline ticket on credit to a prospective student-athlete; improper off-campus contacts; recruitment of prospective student-athletes before completion of junior year; impermissible transportation. UNETHICAL CONDUCT. ERRONEOUS CERTIFICATION OF COMPLIANCE. (During the spring and summer of 1989, during the recruitment of a prospective student-athlete, a then assistant football coach arranged for the young man to receive a round-trip airline ticket on a credit basis from a Knoxville area travel agency in order for the young man to travel to the university's campus to attend the institution's summer football camp)

USC

Of USC Infraction only 1 is related to Football.

1967 - Improper financial aid; extra benefits; improper recruiting entertainment, lodging and transportation; tryouts; eligibility; improper administration of financial aid; outside fund. (1. In September 1965, a prospective student-athlete was admitted to the University contrary to the regular published entrance requirements of the institution. next Year - 1. During the college year, 1965-66, the University's then director of athletics (also head football coach) provided three student-athletes, all ineligible to receive institutional financial assistance, with cash, meal tickets and books from personal funds or from sources under his control.

2. During the college year, 1965-66, and continuing through the first semester of the 1966-67 college year, the educational expenses of a student-athlete were paid by a corporation upon which the student-athlete was neither naturally or legally dependent.

3. Institutional financial assistance awarded to student-athletes by the University of South Carolina was not administered by the institution's regular committee or agency responsible for awarding scholarships or grants-in-aid to students generally.)

UA

3 of 4 related to Football

2002 - Athletics representatives actively engaged in violations of recruiting and extra-benefit legislation with prospective student-athletes and provided impermissible recruiting inducements through high-school coaches. Numerous secondary violations.

1995 - AMATEURISM, EXTRA BENEFITS: $24,000 in impermissible banks loans made to a student-athlete; institution did not obtain the appropriate records. LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL in the investigation into and report of information regarding the amateur status of student-athletes. (REFLECTS CHANGES MADE BY INFRACTIONS APPEALS COMMITTEE.)

1964 - Improper recruiting contact

So ovber all I think we all run mostly clean programs for the most part and we just really like throwing mud at each other.

I can kinda see your point. The argument for USC is that we haven't had a major violation since 1967. That's 38 years! Now that's a clean program. :)

[Hardie]

Heres the thing , everyone is going to love their school and they are going to find things wrong with their rival schools. Allabout put it best when she said bama has always hated the vols and the vols have always hated bama. Thats just how it is. Alabama / Tenn is a huge rivalry specially in northern bama / lower tennessee. Naturally both sides are just going to hate each other and look for stuff to say and infractions to be had. Tennessee just delt us the first blow and got us good. Thing of it is Alabama is gettin back to where we are used to being and thats good every year and when that happens that will be good for not only us but for all the SEC and all of college football. It will make for a stronger confrense and maybe squeeze out some classic rival games with Tennessee / Auburn .. etc.

[GRASSHOPPER]

I Prefer Bama In The West Over Any Other! Auburn Being Second In The West On My List.

[volimhtown]

Heres the thing , everyone is going to love their school and they are going to find things wrong with their rival schools. Allabout put it best when she said bama has always hated the vols and the vols have always hated bama. Thats just how it is. Alabama / Tenn is a huge rivalry specially in northern bama / lower tennessee. Naturally both sides are just going to hate each other and look for stuff to say and infractions to be had. Tennessee just delt us the first blow and got us good. Thing of it is Alabama is gettin back to where we are used to being and thats good every year and when that happens that will be good for not only us but for all the SEC and all of college football. It will make for a stronger confrense and maybe squeeze out some classic rival games with Tennessee / Auburn .. etc.
Very well put......having Bama as a "force" in college football is good for college football and good for the SEC. Now, if you guys could beat us more than once a decade......hahahaha jk

[Neo]

Very well put......having Bama as a "force" in college football is good for college football and good for the SEC. Now, if you guys could beat us more than once a decade......hahahaha jk

....... :eek:

[GeauxTo]

I Prefer Bama In The West Over Any Other! Auburn Being Second In The West On My List.

Obviously, you've never experienced the real west where we have real bayous and real alligators...
;)

[Neo]

Obviously, you've never experienced the real west where we have real bayous and real alligators...
;)

Nope... :)

[CrimsonTide42]

Can you prove that Albert Means was paid $200,000. I do not believe you can.

[Neo]

Can you prove that Albert Means was paid $200,000. I do not believe you can.

<<Waving>>

I know I can't! LOL :)

[BAMA NATE]

Both of y'all just shut the hell up about LSU!!! :mad:

[tidentexas]

Hello all, Just found this board and noticed that just like on EVERY message board on the world wide web, there will always be a 10-er-cee fan bashing the TIDE. Here we a Cock preaching nothing but gospel, and some yahoo from UT has to bring up Bama!

I will say this: Until Logan Young is CONVICTED of the selling AM for $150K, then it never happened...As some other Vols have said in the post and 10K other PROVE IT! and proof is not the nc2a, it is a court of law...until then vol fans can stfu.

good day

[Neo]

Hello all, Just found this board and noticed that just like on EVERY message board on the world wide web, there will always be a 10-er-cee fan bashing the TIDE. Here we a Cock preaching nothing but gospel, and some yahoo from UT has to bring up Bama!

I will say this: Until Logan Young is CONVICTED of the selling AM for $150K, then it never happened...As some other Vols have said in the post and 10K other PROVE IT! and proof is not the nc2a, it is a court of law...until then vol fans can stfu.

good day

I agree with you Tide. This is a criminal trial so someone is innocent until proven guilty. :)

[carolinavol]

I agree with you Tide. This is a criminal trial so someone is innocent until proven guilty. :)

Innocent until provent guilty IN A COURT OF LAW, not necessarily in the Court of Public Opinion. I mean, are you really going to argue that OJ is innocent? The Government will put on their case the LY Paid off a coach in the Mean's case, if im not mistaken. Remember, there is a very very large hole between beyond a reasonable doubt, and innocent.

That being said, I wish all this crap would just go away, I hate Bama as much as the next UT fan, but im so dang sick of hearing about Albert Means it leaves me yearning for 24 hour infomercials on Scott Peterson. Whatever the hell it was going on in Memphis, its clearly shut down now, and Shula has Bama back and ready to go it appears. Can't wait for football to start being played, and more importantly discussed rather than who has the dirtiest Boosters, etc.

