Does our Government have the right to outlaw Abortion??

[volimhtown]

Please read the question!! This is not about whether you agree with the issue of abortion or not. Personal conflictions aside, is this an issue our government should be concerning themselves with? In my opinion, absolutely not!! It should remain a choice for every individual. Besides, there are FAR too many more important issues our government should be spending their time addressing. The waste of taxpayer money in debating such social and moral issues is a greater crime than the action itself!!

[cocky4ever]

Please read the question!! This is not about whether you agree with the issue of abortion or not. Personal conflictions aside, is this an issue our government should be concerning themselves with? In my opinion, absolutely not!! It should remain a choice for every individual. Besides, there are FAR too many more important issues our government should be spending their time addressing. The waste of taxpayer money in debating such social and moral issues is a greater crime than the action itself!!
I do not think that the govt. should be able to outlaw abortion. We have these break through court cases to move forward in human rights. It seems however that the present cabinet is working towards taking away more liberties than they are preserving. Look at the amount of liberties that are being taken away with things like the patriot act. Abortion can be good or bad depending on which situation its used in. I think that there should be a limit on the number of abortions a woman can have performed on her and once she reaches that limit can only receive the last abortion if she gets her tubes tied. Abortion cant be a form of birth control. Would America be better with or without abortion? The anwer is with abortion. If abortion were outlawed today the repercussions would be felt in the form of economic and personal troubles increasing. A lot of people dont see the types of environments the children would have grown up in. Would you like to live that life? The crime rates would probably start to go back up and the amount of money spent to support the lower class families would greatly increase. These are the types of things that have to be considered, and I hope they will be. Otherwise we will continue to move backwards instead of forwards because we will only see things in "right" and "wrong" without trying to come up with a solution that at least a decent sized majority can agree on.

[cocky4ever]

Not to mention that outlawing abortion just opens up the option of black market abortions. We would also probably see a large increase in miscarriages and still births by women who did something on their own to harm the fetus. Sounds a lot less safe that way.

[RW13]

exactly, same thing with the drug argument, if ppl demand it, the market, legal or not, will try to meet the demand. I think this is an area the gov't needs to avoid, just like religion, in SC, 2 state legislators are proposing a bill to post the 10 commandments in gov't buildings, and the sad part is that it could pass in this backwards state. I think this is a wrong move b/c not everyone is christian. This country was founded on religous freedom, that was the main reason for this country's relgious growth. My family left france in 1706 for religous freedom(they were protestant in catholic dominated france, funny thing though, my dad married a catholic woman, and I was raised catholic, still am, funny..) along with many other families. Anyways, religious freedom aside, I think it's a bad move for business and growth, think of all the non christian foreigners that come as professors, students, etc. with the university, the research and assets they bring to the state/country are invaluable, you can't even put a real price tag on it, I think allowing this nonsense is going to have far reaching negative consequences to this country....

[volimhtown]

exactly, same thing with the drug argument, if ppl demand it, the market, legal or not, will try to meet the demand. I think this is an area the gov't needs to avoid, just like religion, in SC, 2 state legislators are proposing a bill to post the 10 commandments in gov't buildings, and the sad part is that it could pass in this backwards state. I think this is a wrong move b/c not everyone is christian. This country was founded on religous freedom, that was the main reason for this country's relgious growth. My family left france in 1706 for religous freedom(they were protestant in catholic dominated france, funny thing though, my dad married a catholic woman, and I was raised catholic, still am, funny..) along with many other families. Anyways, religious freedom aside, I think it's a bad move for business and growth, think of all the non christian foreigners that come as professors, students, etc. with the university, the research and assets they bring to the state/country are invaluable, you can't even put a real price tag on it, I think allowing this nonsense is going to have far reaching negative consequences to this country....
I agree with you 100%. With the exception of money (of course), religion ironically is the last bastian of socially acceptable racism. I love the ironicism in the argument that right wing christians make that as long as, whatever the issue is, coresponds to their personal religious beliefs, then it's good for all people. How big of them to make those decisions for everybody. As long as it is done in the name of their God, that makes it OK. I tell you what, as soon as religious organizations start paying taxes like every other business does in this country, then you can have a hand in the laws that govern this land. Until then, keep your hatred for your perceived selected "sinners" in your churches and out of my government!!

[RW13]

yep, tax them and then they can have a sayso, BTW, what "money" part do you disagree with, just curious, not being argumentative.....

[volimhtown]

yep, tax them and then they can have a sayso, BTW, what "money" part do you disagree with, just curious, not being argumentative.....
Just speaking in terms of the economic devide in this country. The "haves'" voice in this country and it's decision making have a much greater say than those who "have not" and that's deemed socialy acceptable. That's to what I was referring!!

[cocky4ever]

Just speaking in terms of the economic devide in this country. The "haves'" voice in this country and it's decision making have a much greater say than those who "have not" and that's deemed socialy acceptable. That's to what I was referring!!
Good point. The "haves" make up a very small percentage of the population and make decisions that affect a very large percentage of the population.

[RW13]

now that I totally agree with, it's evident in all aspects of life throughout the entire country....

[rebeldude]

exactly, same thing with the drug argument, if ppl demand it, the market, legal or not, will try to meet the demand. I think this is an area the gov't needs to avoid, just like religion, in SC, 2 state legislators are proposing a bill to post the 10 commandments in gov't buildings, and the sad part is that it could pass in this backwards state. I think this is a wrong move b/c not everyone is christian. This country was founded on religous freedom, that was the main reason for this country's relgious growth. My family left france in 1706 for religous freedom(they were protestant in catholic dominated france, funny thing though, my dad married a catholic woman, and I was raised catholic, still am, funny..) along with many other families. Anyways, religious freedom aside, I think it's a bad move for business and growth, think of all the non christian foreigners that come as professors, students, etc. with the university, the research and assets they bring to the state/country are invaluable, you can't even put a real price tag on it, I think allowing this nonsense is going to have far reaching negative consequences to this country....

Wait a minute, You are catholic and you are opposed to posting the 10 commandments in Gov. buildings. I assume you don't practice.

[RW13]

I go occasionally to church, but let me tell you that I'm more spiritual now then I've ever been. I don't think it's right to force ideas/ideals on other ppl. I also believe that my taxes should not go towards a government sanctioned religion. Most catholics I know are not like what you just mentioned, you must be thinking Southern Baptists, b/c we're not that obnoxious about our religion. BTW let me just say that I don't think any religion is right, Buddism, Islamic, or any Christian, etc. I think we all have different names for the same power/force, and different techniques of staying in touch with power. You can't say one is right and one is wrong, it's just cultural differences, just like the different ways we developed language, food we eat, etc. I'm not a backwards moron, I'm very open minded and progressive, I'm very spiritual like I said earlier, and not with the church. But just with myself and my surroundings, I don't think you need an institution between you and your belief system....

[rebeldude]

If young girls and boys had the opportunity to learn about God in our public school systems, maybe abortion(drugs, alcohol, murder, rape etc.) would not be the issue it is today. Think about that for a minute. The word of God tells us, not to do these things and that sex is for a man and his wife. Not a couple of 9th graders. There has got to something to these laws guys whether you believe in God or not. If all people would just take the 10 commandments and live by them what kind of world would we live in. Think about That. The reason the world is headed in the direction it is today is because of the absense of God in peoples lives. If people would only follow the laws of God, the world would be so much different than it is. But since God gives us freewill and we choose not to follow his laws, we live in the world as it is, and it will get worse. Yes, I am a Christian, but I am not trying to persuade any of you to believe as I do. Just give you something to think about. Oh and by the way Christianity is not a religion, it is however, a relationship[I] with God through Jesus Christ. I could go on for days but I really don't want you guys to feel that I am pushing you to believe as I do, because I am not, however I do wish everyone was a Christian so that you could experience the love, peace and the grace of God as I do.

[Neo]

Wait a minute, You are catholic and you are opposed to posting the 10 commandments in Gov. buildings. I assume you don't practice.

I'm catholic and I do not support posting the Ten Commandments in government buildings. By doing that, the government is promoting Christanity above all other religions. That's exactly why our forefathers fought for our freedom against the British.

The greatest fallacy in this argument is when people say that this country was founded on Christanity. That statement couldn't be further from the truth. This country was founded on the basis of law and religious freedom. That's why we have the 1st Amendment that guarantees Seperation of church and state.

[Neo]

Christianity is not a religion, it is however, a relationship[I] with God through Jesus Christ.



Christianity is a religion. It is following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[rebeldude]

I go occasionally to church, but let me tell you that I'm more spiritual now then I've ever been. I don't think it's right to force ideas/ideals on other ppl. I also believe that my taxes should not go towards a government sanctioned religion. Most catholics I know are not like what you just mentioned, you must be thinking Southern Baptists, b/c we're not that obnoxious about our religion. BTW let me just say that I don't think any religion is right, Buddism, Islamic, or any Christian, etc. I think we all have different names for the same power/force, and different techniques of staying in touch with power. You can't say one is right and one is wrong, it's just cultural differences, just like the different ways we developed language, food we eat, etc. I'm not a backwards moron, I'm very open minded and progressive, I'm very spiritual like I said earlier, and not with the church. But just with myself and my surroundings, I don't think you need an institution between you and your belief system....

I Agree with alot of what you just said, (Not all) Your spiritual life is between you and God, and no one else, however the Bible tells me to meet/fellowship with other Christians, Therefore I am one of those that is at the Church every time the doors open(Except when Ole Miss is playing) (kidding). You mentioned obnoxious, yea there are some like that .I understand believe me, I was raised in the Southern Baptist church, But now I attend a non-denominational Christian church and I am much happier. I think I am going to leave this subject alone, the last time I got into a debate about Christianity it lasted for days, and I think alot of people got upset with me. LOL. Oh well they'll get over it. I'm not a back woods moron either, I'm just a Redneck.