[Neo]

Innocent until provent guilty IN A COURT OF LAW, not necessarily in the Court of Public Opinion. I mean, are you really going to argue that OJ is innocent? The Government will put on their case the LY Paid off a coach in the Mean's case, if im not mistaken. Remember, there is a very very large hole between beyond a reasonable doubt, and innocent.


Allow me to explain myself first Carolina....:)

When I say someone is presumed innocent until proven guilty I mean it. Did I think OJ was innocent at first? Yes I did, but as I watched and followed the trial, I felt the proscution had proven it's case. So my vote would have been guilty. Presumption of innocence in the courtroom is needed, outside the court is a whole new ball of wax.

As for Peterson, I followed that trial closer than I did the OJ trial. According to what I heard on TV and in the media, I was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that he butchered his pregnant wife and her unborn child.

Just because I love the US Constitution and believe in what it stands for does not mean that I am going to let a person that I believe to be a criminal go free. In case you're wondering, I am a registered Libertarian. That's why I have such strong views on the Bill of Rights and our great Constitution. :D

[Neo]

The Constitution says that you can only convict someone of a crime if the proscution has proven it's case beyond a reasonable doubt. :)

[carolinavol]

Allow me to explain myself first Carolina....:)

When I say someone is presumed innocent until proven guilty I mean it. Did I think OJ was innocent at first? Yes I did, but as I watched and followed the trial, I felt the proscution had proven it's case. So my vote would have been guilty. Presumption of innocence in the courtroom is needed, outside the court is a whole new ball of wax.

As for Peterson, I followed that trial closer than I did the OJ trial. According to what I heard on TV and in the media, I was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that he butchered his pregnant wife and her unborn child.

Just because I love the US Constitution and believe in what it stands for does not mean that I am going to let a person that I believe to be a criminal go free. In case you're wondering, I am a registered Libertarian. That's why I have such strong views on the Bill of Rights and our great Constitution. :D

Delorean,
I am a hard conservative, with a strong Libertarian streak. I'd be willing to bet that if you are truly a Libertarian, we would be hard pressed to find a point of disagreement on politics. I think you misinterpreted my point about the innocent until proven guilty argument. Absolutely, in a court of law that is the standard, as well as it should be, and very much being deteriorated I might add! I think that the correct verdict in the OJ case came down, yet Im somewhat convinced he did it. I disagree on the Peterson verdict, I am absolutely convinced that he did in fact kill his wife, but I don't think that he is legally guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That example represents the distinction I was trying to make, one individually, or collectively (on a message board for instance) may form opinions of guilt or innocence and publicly declare those opinions. Those opinions do not render the subject of said opinions at risk of life or liberty (with some exceptions related to sensational media coverage), and it is each individuals right to set their own standards under which to form a judgement. Thus, from what I have seen and read, I think there is plenty of evidence to convince me, that Logan Young was buying players, yet, I have no idea if there is adequate evidence to reach the threshold of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Thus, my point is, if there is not enough evidence to convict LY in no way proves to a certainty that the transgression didn't occur, and more importantly, has no bearing in the accuracy of the NCAA report on the matter due to the differing standards of proof, and the NCAA being a private organization.

[fernandomike]

Man, that original post sounds like it came straight from the mouth of Tommy Gallion. Is that you, Tommy? Like the part about "sealing academic files." Student academic files are quite obviously private. If you want to look at a football player's transcript, you must get permission from the player, not the university.
Linda Bensel-Myers and others also made claims regarding players receiving too many incompletes from their professors. Incompletes are totally at the professor's discretion. I am living proof that extra time to finish coursework at the end of a semester is not a priviledge afforded only to football players. I had the misfortune of having to pay my way through school by working 40 hours a week. Believe me, I asked for and received several incompletes at UT without having even a modest amount of athletic talent.
Most of the other claims are completely unsubstantiated. As Oregonvol stated, these things have been thoroughly examined and nothing was found. There may be a perception among tiders and a few others that UT cheats, but why haven't we been turned in? In instances when we have, why have they amounted to minor infractions or nothing at all? If we were so heinous, why didn't we just join in on the bidding for Means and others? I doubt very seriously that Fulmer pays recruits or has anyone do it on his behalf. Rogue boosters are another story as they are so difficult to police, but we know that goes on at all major programs.
Some will cite the Tee Martin incident as proof that the NCAA looks the other way in regards to UT. The woman who gave Tee money was a long-time family friend and employer of Tee's mother. It is not a violation if it is based on a lengthy friendship and not as a benefit for attending a particular university.
The Gallion's of the world are enemies to a great football rivalry. Enough with the smear campaign. Guilt by innuendo is not enough to derail the Big Orange Express.
Despite your best efforts, our recruiting is going very well. I can't say that I look forward to the uptick in you rhetoric again when recruiting season comes around next year.

Sorry for the long post, but I must defend my team against all aggressors!

[bucksutton]

10 out of 11 years huh?? Do you happen to remember the Bear Bryant days. I think we have won 7 National Titles, how many has Tenn won??

[troxel3]

There they go again.....here's a newsflash for ya, bucksutton. If you have to fall back on what your team accomplished over two decades ago, you might want to find a new arguement. You bragging about winning 7 titles, when the last one of those seven was 13 years ago, and the one before that was in 1979, is laughable, at best. And yes, we do remember the Bear Bryant days. Brings back memories of 8- tracks, vinyl records, and bell bottoms.

You should hang out with some Syracuse fans. I think they won a NC back in 1959. You guys could drink some wine and reminisce.

[bucksutton]

Hmmmm,,One thing I noticed about you to Mr. Troxel3, you didn't seem to mention all the National Titles your team has won. I know, its much, much, easier to trash a winner than to act like one!

[troxel3]

Now that I think about it, no wonder why you must brag about what happened last century......since 2000, how many divisional or conference championshiops does Bama have? I think that would be NONE. What is bamas overall record since 2000? 30-31 rings a bell.
UT has two divisional titles and a a record of 47-16 since 2000, so at least we can brag about something in recent friggin history.

[troxel3]

Hmmmm,,One thing I noticed about you to Mr. Troxel3, you didn't seem to mention all the National Titles your team has won. I know, its much, much, easier to trash a winner than to act like one!

UT has won 4 NCs.

And who is trashing a winner? I was talking about Alabama.

[VOLMANN]

Tell it OVF!

[Neo]

Hmmmm,,One thing I noticed about you to Mr. Troxel3, you didn't seem to mention all the National Titles your team has won. I know, its much, much, easier to trash a winner than to act like one!