[rebeldude]

Christianity is a religion. It is following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Exactly as I said it is a Relationship with God throught Jesus Christ. A religion covers to many other crazy things.( cults etc.)

[Neo]

Exactly as I said it is a Relationship with God throught Jesus Christ. A religion covers to many other crazy things.( cults etc.)


Anyway you mix, shake, or stir it, it's still a religion. Why try masking what it really is?

[rebeldude]

I'm catholic and I do not support posting the Ten Commandments in government buildings. By doing that, the government is promoting Christanity above all other religions. That's exactly why our forefathers fought for our freedom against the British.

The greatest fallacy in this argument is when people say that this country was founded on Christanity. That statement couldn't be further from the truth. This country was founded on the basis of law and religious freedom. That's why we have the 1st Amendment that guarantees Seperation of church and state.

Del, why do you do this to me? I really don't wan't to debate this with you because i have way to much respect for you opinions, but I have to ask you this. If you are a believer in God, why would you not stand up for your beliefs?
And at the time this country was founded what(as you call ) religion was being practiced by our founding fathers?


I won't debate this any further...

[rebeldude]

Anyway you mix, shake, or stir it, it's still a religion. Why try masking what it really is?

That's how I believe. :)

[volimhtown]

If young girls and boys had the opportunity to learn about God in our public school systems, maybe abortion(drugs, alcohol, murder, rape etc.) would not be the issue it is today. Think about that for a minute. The word of God tells us, not to do these things and that sex is for a man and his wife. Not a couple of 9th graders. There has got to something to these laws guys whether you believe in God or not. If all people would just take the 10 commandments and live by them what kind of world would we live in. Think about That. The reason the world is headed in the direction it is today is because of the absense of God in peoples lives. If people would only follow the laws of God, the world would be so much different than it is. But since God gives us freewill and we choose not to follow his laws, we live in the world as it is, and it will get worse. Yes, I am a Christian, but I am not trying to persuade any of you to believe as I do. Just give you something to think about. Oh and by the way Christianity is not a religion, it is however, a relationship[I] with God through Jesus Christ. I could go on for days but I really don't want you guys to feel that I am pushing you to believe as I do, because I am not, however I do wish everyone was a Christian so that you could experience the love, peace and the grace of God as I do.
I understand and respect what you are saying, but what you are suggesting is just too idealistic. You are also making the assumption that people are going to read and interpret "the word of God" as you do. There in lies your problem. How can you say with any certainty that your God and faith is right while all others are wrong?? All religions speak of peace and goodwill and of being true to your faith and the vast majority of human beings DO believe in some sort of higher being. Yet we still are faced with the problems in this society as you mentioned. The problem that we have is not in a "Godless society" but rather with people taking personal responsibility and "living the word" themselves!! Look at it this way, think of all of the subjects that are taught in schools....is everything the kids are taught actually retained?? Absolutly not!! So, what leads you to believe that introducing the Bible and Christian teachings into the schools is going to make a difference?? Not trying to be argumentative, but I believe that self proclaimed Christian parents need to lead BY EXAMPLE!!!! There is WAY too much HIPOCRACY with many of these people. How do you expect kids to take "The Word" seriously if their parents don't?? Just look at the divorce rate in this country and how much of it is a result of Adultery. In the majority of cases the guilty is also a proclaimed Christian. The last time I checked, Adultery is a sin. Yet, many of these same people want to condemn people for NOT believing in God or being in a same-sex relationship! If that's not the very definition of hipocracy, then what is?? What are we REALLY teaching our kids??? I like your ideas, Rebeldude, but until ALL PEOPLE take their own personal responsibility more seriously, it won't have the results that you suggest!! Just my humble opinion!!

[rebeldude]

[QUOTE=volimhtown]I understand and respect what you are saying, but what you are suggesting is just too idealistic. You are also making the assumption that people are going to read and interpret "the word of God" as you do. There in lies your problem. How can you say with any certainty that your God and faith is right while all others are wrong?? All religions speak of peace and goodwill and of being true to your faith and the vast majority of human beings DO believe in some sort of higher being. Yet we still are faced with the problems in this society as you mentioned. The problem that we have is not in a "Godless society" but rather with people taking personal responsibility and "living the word" themselves!! Look at it this way, think of all of the subjects that are taught in schools....is everything the kids are taught actually retained?? Absolutly not!! So, what leads you to believe that introducing the Bible and Christian teachings into the schools is going to make a difference?? Not trying to be argumentative, but I believe that self proclaimed Christian parents need to lead BY EXAMPLE!!!! There is WAY too much HIPOCRACY with many of these people. How do you expect kids to take "The Word" seriously if their parents don't?? Just look at the divorce rate in this country and how much of it is a result of Adultery. In the majority of cases the guilty is also a proclaimed Christian. The last time I checked, Adultery is a sin. Yet, many of these same people want to condemn people for NOT believing in God or being in a same-sex relationship! If that's not the very definition of hipocracy, then what is?? What are we REALLY teaching our kids??? I like your ideas, Rebeldude, but until ALL PEOPLE take their own personal responsibility more seriously, it won't have the results that you suggest!! Just my humble opinion!![/QUOTE

What I was refering to was the 10 Commandments in our schools. The laws of God(10 commandments)don't have to be interpreted. They are as they are. They say what they say.I was just saying what if. You are so right about parents leading by example(they don't) and Hypocracy( is rampant). I couldn't agree more. I Coach youth basketball that is competitive and not affliated with any Church group. Have done this for 9 years, and you would be amazed at how many kids know nothing about God, and have never heard of Jesus. It is sad, but true. IF the Commandments were still in the schools as they used to be, things could be different.

[volimhtown]

What I was refering to was the 10 Commandments in our schools. The laws of God(10 commandments)don't have to be interpreted. They are as they are. They say what they say.I was just saying what if. You are so right about parents leading by example(they don't) and Hypocracy( is rampant). I couldn't agree more. I Coach youth basketball that is competitive and not affliated with any Church group. Have done this for 9 years, and you would be amazed at how many kids know nothing about God, and have never heard of Jesus. It is sad, but true. IF the Commandments were still in the schools as they used to be, things could be different.
Agreed...the Ten Comandments regardless of your beliefs or religious affiliation are a good base of morals that all people should live by!! But, again, if the parents don't live by those rules, putting them in schools isn't going to make a huge difference in the minds of our children!!

[RW13]

Freedom folks, freedom, this country was founded on it, and will remain free. Freedom to choose a religion, and freedom from it. Get over yourselves, too many have made the ultimate sacrifice to protect us from zealots like you. BTW rebeldude, it's not catholics who want the ten commandments up, it's wacko southern protestants, the Judge in Alabama who refused to remove the monument was not catholic, I guess that's one of the things they taught you when you were a southern baptist, that somehow catholics are wrong and weird even though catholicism outdates southern baptists by thousands of years, not that that makes it better, but certainly more credible if the baptists are going to mouth off.....

[Neo]

Freedom folks, freedom, this country was founded on it, and will remain free. Freedom to choose a religion, and freedom from it. Get over yourselves, too many have made the ultimate sacrifice to protect us from zealots like you. BTW rebeldude, it's not catholics who want the ten commandments up, it's wacko southern protestants, the Judge in Alabama who refused to remove the monument was not catholic, I guess that's one of the things they taught you when you were a southern baptist, that somehow catholics are wrong and weird even though catholicism outdates southern baptists by thousands of years, not that that makes it better, but certainly more credible if the baptists are going to mouth off.....

Ditto that RW. Keep in mind, that judge was judging people for not obeying the law and then he defies the law when a higher court tells him to remove the monument. Now that's hypocracy for ya.

[rebeldude]

Ditto that RW. Keep in mind, that judge was judging people for not obeying the law and then he defies the law when a higher court tells him to remove the monument. Now that's hypocracy for ya.

I call that standing up for something you believe in. If you laid down everytime someone didn't agree with you Del, you would have nothing.

[rebeldude]

Freedom folks, freedom, this country was founded on it, and will remain free. Freedom to choose a religion, and freedom from it. Get over yourselves, too many have made the ultimate sacrifice to protect us from zealots like you. BTW rebeldude, it's not catholics who want the ten commandments up, it's wacko southern protestants, the Judge in Alabama who refused to remove the monument was not catholic, I guess that's one of the things they taught you when you were a southern baptist, that somehow catholics are wrong and weird even though catholicism outdates southern baptists by thousands of years, not that that makes it better, but certainly more credible if the baptists are going to mouth off.....

RW I never said it was Catholics, what I asked Del (being Catholic) was if he belived in God why would he not want the 10 Commandments displayed. I don't know where you got the impression I said Catholics were wierd or wrong. Help me out here, Im not mouthing Just offering opinions and I must say in a very Mature way, Unlike you. Please start reading prior to replying. Oh by the way the ultimate sacrifice was made by Jesus Christ, for you.

[rebeldude]

Agreed...the Ten Comandments regardless of your beliefs or religious affiliation are a good base of morals that all people should live by!! But, again, if the parents don't live by those rules, putting them in schools isn't going to make a huge difference in the minds of our children!!

Thank you Volim and you are right parents must help. IF the Commandments help only a little, in todays world that would be better than nothing.

[cocky4ever]

Del, why do you do this to me? I really don't wan't to debate this with you because i have way to much respect for you opinions, but I have to ask you this. If you are a believer in God, why would you not stand up for your beliefs?
And at the time this country was founded what(as you call ) religion was being practiced by our founding fathers?