Welcome to the site Buck!

If you ever need an Admin, PM me or Dudeman0501. :)

[troxel3]

Tell it OVF!

OVF?? huh?

[Neo]

OVF? Ol' VOL Fan?

[bucksutton]

Mr.Troxel3 Please try to remember, football has been around a little longer than since the year 2000. There are books and sport shows you could read & watch that would teach you that since you didn't know that.

[allaboutavol]

OVF?? huh?

Hey, thats what I was going to say!! :p

[Neo]

Hey, thats what I was going to say!! :p

Beat ya to it... :p

[GRASSHOPPER]

Hey, thats what I was going to say!! :pME TOO! LUCY YOU GOT SOME SPLAININ TO DO!

[troxel3]

Mr.Troxel3 Please try to remember, football has been around a little longer than since the year 2000. There are books and sport shows you could read & watch that would teach you that since you didn't know that.

OK, let me explain this so even you can understand.......IF YOU HAVE TO GO BACK 15, 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO TO FIND SOMETHING TO BRAG ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO BAMA FOOTBALL, IT IS A VERY GOOD INDICATION THAT THE TEAM THEY HAVE NOW IS NOT ALL THAT GLORIOUS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND??

Good grief...............

[Neo]

In Alabama's defense, their successes really put the SEC on the map.:)

Just a fun little fact.:)

[troxel3]

Not disputing that at all. They have a wonderful tradition.

[bucksutton]

In Alabama's defense, their successes really put the SEC on the map.:)

Just a fun little fact.:)
Thank You Very Much , Deloreanfan1. It is an honor the way you approach matters on this SEC talk site. The real truth is, the SEC is the best, everyone of the teams has the spirit of a champion.

[Neo]

Thank You Very Much , Deloreanfan1. It is an honor the way you approach matters on this SEC talk site. The real truth is, the SEC is the best, everyone of the teams has the spirit of a champion.

Well...you can't argue with history. Bama's history is what made the SEC a household name. After and during the "Bear" the SEC was the premier conference in the land hands down. :D

[allaboutavol]

After and during the "Bear" the SEC was the premier conference in the land hands down.




I have to correct you Del, nothing personal.

The above statement should read as follows:

During and after the CREATION OF ALL LIVING THINGS , including, but not limited to, the time we were ALL blessed by the wonder know as "Bear", the SEC IS, WAS, AND FOREVER WILL BE the premier conference in the land, hands down.
AMEN

[GRASSHOPPER]

Thank You Very Much , Deloreanfan1. It is an honor the way you approach matters on this SEC talk site. The real truth is, the SEC is the best, everyone of the teams has the spirit of a champion.DON'T PY NO ATTENTION TO TROXEL HE IS A SMART A--

[Neo]

I have to correct you Del, nothing personal.

The above statement should read as follows:

During and after the CREATION OF ALL LIVING THINGS , including, but not limited to, the time we were ALL blessed by the wonder know as "Bear", the SEC IS, WAS, AND FOREVER WILL BE the premier conference in the land, hands down.
AMEN

LOL! Good one! :D

[bucksutton]

DON'T PY NO ATTENTION TO TROXEL HE IS A SMART A--
Thank You very much for that info. I really enjoy sharing Sec talk with people with class, such as yourself. Good Luck this year with Your SC team.

[GRASSHOPPER]

Thank You very much for that info. I really enjoy sharing Sec talk with people with class, such as yourself. Good Luck next year with Your SC team.
THANKS WE CAN USE A LITTLE LUCK. ROLL TIDE!

[allaboutavol]

LOL! Good one! :D


I thought you would like that!! That is our dinner prayer every night, although "bear" and "the General" are interchangable" ;) See I had to bow my head. :D

[allaboutavol]

THANKS WE CAN USE A LITTLE LUCK. ROLL TIDE!

<shouting> Grasshopper!?!? Grasshopper!?!? Has anyone seen Grasshopper!?! I am afraid that an imposter has taken over his S/N and typed ROLL TIDE!! ;) OOO he is gonna be mad when he wakes up!! (still owing me a beer! ;) )

Now repeat after me..."GO VOLS"

*you are such a good sport!

[GRASSHOPPER]

<shouting> Grasshopper!?!? Grasshopper!?!? Has anyone seen Grasshopper!?! I am afraid that an imposter has taken over his S/N and typed ROLL TIDE!! ;) OOO he is gonna be mad when he wakes up!! (still owing me a beer! ;) )

*you are such a good sport!THE BEER IS YOURS CHICKADEE- I PULL FOR ALL THE SEC UNTIL THEY PLAY MY COCKS- THEN I HATE ALL OF EM AT LEAST ONE DAY A YEAR OR TWO IF WE LOSE! SO MOSTLY TWO.LOL!

[GRASSHOPPER]

Oh I Forgot Go Vols Or How About Roll Vols-- Naaa Go Vols!

[allaboutavol]

Oh I Forgot Go Vols Or How About Roll Vols-- Naaa Go Vols!


I am soooooooo proud, now I owe you a beer!

[GRASSHOPPER]

I am soooooooo proud, now I owe you a beer!WORKED TO PREFECTION! NOW YOU OWE ME!

[allaboutavol]

WORKED TO PREFECTION! NOW YOU OWE ME!


:eek: Well then I guess you think you are smooth :cool: ;) Yea Yea, July, I gotcha, beer on me!

[GRASSHOPPER]

He! He! He!

[allaboutavol]

He! He! He!

:rolleyes: Yea, you are sooo getting Nattie Ice!

[Bamabelle in georgia]

Very well put......having Bama as a "force" in college football is good for college football and good for the SEC. Now, if you guys could beat us more than once a decade......hahahaha jk
Hey bud. If I remember correctly we won 12 in a row against ut in the 70s and 80s. Equal that one and then "we'll talk".

Roll Tide.

[Neo]

Hey bud. If I remember correctly we won 12 in a row against ut in the 70s and 80s. Equal that one and then "we'll talk".

Roll Tide.

You're close.:) You won 11.

From 1971-1981


http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/sec/tennessee/opponents_records.php?teamid=86

[Bamabelle in georgia]

I must have gotten confused with our 12 wins straight over awburn during that same time period.

[bucksutton]

Hey bud. If I remember correctly we won 12 in a row against ut in the 70s and 80s. Equal that one and then "we'll talk".

Roll Tide.
Don't let Troxel3 see you qoute this. Just go back a few pages on this very topic you are having and look what he said about this to me yesterday. Please, go look at it! It starts on page 7, I think.