I won't debate this any further...
I believe that truth belongs to everybody. Religions are like rivers and God is the Ocean. We all came from the same place so we must all go back to the same place. I have no problem with people practicing their religion. The only problem I have with the 10 commandments is "Thou Shall Put No Other Gods Before Me". That right there isolates believers of all other faiths. Also, guess who else stands up for their beliefs, Islamic Extremist.

[Neo]

Del, why do you do this to me? I really don't wan't to debate this with you because i have way to much respect for you opinions, but I have to ask you this. If you are a believer in God, why would you not stand up for your beliefs?
And at the time this country was founded what(as you call ) religion was being practiced by our founding fathers?


I won't debate this any further...


Standing up for what I believe in is fine. Forcing others to follow in my footsteps is wrong. I have my own religious beliefs and I do not think that people should be forced into my beliefs. If they follow willingly, that's different. (Namely that judge in AL dictating his beliefs to us)

This judge made me sick to my stomach. Here's a guy that has passed judgement using the rule of law on manyyyyy people. Then when the law is against him, it no longer applies??? How can people cheer this guy? That is about as double standard and hypocritical as you can get.

Did you know Thomas Jefferson REFUSED to sign the Bill of Rights until religious freedom was added? (1st amendment)

Everyone assumes that this country was founded on religion. It wasn't. It was founded on freedom and the basis of law. For those of you that doubt me, check out the book "The Federalist Papers". It was written by the people that wrote the US Constitution. (Thomas Jefferson, John Hancock, etc, etc)

Do you know why the Seperation of Church and state was put into the Constitution? Because under British law, if you did not follow the official state recognized religion, you were put to death for treason.

[RW13]

Freedom is precious, and delicate, we need to protect and prevent protestant fundamentalists (or anyone else) in this country to succeed in getting gov't to recognize a certain religion over another. It's great that you're devout, and christian, but you damn well cross the line when you want the gov't of the people, all people not just southern protestant christians, to sanction one marriage, or make laws based on that one relgion. I guarantee you this, people like me and Del, and there are many more like us who belive in the Bill of Rights, the constitution, and freedom for all in general, will fight to the end to stop people like you. Everyone in this country deserves freedom and many people will give their lives to stop the fundamentalists...

[rebeldude]

Freedom is precious, and delicate, we need to protect and prevent protestant fundamentalists (or anyone else) in this country to succeed in getting gov't to recognize a certain religion over another. It's great that you're devout, and christian, but you damn well cross the line when you want the gov't of the people, all people not just southern protestant christians, to sanction one marriage, or make laws based on that one relgion. I guarantee you this, people like me and Del, and there are many more like us who belive in the Bill of Rights, the constitution, and freedom for all in general, will fight to the end to stop people like you. Everyone in this country deserves freedom and many people will give their lives to stop the fundamentalists...

I never said anything about marriage or the Gov. recognizing one religion. I havn't crossed any lines and don't intend to. I have only offered opinions based on what I believe. Don't I have that freedom? I have been talking about the ten commandments and did you know most "Religions" have a set of commandments and do you know where most "religions" get there commandments from? I do. I really don't think I have done anything for you or anyone else to fight to the end to stop. I don't kill, I don't steal, I don't Curse, I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I pay my taxes, I work with children, I give to charitable organizations that help the less fortunate, I obey the laws and respect and love all people.. I would be a great next door neighbor.I live a good moral Life. Why would you want to stop people Like me? You know RW, I just don't understand that statement. "People like You" You said it was great that I was devout and Christian, so I assume you want to stop all Christians. That is exactly what the world needs. I never asked the Gov. to sanction one marriage,the people of this country did. And yes RW that is exactly what the Bill of rights and Constitution allows the people to do. (The marriage issue is going away) I guarantee you it is not only Christians opposing same sex marriage.(Gay marriage is impossible, define the word marriage. Union is a better word). Freedom is a wonderful thing. I agree with you on that.(Never said it wasn't) And since freedom is such a wonderful thing and everyone in this country deserves freedom How do you feel about the confederate battle Flag being removed from your state capital and the University of Mississippi.? Freedom for all huh, Just curious. No matter how free this country is and what rights you have and don't have, you will never please all the people all the time, I understand that, do you? If you don't you've got a lot of fighting to do.Sounds to me like your as strong in your belief of freedom as I am in Chistianity. RW I understand your belief and respect it. I wish you would mine. I still can't figure out why you think I started all this other stuff. (marriage).

[RW13]

two words; slippery slope......

[rebeldude]

two words; slippery slope......
No comprehend my friend.

[RW13]

Delorean ?

[Neo]

Delorean ?


Yeah! whatcha need?

[rebeldude]

Delorean ?
You don't need Dels help.

Really, opinion on the Flag.

[Neo]

You don't need Dels help.

Really, opinion on the Flag.

I thought that the flag should have been taken down off of the statehouse and placed where it is now. On a Confederate Monument on the statehouse grounds.

[RW13]

I wanted Del to talk about the Slippery Slope theory, where you give an inch, and a mile is taken, in regard to religion and gov't. As far as the confederate flag I don't think it should have been on the statehouse to begin with. We don't honor other countries by flying their flags and the C.S.A. should be no different. The CSA was a foreign country that the United States defeated. We don't fly the German flag, or the British flag over our soveirgn buildings, the CSA battle flag should have never flown over our statehouse....

[Neo]

I wanted Del to talk about the Slippery Slope theory, where you give an inch, and a mile is taken, in regard to religion and gov't. As far as the confederate flag I don't think it should have been on the statehouse to begin with. We don't honor other countries by flying their flags and the C.S.A. should be no different. The CSA was a foreign country that the United States defeated. We don't fly the German flag, or the British flag over our soveirgn buildings, the CSA battle flag should have never flown over our statehouse....


An example of the "Slippery Slope" theory in SC would be the NAACP's boycott of South Carolina.

The Governor David Beasley and the NAACP both agreed that if the Confederate Battle Flag was removed from the SH dome, they would cease and desist the boycott. Well low and behold, the state did it's part and the NAACP is still boycotting. That's only one example. I could give a lot more.

[Neo]

As for religion, if you allow the US Government to recognize Christianity, you are opening a door that you can NEVER close.

That's not what our founding fathers wanted and if we do that, we are going back to the way it was under British rule where people can be put to death for not agreeing with the majority.

"A pig has just as many rights as a man."
Larry Flynt 1979


http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/hustler.html

[rebeldude]

As for religion, if you allow the US Government to recognize Christianity, you are opening a door that you can NEVER close.

That's not what our founding fathers wanted and if we do that, we are going back to the way it was under British rule where people can be put to death for not agreeing with the majority.

"A pig has just as many rights as a man."
Larry Flynt 1979


http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/hustler.html

Well I hope the door never closes.

[RW13]

that's definately what we need....

[rebeldude]

that's definately what we need....

You are finally right!!

[RW13]

It's about time huh?

[Neo]

It's about time huh?


"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."

Thomas Jefferson

[RW13]

true, but Liberty and freedom mean nothing. The Protestant form of Christianity which BTW is only 500 years old is the end all be all on this planet, nothing else matters, everybody, everything else besides it is wrong and shall perish in hell....

[Neo]

true, but Liberty and freedom mean nothing. The Protestant form of Christianity which BTW is only 500 years old is the end all be all on this planet, nothing else matters, everybody, everything else besides it is wrong and shall perish in hell....



"The loathsome combination of Church and State."

Thomas Jefferson

[Neo]

"Religion has caused more harm than any other idea since the beginning of time. There's nothing good I can say about it. People use it as a crutch."

Larry Flynt

[cocky4ever]

Well I hope the door never closes.
I may be wrong, but from what I get from your argument is that the 10 commandments should be recognized by the whole country because it would make the whole country a better place to live in. How would you feel if fundamental Buddhist teachings were put in place of the 10 commandments? Would that be OK since it would make the country a better place? Buddhist are compassionate, peaceful, and loving towards all life. They have also never, to my knowledge, waged holy wars on each other. And I have studied all the major religions and some not so major. Buddhism would probably be better spiritually for this country than Christianity. Don't get me wrong I have nothing but the utmost respect for Jesus Christ and what he did, I just don't think I have to worship a man to get to heaven. I feel that the church is to Jesus what the US govt. is to the constitution. Jesus had basic teachings that if followed would make the world a better place. The constitution had basic teachings that, if followed would have made the world a better place. After creating the constitution the US govt. proceeded to commit genocide on countless tribes of Indians, enslave countless Africans, take over many countries, drop atomic bombs on Japan, etc.etc. The church kept the congregation clueless just like the US govt. They imprisoned peope who went against them like Galileo who said the Earth revolves around the Sun, went on crusades and wiped out countless people for their beliefs,etc.etc. Do you really want these two powers teaming up? Once a country recognizes a certain religion over others what you have is a dictatorship, just like north korea.

What got America this far is being open to all types of people. I have learned invaluable lessons from people of all beliefs. However, just because you are a Christian and a good person does not mean that all Christians are good people. Back to the topic for example. You may be against abortion and have every right to be and I respect you for it. However, someone else can be against abortion and blow up abortion clinics and murder doctors. When people are allowed to find their own truth they are more open to others and therfore more open to learn from others. When they are taught something from a young age they will not learn and will be destructive to whatever goes against what they are taught.

[Neo]

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

Thomas Jefferson


"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

James Madison

[RW13]

awesome post cocky, very well put, what if we were under buddhist rule, I mean, these christian fundamentalists don't really seem to try to think outside box whatsoever. Rebeldude, answer his scenerio....

[Neo]

awesome post cocky, very well put, what if we were under buddhist rule, I mean, these christian fundamentalists don't really seem to try to think outside box whatsoever. Rebeldude, answer his scenerio....

I won't say all Christians are like this, but in my experience most of them are the most judgemental people you could ever meet. If you don't believe what they believe in word for word, you are going to burn in hell. That kind of hatred will send them to hell. If I'm not mistaken, the bible preaches about not judging other people, but let God do it.

[RW13]

I thought so too, I thought God was supposed to judge....

[Neo]

I thought so too, I thought God was supposed to judge....


Those that claim to practice should practice what they preach so to speak. :)

[cocky4ever]

I won't say all Christians are like this, but in my experience most of them are the most judgemental people you could ever meet. If you don't believe what they believe in word for word, you are going to burn in hell. That kind of hatred will send them to hell. If I'm not mistaken, the bible preaches about not judging other people, but let God do it.
Exactly. Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged seems to be left out in most people's day to day lives. Who is to say that someone who is a Christian in this life wouldn't have turned out totally different if they grew up in a different environment? Say for instance, RebelDude grew up in India. His whole life he was taught a certain way a died at the ripe old age of 78 as a Bhuddist. If there is a hell would he go there? How could he if he didn't know any better because he was never shown the way of Jesus Christ? What can one person do in a lifetime to deserve an eternity in hell? How can a person know what is best for another soul? These are serious questions that arent talked about by the majority of society. The 2 most taboo subjects in this country are politics and religion. The 2 most divisive lines in this country are formed by govt. and religion. Until we start to talk about these subjects we will continue to, as a whole, be divided as a society.

[Neo]

Exactly. Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged seems to be left out in most people's day to day lives. Who is to say that someone who is a Christian in this life wouldn't have turned out totally different if they grew up in a different environment? Say for instance, RebelDude grew up in India. His whole life he was taught a certain way a died at the ripe old age of 78 as a Bhuddist. If there is a hell would he go there? How could he if he didn't know any better because he was never shown the way of Jesus Christ? What can one person do in a lifetime to deserve an eternity in hell? How can a person know what is best for another soul? These are serious questions that arent talked about by the majority of society. The 2 most taboo subjects in this country are politics and religion. The 2 most divisive lines in this country are formed by govt. and religion. Until we start to talk about these subjects we will continue to, as a whole, be divided as a society.


Well, I have always believed that regardless of someone else's faith, you are supposed to show compassion and love for your fellow man. Not pass judgement on him.

My biggest pet peeve is when Christians quote scripture to prove their point, but then ignore certain parts of the bible when it doesn't fit their argument. A prime example of that would be the "judging" that we just talked about.

[RW13]

Yeah, scripture isn't everything, I think in Laviticus(sp.?) part of the bible, it says something about incestuous rape being ok or something to that affect, it all really depends on interpretation. I bring this up b/c it was in one the textbooks in one of my classes last semester, it might not have been Laviticus, maybe something else. The same book of the bible also prescribes odd bathing behaviors that priests must abide by, which they don't today by the way. Are the priests going to go to hell? Anyways, I'm not entirely sure that's the book in the bible, or even if that is a book in the bible, anyone know what I'm referring to?

[Neo]

Yeah, scripture isn't everything, I think in Laviticus(sp.?) part of the bible, it says something about incestuous rape being ok or something to that affect, it all really depends on interpretation. I bring this up b/c it was in one the textbooks in one of my classes last semester, it might not have been Laviticus, maybe something else. The same book of the bible also prescribes odd bathing behaviors that priests must abide by, which they don't today by the way. Are the priests going to go to hell? Anyways, I'm not entirely sure that's the book in the bible, or even if that is a book in the bible, anyone know what I'm referring to?


There is a book called Leviticus. It's the third (3rd) book in the Old Testament.

[RW13]

that must be it then....

[Neo]

that must be it then....

Either way....

Ooooh! What do you think about the game RW?

[RW13]

damn, no comment, I feel embarassed just for kinda cheering for OU, I didn't like any of the two, but I liked OU better than those Pac-10 fruitcakes, jeez what a rout, has there ever been a rout like this in a NC game?

[Neo]

damn, no comment, I feel embarassed just for kinda cheering for OU, I didn't like any of the two, but I liked OU better than those Pac-10 fruitcakes, jeez what a rout, has there ever been a rout like this in a NC game?

the only one that comes to mind is the pasting of Florida by Nebraska by the tune of 62-24.

[Neo]

Hey! Like you said about California....

"The difference between Los Angeles and yogurt is that yogurt comes with less fruit."

Rush Limbaugh

[rebeldude]

"Religion has caused more harm than any other idea since the beginning of time. There's nothing good I can say about it. People use it as a crutch."

Larry Flynt

"There is no evidence that exposing my material is harmful to anyone"

Larry Flynt


Do you have children Del. I cannot believe you are quoting this guy.

[rebeldude]

awesome post cocky, very well put, what if we were under buddhist rule, I mean, these christian fundamentalists don't really seem to try to think outside box whatsoever. Rebeldude, answer his scenerio....

Thou shall have no other Gods before me.

[Payindews]

Ok....
Does our government have the right to allow abortions is more like it. Abortions should not be allowed for no reason what so ever. I know many of you are talking about "What if someone was raped?" Well to be honest with you, having the baby is not a crime but raping someone is. Abortions hopefully will become illegal when GW puts some conservative Supreme court justices in office and that will help.

[rebeldude]

Ok....
Does our government have the right to allow abortions is more like it. Abortions should not be allowed for no reason what so ever. I know many of you are talking about "What if someone was raped?" Well to be honest with you, having the baby is not a crime but raping someone is. Abortions hopefully will become illegal when GW puts some conservative Supreme court justices in office and that will help.

Boy are you going to get slammed :D

[Payindews]

uh oh...I didn't read any of the other posts since this is my first one on this thread.
Let the games begin afterall I am kinda bored this morning.

[RW13]

Nice copout rebeldude, by putting that you showed me that you have no answer and no thought process. These scenarios do not enter your mind whatsoever, it's just christianity (protestant BTW) or hell. Right? You're a real fool, not for being christian, having faith is a great thing, great for people, you're a fool for refusing to open your eyes to all of the human world, the world that a higher power put together, if anyone burns in hell it will definately be you for forsaking your fellow man, grow up.......

[rebeldude]

Nice copout rebeldude, by putting that you showed me that you have no answer and no thought process. These scenarios do not enter your mind whatsoever, it's just christianity (protestant BTW) or hell. Right? You're a real fool, not for being christian, having faith is a great thing, great for people, you're a fool for refusing to open your eyes to all of the human world, the world that a higher power put together, if anyone burns in hell it will definately be you for forsaking your fellow man, grow up.......

Cop out I don't think so. It is belief and a faith that I live by. Faith in Jesus Christ. You know it's kind of like the wind. You never see the wind, but you see it's effects. Sorry RW that is what i believe. You Call me a fool because I refuse to open my eyes to all of the human world. How do you make such statement about someone you don't know. Do you know what I did yesterday to help someone in need? Do you know what I did last night with Children that don't have fathers, (and these people are not Christians).Do you know what I am going to do tommorrow and Friday at a Tenn Youth convention. I do this simply because I do love other people. I care so much about other people that I put up with comments from people like you, Hoping that they will find the truth. Some won't, but that is their choice. Weren't you and Del just recently talking about Judgement, I haven't judged anyone have you? A Higher power, Explain that, I may not agree with you but I sure am curious to what higher power there is in your eyes. Don't think I haven't researched other "Religions" I have ,they make absolutely no since Period. All other religions are based on books written by a man, just like you and me. Buddism, is actually a philosophy based on a book written by a man! What happen after Nervana, I don't know and neither do Buddists, that is strange. I do have a little thought process, try this one. Do a study on a man named Saul, later Known as the Apostle Paul. He was educated, Rich and Evil.Something Happened to him on the way to Damascus to Kill Christians. His life changed. What happened? After his life changed he became poor and imprisoned several times. Where is the logic here, and what is the reason he made the decision he made. Not to mention His travels, and I remind you there were no airplanes or trains. I challenge you to research this, and tell me logically why a man would do this? By the way are you angry?

[rebeldude]

uh oh...I didn't read any of the other posts since this is my first one on this thread.
Let the games begin afterall I am kinda bored this morning.

I wish a wasn't so busy this morning so I could continue defending myself. They are killing me :D

[rebeldude]

Yeah, scripture isn't everything, I think in Laviticus(sp.?) part of the bible, it says something about incestuous rape being ok or something to that affect, it all really depends on interpretation. I bring this up b/c it was in one the textbooks in one of my classes last semester, it might not have been Laviticus, maybe something else. The same book of the bible also prescribes odd bathing behaviors that priests must abide by, which they don't today by the way. Are the priests going to go to hell? Anyways, I'm not entirely sure that's the book in the bible, or even if that is a book in the bible, anyone know what I'm referring to?

That is funny, please quote me scripture, I have no idea what you are talking about. no where in the Bible does it say incest or rape or ok. Please dude, Read Lev. Chapter 18 and chapter 20 . Info on sexual sin, another thing RW for you to completely understand scripture in the Old Testament you must be familiar with the times. So make sure you study the times of the Old testament or you will be completely lost. Man that is funny.

[RW13]

I'm angry about not going to a bowl. I could give a crap about your beliefs, I will lose no sleep over you. As far as other religions books being written by man, I hope you were making a joke there. You're telling me the bible was not written by men? That men had no part in it, ok... As far as the leviticus, I'm not gonna research the bible, no thank you on that, but I will post the textbook info for you on here tomorrow night, it's on my syllabus from Phil 211. Just give me till tomorrow night and I'll post that info, I won't have access to it till I get back to columbia. I don't lie and make stuff up or spin stuff to suit my motives....

[Neo]

"There is no evidence that exposing my material is harmful to anyone"

Larry Flynt


Do you have children Del. I cannot believe you are quoting this guy.