[Neo]

Don't let Troxel3 see you qoute this. Just go back a few pages on this very topic you are having and look what he said about this to me yesterday. Please, go look at it! It starts on page 7, I think.

Buck,

I wouldn't worry what he thinks. You can praise Alabama's past just like he's praising Tennessee's present state. :D

One thing you ought to think about is that Alabama has a record of 43-37-7 over Tennessee. :) Just food for thought.

[gmcck4life]

I am late coming into this convo but i have read many times by many UT fans where they say "prove it " and that every time they were investigated they were cleared. We can start where we know what is true. FatPhil did turn in a fellow SEC school which in my humble opinion was and is a disgrace. Now for all the stuff you say u can't prove, that doesn't mean its not true either.There are alot of mafia, con-artists, burgulars and on and on walking the streets. Is it because they are innocent? No its just cause they know better how to cover their butts. If it looks like crap, smells like crap, then it is probably crap. Follow the scent and it will lead you to Knoxville.

[Neo]

I am late coming into this convo but i have read many times by many UT fans where they say "prove it " and that every time they were investigated they were cleared. We can start where we know what is true. FatPhil did turn in a fellow SEC school which in my humble opinion was and is a disgrace. Now for all the stuff you say u can't prove, that doesn't mean its not true either.There are alot of mafia, con-artists, burgulars and on and on walking the streets. Is it because they are innocent? No its just cause they know better how to cover their butts. If it looks like crap, smells like crap, then it is probably crap. Follow the scent and it will lead you to Knoxville.

The only thing that I'm going to say is that in any given neighborhood, everyone knows who the drug dealers are. They just can't prove it. ;)

Just food for thought.

[carolinavol]

I am late coming into this convo but i have read many times by many UT fans where they say "prove it " and that every time they were investigated they were cleared. We can start where we know what is true. FatPhil did turn in a fellow SEC school which in my humble opinion was and is a disgrace. Now for all the stuff you say u can't prove, that doesn't mean its not true either.There are alot of mafia, con-artists, burgulars and on and on walking the streets. Is it because they are innocent? No its just cause they know better how to cover their butts. If it looks like crap, smells like crap, then it is probably crap. Follow the scent and it will lead you to Knoxville.

Now this is wholly unfair for a number of reasons, imo. First and foremost, the fact that Fulmer would not cooperate in an NCAA investigation where he had knowledge that could assist the NCAA, is a violation of NCAA ethics rules in and of itself. Technically, Fulmer was playing by the rules and NOT CHEATING, by cooperating. Second, if a direct competitor of yours, say in business, was breaking the law, and in doing so, directly gaining an advantage over you, and hurting your personal livelihood, would you not cooperate if the investigators asked if you could help? Of course you would. Third, Fulmer gets berated for this Bama case, yet I haven't seen you criticize your own current coach, Steve Spurrier, or Houston Nutt, or Jacky Sherril, who WAS proven to be cheating, cooperated w/ the NCAA in the BAMA case, yet I hear none of the criticisms towards him as I do Fulmer. I guess it is because Miss St. doesnt have a decade old winning streak against certain schools (sorry Del). So, if you are going to critique Fulmer for cooperating, point the finger at SOS, Nutt, and Sherril as well.
Now, as far as lack of proof is concerned. If I go and publically accuse you of soliciting prostitutes in front of your wife, girlfriend, etc. simply because you were driving down a road infamous for prostitution, would that make me justified? I doubt you would think so. The fact that I can sit here, and recite the names of Logan Young, Lynn Lang, etc., means that the accusations against Bama were at least brought out with accusations of specific instances, and specific persons involved. Simply saying I assume Fulmer is cheating, therefore he is, is not only unfairly presumptuous, but with all do respect, it is an ignorant position to hold (absolutely not a personal attack against you, just rebutting your argument). Sure there are a lot of people who know how to get away with things, but someone under as much scrutiny as Fulmer has been over the last five years, would have a much much more difficult time, if not impossible, with getting away with any type of violations. Trust me, if Fulmer has been cheating, Tommy Gallion will find it, the fact that all he has been able to prove after using the powers of litigation (depostions, subpeonas, etc,) for over a year is that Fulmer adhered to the ethical standards set forth by the NCAA and cooperated, is in fact great evidence to Fulmers integrity.

[Neo]

Technically, Fulmer was playing by the rules and NOT CHEATING, by cooperating.

I'm going to play devil's advocate again.... :D

Using the rationale that Mr. Fulmer isn't guilty because the NCAA has found no wrongdoing is like saying OJ Simpson didn't kill anyone because he was found innocent. Another way of putting it would be; That's like saying, the garbage don't stink because you can't see it in the trash bag. Get it? :D

Just because no one has found it yet does not mean it doesn't exist. :D

[troxel3]

Complete Bull.
First, whoever it was that said Fulmer turning in Bama was a disgrace need to look up the word "intergrity"
Second, this whole thing about,"if it smells like crap, it must be crap" is weak, at best. And comparing a football accusation to O.J. Simpson is ridiculous.

So, Del, what you are saying is that if a program is accused of something, and there are no facts to back it up, the program is still guilty until proven innocent?
In that case, I heard the SOS is gay. Must be true if you can't disprove it.

[Neo]

Complete Bull.
First, whoever it was that said Fulmer turning in Bama was a disgrace need to look up the word "intergrity"
Second, this whole thing about,"if it smells like crap, it must be crap" is weak, at best. And comparing a football accusation to O.J. Simpson is ridiculous.

So, Del, what you are saying is that if a program is accused of something, and there are no facts to back it up, the program is still guilty until proven innocent?
In that case, I heard the SOS is gay. Must be true if you can't disprove it.

No..What I'm saying is that anytime UT is accused of something and believe me it happens very frequently, the UT fans say;

Prove it
Show me the evidence
Mr. Fulmer would never do that

All I'm trying to say is that a unmeasureable amout of SEC fans believe that he's crooked and I was throwing out the line saying in a "crude" way that really none of us knows what goes on behind closed doors. :)

[troxel3]

none of us knows what goes on behind closed doors.

exactamundo.

[gmcck4life]

[QUOTE]Complete Bull.
First, whoever it was that said Fulmer turning in Bama was a disgrace need to look up the word "intergrity"

I tried very hard but that word was not in my dictionary so i looked up integrity.

Integrity: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

You think that fits FatPhil????? Integrity is not being a tattle tale. I guess when your kids run into your room and tell on the other child u think to yourself " my, what strong integrity he is going to have." Me personally i get on my child for being the tattle tale also.

moral:Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior

Are you telling me it was morally right that when the NCAA came to him with problems to say "hey, leave me alone and i will hand you Alabama." Yeah i am sure that was the moral and ethical thing to do.

What you do not realize is, that even though you are in direct competition, you are also on the same team. The SEC conference is suppose to be an atheletics family of schools. Stand as one you are strong, stand as many you are weak. All Fat Phil did was weaken the conference.

USC has had our share of troubles in the University and i won't sit here and say that they didn't happen because i like to keep my eyes open. I try and see the truth. If you will look into your closet you will see class room problems ( which UT did a very nice job of covering up b4 investigated) improper benefits such as a coach loaning phone cards and the lists go on and on. I say if you are getting away with it, then good for you.Alabama got caught, and mainly because of taped conversations from Phill, and were punished. If he is so moral, ethical, and self assured that he did the correct thing then let him go to Alabama and face the judicial system. If he was so right the truth will set him free. One thing i can say is no matter how much cover up u do eventually the uncatchable gets caught. Open your eyes and see the truth.

[carolinavol]

[QUOTE]Complete Bull.
First, whoever it was that said Fulmer turning in Bama was a disgrace need to look up the word "intergrity"

I tried very hard but that word was not in my dictionary so i looked up integrity.

Integrity: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

You think that fits FatPhil????? Integrity is not being a tattle tale. I guess when your kids run into your room and tell on the other child u think to yourself " my, what strong integrity he is going to have." Me personally i get on my child for being the tattle tale also.

moral:Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior

Are you telling me it was morally right that when the NCAA came to him with problems to say "hey, leave me alone and i will hand you Alabama." Yeah i am sure that was the moral and ethical thing to do.

What you do not realize is, that even though you are in direct competition, you are also on the same team. The SEC conference is suppose to be an atheletics family of schools. Stand as one you are strong, stand as many you are weak. All Fat Phil did was weaken the conference.

USC has had our share of troubles in the University and i won't sit here and say that they didn't happen because i like to keep my eyes open. I try and see the truth. If you will look into your closet you will see class room problems ( which UT did a very nice job of covering up b4 investigated) improper benefits such as a coach loaning phone cards and the lists go on and on. I say if you are getting away with it, then good for you.Alabama got caught, and mainly because of taped conversations from Phill, and were punished. If he is so moral, ethical, and self assured that he did the correct thing then let him go to Alabama and face the judicial system. If he was so right the truth will set him free. One thing i can say is no matter how much cover up u do eventually the uncatchable gets caught. Open your eyes and see the truth.

From the NCAA Bylaws:
10.1 UNETHICAL CONDUCT
Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff
member (e.g., coach, professor, tutor, teaching assistant, student manager, student trainer) may include,
but is not limited to, the following: (Revised: 1/10/90, 1/9/96, 2/22/01)
(a) Refusal to furnish information relevant to an investigation of a possible violation of an NCAA regulation
when requested to do so by the NCAA or the individual’s institution;

Integrity: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

Sure looks like integrity to me!!!!!

And please, put down the Bama coolaid. You seem to be much smarter than to fall for the innuendo and lies of a trial lawyer from Bama who is fabricating the whole quid pro quo Fulmer/NCAA arrangement. The ambulance chase has had over a year, and CANNOT prove it, so why do you believe it? I know, I know, where there's smoke theres fire, yada yada yada. The problem is, that the smoke has drifted over Knoxille from a fire that was put out in Bama several years ago!

[CrimsonTide42]

The one constant throughout your thread is accusations, or alleged, etc. The NCAA cleared UT of the academic violations mentione in #2 after an on campus investigation. Nothing in this thread, other than the players convictions and jail times, has been proven ANYWHERE. As for other programs that are dirtier that Tennessee, what about Ohio State?

Keep lobbing these accusations at Knoxville. None of them have been proven true and none of them will be. It's sad that so many people are more interested in Tennessee's program than their own.

Ucheat is in bed with the NCAA. Nobody trusts either of you !! Why do you keep saying the NCAA cleared Ucheat . The NCAA has cleared Ucheat every
time they do something wrong . Nothing new. The day is coming and Ucheat
iand the fans are going to be shocked!!! Tell me I am wrong !!! Your Wrong!!

[CrimsonTide42]

The one constant throughout your thread is accusations, or alleged, etc. The NCAA cleared UT of the academic violations mentione in #2 after an on campus investigation. Nothing in this thread, other than the players convictions and jail times, has been proven ANYWHERE. As for other programs that are dirtier that Tennessee, what about Ohio State?

Keep lobbing these accusations at Knoxville. None of them have been proven true and none of them will be. It's sad that so many people are more interested in Tennessee's program than their own.

Ucheat is in bed with the NCAA. Nobody trusts either of you !! Why do you keep saying the NCAA cleared Ucheat . The NCAA has cleared Ucheat every
time they do something wrong . Nothing new. The day is coming and Ucheat
iand the fans are going to be shocked!!! Tell me I am wrong !!! Your Wrong!!

[DAdvocate]

I am new to the board and not a fan of either school so it is easy for me to jump into the fray with my opinions.

First is the hyprocrisy on both sides. A UT fan can say "From what I have read and heard, I don't care if Young is found not guilty, I still think he did it." But in the very first post, an SC fan sights his reasons for thinking UT is a corrupt program and the UT faithful shout "Prove it".

The SC fan doesn't have to "prove" anything to have his opinion that UT is corrupt. The same as the UT fan not needing "proof" to determine Young paid for Means.

Some one even stated that it doesn't matter if Young didn't pay for Means, in the court of public opinion, he did, or something to that affect. Well that cuts both ways, even if UT didn't commit academic fraud, in the court of public opinion, many people think they did. Same thing.

Now on to another subject, I live in Memphis and I thought in the beginning, Young, no doubt bought Means according to reports in the local paper, but I'm really not so sure. I need proof now. You see, too much has changed in the stories from Lang and Kirk, especially Kirk. I have seen posted and reported in the paper that Young paid $200,000 for Means. Then it was dropped to $150,000 then to $125,000 then to $100,000 and two cars, etc. Well, the last I read it is down to less than $40,000. Kirk also changed another story, first Kirk said Means mother didn't get any money, then later changed his story and said she got $10,000. All of this has been reported in the Memphis paper and another local weekly paper, The Flyer, over a period of time.