Yes I do. I have 4. Larry Flynt is a slimeball, but he's very intelligent and he sacrificed a lot for society as a whole. Did you know he was sent to jail four (4) different times standing up for our 1st Amendment rights?

[rebeldude]

Yes I do. I have 4. Larry Flynt is a slimeball, but he's very intelligent and he sacrificed a lot for society as a whole. Did you know he was sent to jail four (4) different times standing up for our 1st Amendment rights?

I commend him for standing up for what he believes in

[Neo]

"God created man. God created woman. God created us nude, so what's wrong with it? If you don't like nudity don't complain to me, complain to the manufacturer."

Larry Flynt 1986

[Neo]

I commend him for standing up for what he believes in


He stood up for us Rebel. For years, states were trying to ban his magazines and make them illegal while Playboy, Penthouse, etc, etc remained legal. In my eyes, that's a clear violation of his 1st Amendment rights and it's selective proscution.

[rebeldude]

I'm angry about not going to a bowl. I could give a crap about your beliefs, I will lose no sleep over you. As far as other religions books being written by man, I hope you were making a joke there. You're telling me the bible was not written by men? That men had no part in it, ok... As far as the leviticus, I'm not gonna research the bible, no thank you on that, but I will post the textbook info for you on here tomorrow night, it's on my syllabus from Phil 211. Just give me till tomorrow night and I'll post that info, I won't have access to it till I get back to columbia. I don't lie and make stuff up or spin stuff to suit my motives....

RW where do you keep getting this stuff? I didn't say you lied about anything. I didn't ask you to loose sleep and I hope you don't. I am just trying to share my opinions. Isn't this an opinion board and don't I have the right with the help of the 1st Ammendment to express my Christian beliefs, I never said the Bible wasn't Physically written by a man. Yes Physically the Bible was written by man, but the words came from God.These Men that wrote the Bible were told what to write by God. Just do the research on Paul. I understand that your not Christian and that is OK by me, I am not trying to influence your beliefs, I am just saying what I believe. I will tell you that you are just as stubborn about you beliefs as I am about mine. Thats OK. I won't be here for the next three days because of a Christian teen convention, but look forward to whatever it is that you are going to post tommorrow night when I get back next week.But I Guarntee you the Bible does not say Incest or Rape is OK.

[rebeldude]

"God created man. God created woman. God created us nude, so what's wrong with it? If you don't like nudity don't complain to me, complain to the manufacturer."

Larry Flynt 1986

Still can't believe you are quoting a man that you admited was a slimeball, OH well.

[rebeldude]

Yes I do. I have 4. Larry Flynt is a slimeball, but he's very intelligent and he sacrificed a lot for society as a whole. Did you know he was sent to jail four (4) different times standing up for our 1st Amendment rights?

Wow! last I heard Jesus Christ was Crucifed for us.

[Neo]

Still can't believe you are quoting a man that you admited was a slimeball, OH well.

I do not like Larry Flynt at all, but I do respect his position and what he has done against tyranny.

[Payindews]

What if Mary would have gotten an abortion? Where would we be today?

[Neo]

What if Mary would have gotten an abortion? Where would we be today?


I think it would be wrong for the US Government to tell a rape victim that she has to carry the baby. What about a victim of incest? Now I haven't been through any of those things, so I can't pretend to imagine what it's like, so I will just say that maybe with the abortion topic, it's not so "black and white". Until these lawmakers have been through something like that, they need to experience it before commenting on it. Just my 0.02.

[rebeldude]

I do not like Larry Flynt at all, but I do respect his position and what he has done against tyranny.
Del do you really think Flynt went to jail for our rights? Or could it have been for Self and I mean Multi Millionare and then more Millions.

[Neo]

Del do you really think Flynt went to jail for our rights? Or could it have been for Self and I mean Multi Millionare and then more Millions.

Well, he did go to the U.S. Supreme Court to fight the "tyranny" of Rev. Jerry Falwell.

Read the case yourself. Rev Falwell felt like Flynt and Hustler Magazine shouldn't be able to say anything they wanted and sued to shut Flynt/Hustler up. Now if this isn't a classic assassination case against the Freedom of Speech, I don't know what is.



http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/hustler.html

[rebeldude]

Yes I do. I have 4. Larry Flynt is a slimeball, but he's very intelligent and he sacrificed a lot for society as a whole. Did you know he was sent to jail four (4) different times standing up for our 1st Amendment rights?

You know I really don't want to go here, but I am. Flynt was not only headed up his pornographic magazine, but he was involved in drugs (with John Delorean) and with the mob,(wonder why he got shot) Not exactly the kind of person I would look up to regardless of how intelligent he was, and surely don't want my kids to Idolize him. Sorry Del but that is how I feel about this slimeball.

[Neo]

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/hustler.html

Jerry Falwell vs. Hustler Magazine
US Supreme Court

Chief Justice Rehnquist delivered the opinion of the Court:

"At the heart of the First Amendment is the recognition of the fundamental importance of the free flow of ideas and opinions on matters of public interest and concern. The freedom to speak one's mind is not only an aspect of individual liberty and thus a good unto itself but also is essential to the common quest for truth and the vitality of society as a whole. We have therefore been particularly vigilant to ensure that individual expressions of ideas remain free from governmentally imposed sanctions. The First Amendment recognizes no such thing as a "false" idea."

Supreme Court Justice Rehnquist 1988

BTW: Keep in mind, Justice Rehnquist is one of those "Conservative" judges that someone mentioned earlier.

[Payindews]

Victims of rape are a very small # of the abortions that are given each year. I don't think however there should be any no matter what the circumstance. Yes I agree rape is wrong and it shouldn't happen but getting an abortion isn't the answer. Rape prevention is a much better solution. I know we will not be able to stop all rapes but if we were to focus as much attention to that as we do debating abortion laws, where could we be?

[Neo]

You know I really don't want to go here, but I am. Flynt was not only headed up his pornographic magazine, but he was involved in drugs (with John Delorean) and with the mob,(wonder why he got shot) Not exactly the kind of person I would look up to regardless of how intelligent he was, and surely don't want my kids to Idolize him. Sorry Del but that is how I feel about this slimeball.


I hate to bust this on you about John DeLorean, but there is more than meets the eye in that case. You are looking and talking to an amateur DeLorean historian and Flynt had no connections to DeLorean nor was DeLorean convicted on drug charges. Do you wanna know why DeLorean wasn't convicted? Because the DOJ/DEA/FBI were out to get DeLorean because of his dealings with GM, Ford, Chrysler and the British Government and the jury saw it.

I have the unedited/uncensored federal bust video of DeLorean with the sound intact. The FEDS went to DeLorean with drugs, he didn't contact them. The most DeLorean does with the alleged cocaine is touch it and say "Is that real?" When the FEDS mention that he can sell it and such, he then said he didn't want anything to do with it and that's when they busted him.

What you never heard about was the fact that the DEA/FBI's informant was a drug addict and he was paid for every high profile conviction that they got. I bet you didn't know that the head of the FBI met with the president of GM 6 months after DeLorean left to make his own car in Northern Ireland.

Could the meeting have to do with drugs or did it have to do with the BIG American three putting pressure on the FED's to get DeLorean on anything. DeLorean was a threat to the US Auto industry as a whole. He himself invented the Pontiac GTO, Olds 442 and several other high end/fast American cars. He also still owns several patents on safety and performance parts.

The USA vs. John Zachary DeLorean case was as bad as Waco and Ruby Ridge except that no one was killed in the DeLorean case.

http://www.adhonep.org.br/images/pt/adhonep/galeria/galeria_12.gif

Look at history,

Preston Tucker: Charged with fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud.
John Z. DeLorean: Charged with fraud, conspiracy and drug traffic.
G.L. Weiss (Packard): Charged with fraud, potential investors intimidated
Studebaker: Same as all the rest.

Everytime a new American automaker came to play, they mysteriously had charges brought on them, were discredited or they just died. Hmmmmmmm.

[cocky4ever]

Cop out I don't think so. It is belief and a faith that I live by. Faith in Jesus Christ. You know it's kind of like the wind. You never see the wind, but you see it's effects. Sorry RW that is what i believe. You Call me a fool because I refuse to open my eyes to all of the human world. How do you make such statement about someone you don't know. Do you know what I did yesterday to help someone in need? Do you know what I did last night with Children that don't have fathers, (and these people are not Christians).Do you know what I am going to do tommorrow and Friday at a Tenn Youth convention. I do this simply because I do love other people. I care so much about other people that I put up with comments from people like you, Hoping that they will find the truth. Some won't, but that is their choice. Weren't you and Del just recently talking about Judgement, I haven't judged anyone have you? A Higher power, Explain that, I may not agree with you but I sure am curious to what higher power there is in your eyes. Don't think I haven't researched other "Religions" I have ,they make absolutely no since Period. All other religions are based on books written by a man, just like you and me. Buddism, is actually a philosophy based on a book written by a man! What happen after Nervana, I don't know and neither do Buddists, that is strange. I do have a little thought process, try this one. Do a study on a man named Saul, later Known as the Apostle Paul. He was educated, Rich and Evil.Something Happened to him on the way to Damascus to Kill Christians. His life changed. What happened? After his life changed he became poor and imprisoned several times. Where is the logic here, and what is the reason he made the decision he made. Not to mention His travels, and I remind you there were no airplanes or trains. I challenge you to research this, and tell me logically why a man would do this? By the way are you angry?