I will agree that if Young paid $20 for Means it was wrong and a clear violation and Bama was severely punished for it. But where did these numbers come from? I don't know, but the trial in Memphis could get interesting. I would not want to be Kirk on the witness stand with a good lawyer questioning me, again, my opinion.

Next, I think Fulmer does have an unhealthy obsession with Alabama (my opinion). He is not content to beat them on the field every year. Didn't UT self impose and gave up a few schollies a couple of years ago because Fulmer was tampering or recruiting a kid who was already on scholorship (sp) at Bama? I seem to remember reading about that a couple of years ago in the paper as well.

I have no axe to grind with UT fans or any other fans for that matter, so don't take my comments personally. Rightly or wrongly, my comments are only my opinion and are open for disagreement by anyone.

I don't think UT is any more clean or dirty than Bama, Miss State, Ole Miss, Arkansas, Kentucky, Auburn (all schools in the SEC that have faced sanctions in the past), Miami, Oklahoma, well you get the point. The Vols bring in a top 5 recruiting class every year and they are the only ones doing it clean?

[GTmorris1970]

I am new to the board and not a fan of either school so it is easy for me to jump into the fray with my opinions.

First is the hyprocrisy on both sides. A UT fan can say "From what I have read and heard, I don't care if Young is found not guilty, I still think he did it." But in the very first post, an SC fan sights his reasons for thinking UT is a corrupt program and the UT faithful shout "Prove it".

The SC fan doesn't have to "prove" anything to have his opinion that UT is corrupt. The same as the UT fan not needing "proof" to determine Young paid for Means.

Some one even stated that it doesn't matter if Young didn't pay for Means, in the court of public opinion, he did, or something to that affect. Well that cuts both ways, even if UT didn't commit academic fraud, in the court of public opinion, many people think they did. Same thing.

Now on to another subject, I live in Memphis and I thought in the beginning, Young, no doubt bought Means according to reports in the local paper, but I'm really not so sure. I need proof now. You see, too much has changed in the stories from Lang and Kirk, especially Kirk. I have seen posted and reported in the paper that Young paid $200,000 for Means. Then it was dropped to $150,000 then to $125,000 then to $100,000 and two cars, etc. Well, the last I read it is down to less than $40,000. Kirk also changed another story, first Kirk said Means mother didn't get any money, then later changed his story and said she got $10,000. All of this has been reported in the Memphis paper and another local weekly paper, The Flyer, over a period of time.

I will agree that if Young paid $20 for Means it was wrong and a clear violation and Bama was severely punished for it. But where did these numbers come from? I don't know, but the trial in Memphis could get interesting. I would not want to be Kirk on the witness stand with a good lawyer questioning me, again, my opinion.

Next, I think Fulmer does have an unhealthy obsession with Alabama (my opinion). He is not content to beat them on the field every year. Didn't UT self impose and gave up a few schollies a couple of years ago because Fulmer was tampering or recruiting a kid who was already on scholorship (sp) at Bama? I seem to remember reading about that a couple of years ago in the paper as well.

I have no axe to grind with UT fans or any other fans for that matter, so don't take my comments personally. Rightly or wrongly, my comments are only my opinion and are open for disagreement by anyone.

I don't think UT is any more clean or dirty than Bama, Miss State, Ole Miss, Arkansas, Kentucky, Auburn (all schools in the SEC that have faced sanctions in the past), Miami, Oklahoma, well you get the point. The Vols bring in a top 5 recruiting class every year and they are the only ones doing it clean?

Nice post, and well put. I too believe Tenn. is up to no good, and I believe they have been for some time. Will it ever be proven? Probably not. It has not been to this point. Does that mean its not going on? Absolutely not. I know many who feel that Fulmer stabbed the ex Tenn. head coach in the back to get the job he has now. When you start crooked, you are probably going to stay that way. Does it add or take one single day away from my life? Not a bit. I do like what I have seen and heard from Spurrier so far. I think he is going to run a tight clean ship here. :)

[Neo]

I am new to the board and not a fan of either school so it is easy for me to jump into the fray with my opinions.

First is the hyprocrisy on both sides. A UT fan can say "From what I have read and heard, I don't care if Young is found not guilty, I still think he did it." But in the very first post, an SC fan sights his reasons for thinking UT is a corrupt program and the UT faithful shout "Prove it".

The SC fan doesn't have to "prove" anything to have his opinion that UT is corrupt. The same as the UT fan not needing "proof" to determine Young paid for Means.

Some one even stated that it doesn't matter if Young didn't pay for Means, in the court of public opinion, he did, or something to that affect. Well that cuts both ways, even if UT didn't commit academic fraud, in the court of public opinion, many people think they did. Same thing.

Now on to another subject, I live in Memphis and I thought in the beginning, Young, no doubt bought Means according to reports in the local paper, but I'm really not so sure. I need proof now. You see, too much has changed in the stories from Lang and Kirk, especially Kirk. I have seen posted and reported in the paper that Young paid $200,000 for Means. Then it was dropped to $150,000 then to $125,000 then to $100,000 and two cars, etc. Well, the last I read it is down to less than $40,000. Kirk also changed another story, first Kirk said Means mother didn't get any money, then later changed his story and said she got $10,000. All of this has been reported in the Memphis paper and another local weekly paper, The Flyer, over a period of time.

I will agree that if Young paid $20 for Means it was wrong and a clear violation and Bama was severely punished for it. But where did these numbers come from? I don't know, but the trial in Memphis could get interesting. I would not want to be Kirk on the witness stand with a good lawyer questioning me, again, my opinion.

Next, I think Fulmer does have an unhealthy obsession with Alabama (my opinion). He is not content to beat them on the field every year. Didn't UT self impose and gave up a few schollies a couple of years ago because Fulmer was tampering or recruiting a kid who was already on scholorship (sp) at Bama? I seem to remember reading about that a couple of years ago in the paper as well.

I have no axe to grind with UT fans or any other fans for that matter, so don't take my comments personally. Rightly or wrongly, my comments are only my opinion and are open for disagreement by anyone.

I don't think UT is any more clean or dirty than Bama, Miss State, Ole Miss, Arkansas, Kentucky, Auburn (all schools in the SEC that have faced sanctions in the past), Miami, Oklahoma, well you get the point. The Vols bring in a top 5 recruiting class every year and they are the only ones doing it clean?

Very good post!!!!! :D

Welcome to the site! If you ever need anything, PM me.