How close minded can you be? You may be a good person, I dont know, but from what I can tell you are very close minded. Just like most of the Christians I have known. The Bible was obviously written by man because it contradicts itself so much. Why is there an Old Testament and a New Testament. The word of God shouldn't change right? In the Old Testament it said "An Eye for an Eye." Jesus came in the new testament and said "Turn the other cheek." There are many more contradictions but I will move on to other points. What happens after Nirvana? What happens after Heaven and Hell? It is absurd in someone elses religion but makes perfect sense in yours. I try to be the best person I can be. However, I do not think that there is a heaven or hell. I think Jesus was put on this Earth to help people, but a lot of other people were too. Why would God create billions of galaxies with billions of stars so he can put life on one planet and then play a game with the people. He makes it bad to have too much sex, but makes it feel so good. He gives us so many earthly pleasures only to tell us it is wrong to participate in them. Why does he make it so hard to get to heaven? When an innocent child dies their soul goes to heaven. Why do they get a free trip to heaven while most of us are stuck on Earth trying to resist all of these great things? What about the billions of people who never hear the word of Christ? What happens to them. If they go to heaven why do they get a free ticket? If they go to hell why are the damned for eternity for something they couldn't help? What can one person do in a lifetime that would make them deserve an ETERNITY in hell? Why is it setup like this? Does your God really have a sense of humor that is that sick? Just think about it for 60 whole seconds. ETERNITY in hell. You can believe whatever you want to and say that all other religions make no sense. Heaven and Hell make no sense to me. I can't help that I feel that way. It just doesnt make sense to me like other religions dont make sense to you. I hope that you will give your opinion on some of those questions when you get back so I can get a better idea of how you think. You may even make me see some things in a different way. However, please dont just quote the Bible for your responses. That tells me that you don't think for yourself and just walk around like a parrot repeating what you have been told without rationalizing it in your brain first. I cant learn from people like that because they cant learn for themselves.

[Neo]

Ya know Cocky, even though I was raised Catholic I have questions too and you brought them up in your post. For instance;

You need to do this and that and if you don't you are going to burn for all eternity in hell, but remember....GOD LOVES YOU!

Look but don't touch, taste but don't swallow.

That's just a few things I think about. If something good happens, praise him. If something bad happens, it's God's will. Am I the only one that sees the oxymoron in that statement?

With the Earth in the shape it's in now, in a sick way, God looks like an office temp just there to collect a paycheck.

[rebeldude]

cocky, first of all Read all of the post I have not been quoting scripture, RW said the
there was somewhere in the book of Lev. that said it was ok. to practice incest and
rape. In response to that I asked he read Lev. chapter 19 and 20. And I asked
that he tell me what scripture says that, I don't know it.That was it.
What happens after Nivana, I don't know and Buddast also admit they don't know.
After heaven and hell, nothing happens it is eternal.You have alot of Good legitimate
questions, and I will say the Bible is a very complex book that takes years of studying
to understand everything, I don't have an answer for everything in the Bible. but what
I do know I believe with all my heart, mind and soul. Other Religions that I have studied
'don't make sense that is why I am a Christian. That is just simply put what I Believe
Don't think I haven't questioned the death of an Innocent child. I do not understand
that, but I don't think any other religion has an answer for that one either. Does
an innocent child go to Heaven? We are born sinners. I do not know. I do know this
I am not closed minded, but it bothers me when someone wants to actually argue
a point they no absolutely nothing about.(The Bible says its ok to rape). All they want to do is just rub because I am not agreeing with them. One big difference, i am seeing anger from some, but I am not angry and don't intend to, I only have to please God.I am no more close minded Than these people are that are telling me I am wrong,
They are just standing up for what they believe, Me too. That is ok.
I do not push people to believe the way I do, I learned not to do that a long time ago, but I will voice my opinion on my belief, and if you don't believe that is ok. Seek advice for you questions they are very ligit. I am not a theological major, but someone can help you if you want them to.

[cocky4ever]

cocky, first of all Read all of the post I have not been quoting scripture, RW said the
there was somewhere in the book of Lev. that said it was ok. to practice incest and
rape. In response to that I asked he read Lev. chapter 19 and 20. And I asked
that he tell me what scripture says that, I don't know it.That was it.
What happens after Nivana, I don't know and Buddast also admit they don't know.
After heaven and hell, nothing happens it is eternal.You have alot of Good legitimate
questions, and I will say the Bible is a very complex book that takes years of studying
to understand everything, I don't have an answer for everything in the Bible. but what
I do know I believe with all my heart, mind and soul. Other Religions that I have studied
'don't make sense that is why I am a Christian. That is just simply put what I Believe
Don't think I haven't questioned the death of an Innocent child. I do not understand
that, but I don't think any other religion has an answer for that one either. Does
an innocent child go to Heaven? We are born sinners. I do not know. I do know this
I am not closed minded, but it bothers me when someone wants to actually argue
a point they no absolutely nothing about.(The Bible says its ok to rape). All they want to do is just rub because I am not agreeing with them. One big difference, i am seeing anger from some, but I am not angry and don't intend to, I only have to please God.I am no more close minded Than these people are that are telling me I am wrong,
They are just standing up for what they believe, Me too. That is ok.
I do not push people to believe the way I do, I learned not to do that a long time ago, but I will voice my opinion on my belief, and if you don't believe that is ok. Seek advice for you questions they are very ligit. I am not a theological major, but someone can help you if you want them to.


OK I can accept that response. I dont really care what kind of beliefs a person has as long as it makes them a good person.You seem to care about others and thats mostly what its all about anyway.

[rebeldude]

Ya know Cocky, even though I was raised Catholic I have questions too and you brought them up in your post. For instance;

You need to do this and that and if you don't you are going to burn for all eternity in hell, but remember....GOD LOVES YOU!

Look but don't touch, taste but don't swallow.

That's just a few things I think about. If something good happens, praise him. If something bad happens, it's God's will. Am I the only one that sees the oxymoron in that statement?

With the Earth in the shape it's in now, in a sick way, God looks like an office temp just there to collect a paycheck.

God has given people every opportunity in the world to live his way, Now God is saying Ok. do it your way, Therefore you are correct The world is in a sick way, but hey he gave us a choice, not Gods fault. :)

[rebeldude]

OK I can accept that response. I dont really care what kind of beliefs a person has as long as it makes them a good person.You seem to care about others and thats mostly what its all about anyway.

Cocky, I was really surprised at your response, After your first post I figured you would have really bashed me, Your response has made my day! :) Thank you for that, and you know people that think like you just gives me that extra little boost to continue doing the Lords work.

[SeattleGamecocks]

Government has no right to get involved in abortion. You don't start to vote 18 years after conception. For years the right wing has played the "less government control" card. They are hypocrites. I don't want the gov't to have that power. And the same sentiment goes for a lot of right wing policy.

[cocky4ever]

Cocky, I was really surprised at your response, After your first post I figured you would have really bashed me, Your response has made my day! :) Thank you for that, and you know people that think like you just gives me that extra little boost to continue doing the Lords work.
Glad I helped make your day a little better.

[Neo]

Government has no right to get involved in abortion. You don't start to vote 18 years after conception. For years the right wing has played the "less government control" card. They are hypocrites. I don't want the gov't to have that power. And the same sentiment goes for a lot of right wing policy.


Register and vote Libertarian. :)

[volimhtown]

Victims of rape are a very small # of the abortions that are given each year. I don't think however there should be any no matter what the circumstance. Yes I agree rape is wrong and it shouldn't happen but getting an abortion isn't the answer. Rape prevention is a much better solution. I know we will not be able to stop all rapes but if we were to focus as much attention to that as we do debating abortion laws, where could we be?
Since you are so desparately wanting to engage in this debate, I'll throw a hook!!
Let me ask one fundamental question....If my wife, sister, or friend wanted to have an abortion, regardless of the reason, who are YOU to have a say in wether she will or won't??? There in lies the problem for me!! Abortion is not a choice for me personally, BUT it certainly should not be at the discretion of anyone not personally involved or impacted by the decision.
What in the hell is rape prevention???? Are women supposed to walk around in body armor OR are they just not to leave the house. What a rediculous term!!

[Neo]

Since you are so desparately wanting to engage in this debate, I'll throw a hook!!
Let me ask one fundamental question....If my wife, sister, or friend wanted to have an abortion, regardless of the reason, who are YOU to have a say in wether she will or won't??? There in lies the problem for me!! Abortion is not a choice for me personally, BUT it certainly should not be at the discretion of anyone not personally involved or impacted by the decision.
What in the hell is rape prevention???? Are women supposed to walk around in body armor OR are they just not to leave the house. What a rediculous term!!

The US Government needs to butt out. That's all I have to say. :)

[SeattleGamecocks]

Register and vote Libertarian. :)

i am a registered voter and I did vote for Harry Brown in 96 and 2000, believing that choosing the lesser of two evils (the major parties) is still choosing evil. However the past 4 years showed just how evil and deceitful the current administration is and I cast my vote in hopes of defeating Karl Rove and his co-president Bush. :(

[cocky4ever]

Since you are so desparately wanting to engage in this debate, I'll throw a hook!!
Let me ask one fundamental question....If my wife, sister, or friend wanted to have an abortion, regardless of the reason, who are YOU to have a say in wether she will or won't??? There in lies the problem for me!! Abortion is not a choice for me personally, BUT it certainly should not be at the discretion of anyone not personally involved or impacted by the decision.
What in the hell is rape prevention???? Are women supposed to walk around in body armor OR are they just not to leave the house. What a rediculous term!!
Good point. Let's just outlaw abortions and spend much more money on rape prevention, kinda like drug prevention. After all drug prevention seems to be working so well. I even have a slogan. Just say NO. Not to mention that at this point I dont think this country has money to spend on anything except fixing our defecit. Give me a damn break.

[troxel3]

Abortion is murder. Period.