[carolinavol]

I am new to the board and not a fan of either school so it is easy for me to jump into the fray with my opinions.

First is the hyprocrisy on both sides. A UT fan can say "From what I have read and heard, I don't care if Young is found not guilty, I still think he did it." But in the very first post, an SC fan sights his reasons for thinking UT is a corrupt program and the UT faithful shout "Prove it".

The SC fan doesn't have to "prove" anything to have his opinion that UT is corrupt. The same as the UT fan not needing "proof" to determine Young paid for Means.

Some one even stated that it doesn't matter if Young didn't pay for Means, in the court of public opinion, he did, or something to that affect. Well that cuts both ways, even if UT didn't commit academic fraud, in the court of public opinion, many people think they did. Same thing.

Now on to another subject, I live in Memphis and I thought in the beginning, Young, no doubt bought Means according to reports in the local paper, but I'm really not so sure. I need proof now. You see, too much has changed in the stories from Lang and Kirk, especially Kirk. I have seen posted and reported in the paper that Young paid $200,000 for Means. Then it was dropped to $150,000 then to $125,000 then to $100,000 and two cars, etc. Well, the last I read it is down to less than $40,000. Kirk also changed another story, first Kirk said Means mother didn't get any money, then later changed his story and said she got $10,000. All of this has been reported in the Memphis paper and another local weekly paper, The Flyer, over a period of time.

I will agree that if Young paid $20 for Means it was wrong and a clear violation and Bama was severely punished for it. But where did these numbers come from? I don't know, but the trial in Memphis could get interesting. I would not want to be Kirk on the witness stand with a good lawyer questioning me, again, my opinion.

Next, I think Fulmer does have an unhealthy obsession with Alabama (my opinion). He is not content to beat them on the field every year. Didn't UT self impose and gave up a few schollies a couple of years ago because Fulmer was tampering or recruiting a kid who was already on scholorship (sp) at Bama? I seem to remember reading about that a couple of years ago in the paper as well.

I have no axe to grind with UT fans or any other fans for that matter, so don't take my comments personally. Rightly or wrongly, my comments are only my opinion and are open for disagreement by anyone.

I don't think UT is any more clean or dirty than Bama, Miss State, Ole Miss, Arkansas, Kentucky, Auburn (all schools in the SEC that have faced sanctions in the past), Miami, Oklahoma, well you get the point. The Vols bring in a top 5 recruiting class every year and they are the only ones doing it clean?

Very logical, coherant, and well thought out post. Couple of things to respond to in it. One, I am one of the VOL fans who will request that the Bammers and rogue Gamecocks 'put up or shut up', so to speak, when it comes to hurling allegations. I also added that based on the things I have heard so far, my opinion is that they caught Bama redhanded. For me, the notion that the NCAA can thoroughly investigate, find fault, levy sanctions, the Feds come in, investigate, file charges, and the charges make it to trial with the defendant having access to the best possible defense attorney's he can 'buy', tells me that there is a good possibility that merit exists in these charges. Now, I have at this point come to the conclusion this merit exists, thus, from my standpoint he is possibly guilty in the court of public opinion. Now, it can be inferred that you sense some conflicting arguments by us Volunteers. One, if Logan Young is found not guilty in a court of law, what that means is that their was not enough evidence to convict Logan Young beyond a reasonable doubt, which in no way means that Logan Young was never involved in attempting to 'buy recruits', thus, the reason some of us VOLS claim that an aquittal in the case does not imply institutional innocence on the part of UA. Now, you ask how us VOL fans can claim 'we don't care about the outcome of the criminal trial relative to our opinion of Bama', yet require proof in the allegations coming out of Bama and not become hypocrites. Well, thats a good question, and the answer is the fact that proof was levied against BAMA in the NCAA investigation, a standard was met, and I simply don't buy any of the NCAA, FBI, Federal Gov't, etc all conspired w/ Fulmer to bring down Bama arguments. If the only thing connecting Bama to recruiting violations was rampant speculation on Internet message boards, I would most certainly be interested in hearing more, but wait for more before going out claiming that Bama is cheating.

If you are not familiar with the allegations that usually get hurled at Fulmer, they almost always have the following characteristics: 1, they are timed around recruiting season, or the annual UT-Bama game. 2. They all can be traced back to the Bama fanbase, and usually come from Gallion on the Finebaum show. And finally (3), they are almost always just allegations, insinuations, or speculation that has not been supported by any fact or evidence whatsoever, or has been completely disproven and/or taken completely out of context. The bottom line, these allegations come out from Gallion in a weak attempt to create a bunch of rumors (mostly on internet message boards that are spread like wildfire thanks to the Bama and SC fans), in an attempt to hurt the UT program because they cannot prove anything against us and because we beat them repeatedly. We UT fans simply want for people to wake up and see what is going on here, and stop becoming the pawns of a few idiotic Bama boosters who got busted, got angry, want to get UT but can't, so they plant the seed of speculation and let the internet and talk shows, etc, do their dirty work for them leaving them unnaccountable in the process. Simply asking for evidence of wrongdoing other than "this poster on this board said..." quickly stops the process of slander taking place against my alma mater and it's great fanbase.

Again, very good 1st post, hope to see more from you soon!

[Neo]

One, if Logan Young is found not guilty in a court of law, what that means is that their was not enough evidence to convict Logan Young beyond a reasonable doubt, which in no way means that Logan Young was never involved in attempting to 'buy recruits', thus, the reason some of us VOLS claim that an aquittal in the case does not imply institutional innocence on the part of UA.

That's a double standard. First...

VOL fans say we are supposed to believe Fulmer is innocent because the NCAA (Court) found nothing wrong, but if this Bama guy is found innocent VOL fans are still going to insist that he did it.

Do you see the conflict? A couple of VOL fans have said prove why you think Fulmer has cheated. I tell them my opinion and they retort with the "NCAA cleared him" routine.

Now with this Bama guy even if he's found innocent, VOL fans will still continue on believing he did it and to sum it up, I'm going to quote the previous poster:

"The Vols bring in a top 5 recruiting class every year and they are the only ones doing it clean?" :D

[cocky4ever]

That's a double standard. First...

VOL fans say we are supposed to believe Fulmer is innocent because the NCAA (Court) found nothing wrong, but if this Bama guy is found innocent VOL fans are still going to insist that he did it.

Do you see the conflict? A couple of VOL fans have said prove why you think Fulmer has cheated. I tell them my opinion and they retort with the "NCAA cleared him" routine.