[JBryant12]

Its not always that black and white.

[JBryant12]

If a woman get raped ans she becomes pregnant do you think she wants to have the baby? No. She doesnt want to have a living reminder of the rape and if she did have the baby do you really think she would be able to love the baby the same way she would had she wanted to have the baby? What should she say when the kid grows older and asks aobut his/her dad?

[SeattleGamecocks]

Abortion is murder. Period.

That may be your belief, based on your religion. So, you can sit in judgement of "murderers" if you please. I personally disagree w/ this point of view. I'm sure I won't be able to convince you otherwise as religious conviction gives people tunnel vision (why there will NEVER be peace in the middle east).

[Neo]

That may be your belief, based on your religion. So, you can sit in judgement of "murderers" if you please. I personally disagree w/ this point of view. I'm sure I won't be able to convince you otherwise as religious conviction gives people tunnel vision (why there will NEVER be peace in the middle east).


Yeah! Let's get the big, bad, imperial US Government back into our lives even more. :rolleyes:

This is not a USG issue. Nor is it the governments business what I do in MY bedroom with MY wife. Typical liberal mindset. Let's get government in everything. At the rate the liberals are going, we won't be able to use the restroom without a government issued permit.

This kinda garbage makes me wanna puke. :mad: These politicians get on their proverbial soap boxes and try to tell women what they should do with their bodies?

Let some 300lb man has his way with a few of these scumrag politicians and see how they vote then.

[Neo]

Abortion is murder. Period.

Are you a religious man Troxel? :confused:

[dudeman0501]

Abortion is murder. Period.

I was going to stay out of this thread, but I have to say something about this post.

I agree 110% with it. It don't get much clearer than that, folks.

[Neo]

I was going to stay out of this thread, but I have to say something about this post.

I agree 110% with it. It don't get much clearer than that, folks.

We welcome your opinion too Dude...Don't feel left out! I surely don't stay out of the "hot" topics. :)

[cocky4ever]

Its not always that black and white.
EXACTLY. People like to build up a nice little bubbles and then live safely within their own confines without caring what the rest of society thinks. In this post I may have said things that may have offended some people, but that was not my intentions. I have just offered insightful points to some of the problems that our society, and world faces. I have met people from many walks of life and have used their experiences to learn for myself. Judegement is not for humans to place on one another. I may not agree with other people, but I dont know what life they have lived. If I had lived that life I would probably be the same way. Until we can start to try to understand each other and help each other we will never get anywhere. Every person you meet is a part of God so you can learn from them. However, when we build up such strong ideals in our heads that we cant see things from another point of view we are blocking out lessons that could help us in our own life. Close mindedness has killed more people than any other thing in the history of the Earth. Look at all the religous wars, crusades, Hitler, etc. We like to think that as a society we are far more advanced than any other time in civilizations history. However, we still operate on the same ideals: fear, ignorance, and an unwillingness to accept anything that goes against what we believe. Until we stop seeing things in " Black and White", like you said, society will continue to operate on those same basic concepts.

[rebeldude]

I was going to stay out of this thread, but I have to say something about this post.

I agree 110% with it. It don't get much clearer than that, folks.

Where were you when I needed you/ :)

[rebeldude]

That may be your belief, based on your religion. So, you can sit in judgement of "murderers" if you please. I personally disagree w/ this point of view. I'm sure I won't be able to convince you otherwise as religious conviction gives people tunnel vision (why there will NEVER be peace in the middle east).

As so with non-religious people.

[Neo]

As so with non-religious people.

Rebel,

More non-practicing people are less judgemental and more tolerant of other people than Christians as a whole. :)

Those are the facts. Prime example, watch ol' Jerry Falwell. That sucker cannot go through a show without judging or criticizing at least one person.

Double standard????

[rebeldude]

Rebel,

More non-practicing people are less judgemental and more tolerant of other people than Christians as a whole. :)

Those are the facts. Prime example, watch ol' Jerry Falwell. That sucker cannot go through a show without judging or criticizing at least one person.

Double standard????

Del you are good at statisics, so show me factual stats on Non-practicing people being less judmental than practicing Christians,(impossible) otherwise that is just an opinion. Not Fact. Don't get me wrong I respect your Humor. While you mention Jerry Falwell quite often, he is just like some other preachers such as but not limited to Benny Hin, Tammy Baker and whatever her husbands name was. Try mentioning some really good Christian preachers, Billy Graham, Joyce Meyers, Charles Stanley and many more. And stay away from Larry Flynt. By the way, everybody has Double standard one way or another, Remember we are all Human.

[OrangeCrush]

This has turned into quite a thread. I guess it is time for me to put my .02 in. First, I do not believe in abortion as a use of birth control. In fact, I believe I am proof of why abortion should not happen for this reason. I was adopted upon my arrival in this world. My birth-mother was not capable of giving me much of a life as she was extended beyond her means with kids all ready, a low paying job, and no husband/man to help. My birth-father was not around and would never be of help. When adopted, I got two loving parents who have done everything in their powers to teach me wrong from right, give me an oppurtunity to succeed in life, and treated me as if I was their creation. I will talk to anyone that will listen that adoption is so much better abortion. The power to give life is temendous and should not be taken lightly.

Abortion because of rape, incest, or caring for the health of mother is another issue. I do not see how anyone can disagree with abortion if a choice has to made between aboriton and saving the mother compared to no aborition and the mother losing her life. As far as rape goes, it is a very tramatic expierence and the thought of the mental damage that could be done by making a rape victim carrying a child made of rape is to severe. Why should the mother take the risk of mental damage because someone violated her? If you need to label me, then call-me pro-choice, but my choice is life. It would please me if children under the age of 18 had to have their parents with them to get an abortion. As I know it, the parents do not have to be there.

I will do what I can to make people understand that life is grand and should be valued. Being a man, I have a hard time agreeing with the passing of laws that try and control the body of a woman. I believe that all of us should be working in teaching children about prevention. Abstinence is the best and safest way to avoid having a child prematurely. It is a hard sale with "getting it on" being so much fun. The next best form is condoms and products made with the same intent. One would hope that parents would be pro-active in teaching their kids, but it is not always the case. Not that this thread needs another question, but when/should the schools start teaching about protected sex? I am thinking 7th grade, but that is just me.

As far as the Flynt quote that says religion has no value, the man has no clue. While I am not a card-carrying member of the Christian party, to deny the good that has come because of it is just foolish. Religion gives many people a place to belong in a positive way. They do a lot of charity work and try to better many communities. Most of the basic morals(lie, cheat, steal, murder) hold true throughout many religions and through life regardless of any religious affilitiation. To deny a group that does do this amount of good is foolish in my opinion. Is the Christian party perfect? No, there are not(just as none of us are). It just chaps my hide that people could support a statement as such as Flynt's when I have seen first hand what the positives can be from such a caring group.

[JBryant12]

EXACTLY. People like to build up a nice little bubbles and then live safely within their own confines without caring what the rest of society thinks. In this post I may have said things that may have offended some people, but that was not my intentions. I have just offered insightful points to some of the problems that our society, and world faces. I have met people from many walks of life and have used their experiences to learn for myself. Judegement is not for humans to place on one another. I may not agree with other people, but I dont know what life they have lived. If I had lived that life I would probably be the same way. Until we can start to try to understand each other and help each other we will never get anywhere. Every person you meet is a part of God so you can learn from them. However, when we build up such strong ideals in our heads that we cant see things from another point of view we are blocking out lessons that could help us in our own life. Close mindedness has killed more people than any other thing in the history of the Earth. Look at all the religous wars, crusades, Hitler, etc. We like to think that as a society we are far more advanced than any other time in civilizations history. However, we still operate on the same ideals: fear, ignorance, and an unwillingness to accept anything that goes against what we believe. Until we stop seeing things in " Black and White", like you said, society will continue to operate on those same basic concepts.

I agree 100% with what you just said.
"Remember before you pass judgement that not everyone has had the advantages you have"-The Great Gatsby by Fitzgerald

[SeattleGamecocks]

Del you are good at statisics, so show me factual stats on Non-practicing people being less judmental than practicing Christians,(impossible) otherwise that is just an opinion. Not Fact. Don't get me wrong I respect your Humor. While you mention Jerry Falwell quite often, he is just like some other preachers such as but not limited to Benny Hin, Tammy Baker and whatever her husbands name was. Try mentioning some really good Christian preachers, Billy Graham, Joyce Meyers, Charles Stanley and many more. And stay away from Larry Flynt. By the way, everybody has Double standard one way or another, Remember we are all Human.

I can't give statistics, but I can give testimony and I'll keep it brief. I grew up in small very christian community. And the same people that preached living right and doing God's will practiced the "love thy neighbor as thyself" part only if you were white and had only white friends and agreed wholly w/ them. (there's the PC version ;) ) I know its off topic, but this experience of hypocrisy and hatred lead me to be the heathen that I am. There are some heathens who are contemptuous of the faithful, but my experience is that on the whole they are MUCH more tolerant and accepting of others. And logically so. If God is on your side, people who disagree must be wrong. Sorry if this offends anybody but that's my perspective.

[JBryant12]

To each his own

[SeattleGamecocks]

The one smoking the cigarette ;-)

[rebeldude]

I can't give statistics, but I can give testimony and I'll keep it brief. I grew up in small very christian community. And the same people that preached living right and doing God's will practiced the "love thy neighbor as thyself" part only if you were white and had only white friends and agreed wholly w/ them. (there's the PC version ;) ) I know its off topic, but this experience of hypocrisy and hatred lead me to be the heathen that I am. There are some heathens who are contemptuous of the faithful, but my experience is that on the whole they are MUCH more tolerant and accepting of others. And logically so. If God is on your side, people who disagree must be wrong. Sorry if this offends anybody but that's my perspective.