Now with this Bama guy even if he's found innocent, VOL fans will still continue on believing he did it and to sum it up, I'm going to quote the previous poster:

"The Vols bring in a top 5 recruiting class every year and they are the only ones doing it clean?" :D
There are so many loopholes in the system that as long as you know the rules you can kinda bend em to help your school without doing anything that would hold any weight under investigation. There are probably a lot of things about recruiting that need to be changed. I'm sure a lot of schools use these loopholes to their advantage and I'm sure some just plain break the rules. If an investigation has taken place and nothing was found then they were following the same guidelines for recruiting that other schools have. Knowledge is power. You cant blame Fulmer for learning exactly how much he can do without a violation. Bama didnt know the rules and messed up big time. Im not saying Fulmer hasnt been involved in violations of recruiting practices, maybe he has and maybe he hasnt. What he has done is learned the system and used it to his advantage. I dont see anything wrong with that because every school could do that if they would study every little detail in NCAA guidelines.

[Neo]

If you are not familiar with the allegations that usually get hurled at Fulmer, they almost always have the following characteristics: 1, they are timed around recruiting season, or the annual UT-Bama game. 2. They all can be traced back to the Bama fanbase, and usually come from Gallion on the Finebaum show. And finally (3), they are almost always just allegations, insinuations, or speculation that has not been supported by any fact or evidence whatsoever, or has been completely disproven and/or taken completely out of context.

If Fulmer/UT would quit doing things that are "suspicious" in nature, than maybe people wouldn't question him. ;)

The topper is when a former player comes forward after he graduates and admits that he lied to the NCAA initally and accepted money with proof and the NCAA doesn't bother to reopen the investigation. :D

[fernandomike]

Del,
I am afraid that you don't like Tennessee and that is disappointing considering your position. You are rather biased and it is quite evident in your posts. When given the chance to assume the best, the worst, or nothing at all, you assume the worst.
The NCAA is not in UT's hip pocket which is what you imply and many others imply. Both UT and the NCAA agreed that the lady who gave Tee money was not a booster.
Understanding the fan/booster distinction is critical to determining violations. She is a long-time employer and close friend of the family who conceivably would have given Tee money no matter where he went or even if he were not in college at all.
The way you interpret the rules it seems that if a player's Mom sent him a check, it would be a violation. I am asking you and others to look at why the NCAA has found little fault with the vols instead of assuming some kind of a conspiracy.
Quite frankly, I think that you never should have copied and posted the "Why Bama and the rest...hate UT." That post was decidely biased and posted solely to damage UT's recruiting efforts. Its crap and all it does is further inflame the board. The message board gets filled with you, me, and others hurling accusations at each other's program instead of talking about football.

[Neo]

Del,
I am afraid that you don't like Tennessee and that is disappointing considering your position. You are rather biased and it is quite evident in your posts. When given the chance to assume the best, the worst, or nothing at all, you assume the worst.
The NCAA is not in UT's hip pocket which is what you imply and many others imply. Both UT and the NCAA agreed that the lady who gave Tee money was not a booster.
Understanding the fan/booster distinction is critical to determining violations. She is a long-time employer and close friend of the family who conceivably would have given Tee money no matter where he went or even if he were not in college at all.
The way you interpret the rules it seems that if a player's Mom sent him a check, it would be a violation. I am asking you and others to look at why the NCAA has found little fault with the vols instead of assuming some kind of a conspiracy.
Quite frankly, I think that you never should have copied and posted the "Why Bama and the rest...hate UT." That post was decidely biased and posted solely to damage UT's recruiting efforts. Its crap and all it does is further inflame the board. The message board gets filled with you, me, and others hurling accusations at each other's program instead of talking about football.


FernandoMike,

For starters, you need to ask for my opinions rather than "assuming" what they are. They say assumptions are the "mother of all screw-ups". Before you assume that I have it out for UT, maybe you should read my stories on....

The drug dealing at Florida.
The student thefts at USC.
The violations at Alabama.
The possible violations at Auburn.
The coaching woes at Ole Miss.

See, you are insulting my journalism integrity without knowing the facts. You are assuming that I am just targeting UT. I report the news good or bad on any and every school. No school is immune.

As for you and I quote: "The NCAA is not in UT's hip pocket which is what you imply and many others imply. Both UT and the NCAA agreed that the lady who gave Tee money was not a booster."

Part of that is correct, but the fact remains is that the "lady" in question was NOT family. Her husband and father were big contributors to UT and were considered "Boosters". Why does that sound strange? The husband is a booster, but not the wife???? HA! That's like saying that Laura Bush isn't a Republician because she doesn't contribute to the Republician party even though she's married to one. What a crock!

According to Mr. Martin, what you're saying doesn't float. For what purpose would he lie to investigators to begin with? Why would he lie now about what really went on while he was at UT?

Now you are entitled to your opinions on the accusations just as much as I am. As far as inflamming the board, you just don't like what you are reading. That's fine. This is a free country that gives each of us the right to express our beliefs. Your tactic is just to surpress "un-popular" speech. Instead of questioning me, you should be questioning why are bullets shot in UT's direction ALL OF THE TIME? I have a true feeling that a lot of stuff is going to come out during this trial.

It's like I said before.....

"In any given neighborhood, everyone knows who the drug dealers are, they just can't prove it."

[dudeman0501]

Can we just put this thing to bed? It's a never-ending argument.

[fernandomike]

First-We share an appreciation of the 1st amendment. My tactic is not to suppress unpopular speech, but with any speech comes responsibility. It is my goal to encourage responsible speech. I AM SURE THAT HATRED AND VENOM IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT HERE. What you chose to copy and re-post was venom, not information. Like I said, it was clearly authored and timed to negatively impact UT's recruiting.
Second-Tee's lying does not imply guilt on Tennessee's part. He lied because he did not fully understand the rules. It turned out that he had no need to lie.
Third-I have read many, but not all of your posts. Your treatment of Tennessee is decidely negative. I can speak less to your treatment of other teams. I don't need to "ask for your opinions" as you offer frequent posts. My judgment is derived from having read a bunch of them. You are not catching so much flak from Vols fans because we have some kind of strange, collective ignorance or paranoia. You are catching it because your posts regarding UT are often irresponsible.
Four-"In any given neighborhood, everyone knows who the drug dealers are. They just can't prove it." I can offer no more proof of your bias than that quote. There has been very little credible evidence to come forward concerning major recruiting vi