You know you are right, there are a lot of proclaimed Christians, that live the Holy life on Sunday only, I see that even today in my own church, but I Follow Christ, My time in church and prayer is between me and God. I have to please only God. I do the things I do for God. I have alot of non-Christian friends, and I do not ever tell them they are wrong however they believe, that is not my place.If you notice all the I's, Well, I don't worry about the proclaimed Christians that much I am mainly concerned about my relationship with God. It doesn't bother me how anyone else believes everyone has a choice I do hope they make the right one, one day. The proclaimed Christian is what gives Christianity a bad name. I am not offended, by your post, believe me.

[rebeldude]

This has turned into quite a thread. I guess it is time for me to put my .02 in. First, I do not believe in abortion as a use of birth control. In fact, I believe I am proof of why abortion should not happen for this reason. I was adopted upon my arrival in this world. My birth-mother was not capable of giving me much of a life as she was extended beyond her means with kids all ready, a low paying job, and no husband/man to help. My birth-father was not around and would never be of help. When adopted, I got two loving parents who have done everything in their powers to teach me wrong from right, give me an oppurtunity to succeed in life, and treated me as if I was their creation. I will talk to anyone that will listen that adoption is so much better abortion. The power to give life is temendous and should not be taken lightly.

Abortion because of rape, incest, or caring for the health of mother is another issue. I do not see how anyone can disagree with abortion if a choice has to made between aboriton and saving the mother compared to no aborition and the mother losing her life. As far as rape goes, it is a very tramatic expierence and the thought of the mental damage that could be done by making a rape victim carrying a child made of rape is to severe. Why should the mother take the risk of mental damage because someone violated her? If you need to label me, then call-me pro-choice, but my choice is life. It would please me if children under the age of 18 had to have their parents with them to get an abortion. As I know it, the parents do not have to be there.

I will do what I can to make people understand that life is grand and should be valued. Being a man, I have a hard time agreeing with the passing of laws that try and control the body of a woman. I believe that all of us should be working in teaching children about prevention. Abstinence is the best and safest way to avoid having a child prematurely. It is a hard sale with "getting it on" being so much fun. The next best form is condoms and products made with the same intent. One would hope that parents would be pro-active in teaching their kids, but it is not always the case. Not that this thread needs another question, but when/should the schools start teaching about protected sex? I am thinking 7th grade, but that is just me.

As far as the Flynt quote that says religion has no value, the man has no clue. While I am not a card-carrying member of the Christian party, to deny the good that has come because of it is just foolish. Religion gives many people a place to belong in a positive way. They do a lot of charity work and try to better many communities. Most of the basic morals(lie, cheat, steal, murder) hold true throughout many religions and through life regardless of any religious affilitiation. To deny a group that does do this amount of good is foolish in my opinion. Is the Christian party perfect? No, there are not(just as none of us are). It just chaps my hide that people could support a statement as such as Flynt's when I have seen first hand what the positives can be from such a caring group.


Awesome and thank you!!!!!!!!!!

[Tator]

Some here are equating morals with religion. Granted, religion has shaped our morals but even non-believers share a moral outlook nearly the same as believers. These aspects of morality are nearly uniform when comparing all religions. So, would being a moral person mean that you are representing all religion?
Murder=bad, Rape=bad, etc.

Abortion is, IMO, a moral not religious issue, should the govt be able to outlaw it. Yes. If you say "no", let me ask you this:
What gives the govt. the right to outlaw:
1. a mothers "choice" to kill her 1day to 17 year old child?(once it gets here, the mother no longer has a choice?)
2. my choice to kill someone who ran me off the road?
3. my choice to kill a person that beat me up 11weeks ago? (that's how long you have to be pregnant before they'll perform an abortion)
etc, etc, etc.

Why can they do this? Because these actions effectively eliminate the murderee's freedom to continue their lives. Also because the majority of the public has stated they supported this outlawing. They BELIEVE it is wrong. Are they forcing their beliefs on those who think this is OK?

What if a woman was raped? Why must the child have to die? Will it make the mother feel like she is getting back at her rapist by killing a child that is partly his? The "it'll be a constant reminder of the rapist" arguement holds no water with me. Mainly because I haven't seen any evidence that this is the case and she can always offer the child up for adoption.

What if it's a child created by incest? For those who say this is allowable, why? Be cause incest is bad? Who said so? Why are you telling me it is bad? Oh, the genetic thingy, the baby will be deformed or retarded. So instead of giving it a chance at life, we should kill it and not give it a chance.

The only reason I would even consider, would be if the mother's life is at stake though, with medical techniques advancing the way they are, those in this category are a shrinking number.

A little late, I know. But I couldn't leave this one be.

[Tator]

To those who state that a mother has a right and a freedom, according to our founding documents, to choose what happens to her body, I ask one question.

Why, in this great land of rights and freedoms for all persons, are you so willing to deny a child those same rights and freedoms?

Earlier, someone spoke of hypocracy, I can see none greater......

[SeattleGamecocks]

[QUOTE=Tator]To those who state that a mother has a right and a freedom, according to our founding documents, to choose what happens to her body, I ask one question.

Why, in this great land of rights and freedoms for all persons, are you so willing to deny a child those same rights and freedoms?

[QUOTE]

B/C there is no child.

[Tator]

Posted by SeattleGamecocks:
B/C there is no child.

When IS there a child, at the moment of birth? When the cord is cut? When it's able to sustain it's life without help from the mother?

If you hold to the last point, do you consider people who depend on breathing machines, dialasys(sp?), pace makers to live simply some type of tissue mass? No, they are still people, they just need help to live. Same as a child in the womb.

[SeattleGamecocks]

When IS there a child, at the moment of birth? When the cord is cut? When it's able to sustain it's life without help from the mother?

If you hold to the last point, do you consider people who depend on breathing machines, dialasys(sp?), pace makers to live simply some type of tissue mass? No, they are still people, they just need help to live. Same as a child in the womb.

I wasn't allowed to vote on the 18th anniversary of my conception rather on my 18th birthday. And you did provide the answer to your first question... When it's able to sustain it's life without help from the mother. 18 years later they can vote too.

And your comparison is not legitimate, since those people are alive and no I do not think they are simply tissue mass. But to expound on it, I do support the right to "pull the plug" when it is the more compassionate option.

[Tator]

I think my comaprison is very legitimate since you seem to equate being "alive" or "viable" with self sustained life.

My point was, that you can't use the ability to independently sustain life as the measuring tape for being "alive". If you did, MANY people in the world who can no longer self sustain their lives would have to be reclassified from "alive" to "not alive". By needing a machine/implant/outside force to sustain their lives (short term or long term) and by applying your theory, they have effectively returned to a state equal to that of a child in the womb. Thus, they are no longer "alive" and no longer have any right to life.

Ever wonder why they call it your birthday and not your alive day? Because you were NOT imbued with life on the day you were born. Do me a favor and look at your birth certificate, notice it says "certificate of live birth". This would suggest that you were alive at the time of your birth, not brought to life due to your birth. IF that was the case they would issue a "certificate of life".

While stationed in South Korea, I learned that Koreans DO count the months spent in the womb, from conception, as part of the childs age. Making a child that would be 3 months old in the U.S., a year old in South Korea.

As far as the compassionate option, I'd leave it up to the person in question.

[uscballer101]

Yeah, I don't think its correct to take away the woman's right for that option though...because thats what it is her right to have that operation done...its her body that would be carrying the child...

[cocky4ever]

Indeed this is a hot topic with many good points made from a lot of different perspectives. There is something I have thought about before and figured I would ask here. Do Christians believe that an aborted child's soul goes to heaven? We dont really know when the fetus acquires a soul. I think that is the main wild card in this whole debate. I know that one person doesnt speak for a whole belief system but I would appreciate some different thoughts on that subject.

[Tator]

Yeah, I don't think its correct to take away the woman's right for that option though...because thats what it is her right to have that operation done...its her body that would be carrying the child...

I think it's rather odd that the father gets left out of this decision making prcoess. Sure it's the woman's body, but she didn't get pregnant on her own. According to Roe-v-Wade, the father has no say/right/responcibility until the child is out of the womb. Then, if he doesn't want the child, he becomes a dead-beat dad. But if the mom doesn't want the child and aborts it, she has exercised her right to do so. Seems to be a double standard there.......

[Tator]

Indeed this is a hot topic with many good points made from a lot of different perspectives. There is something I have thought about before and figured I would ask here. Do Christians believe that an aborted child's soul goes to heaven? We dont really know when the fetus acquires a soul. I think that is the main wild card in this whole debate. I know that one person doesnt speak for a whole belief system but I would appreciate some different thoughts on that subject.

As you said, I cannot speakfor an entire belief system, but I will offer my view.

I think we aquire our souls at conception. I see that as the starting point in the process of our lives and, in my thinking anyway, would seem the logical time at which the soul enters the body.

As to whether the souls of aborted children go to heaven, I believe that they do. For the simple reason that they have comitted no sin nor are they even able to comprehend what sin is.

[SeattleGamecocks]

As you said, I cannot speakfor an entire belief system, but I will offer my view.

I think we aquire our souls at conception. I see that as the starting point in the process of our lives and, in my thinking anyway, would seem the logical time at which the soul enters the body.

As to whether the souls of aborted children go to heaven, I believe that they do. For the simple reason that they have comitted no sin nor are they even able to comprehend what sin is.

But they haven't been baptized. No attonement for the original sin which they were bo.... conceived with. ;)

[rebeldude]

Exodus 21:22 God Made a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, I guess the unborn mean something to God.

Scientific:
Just 18 day after conception, the baby's heart begins to beat. At six weeks, brain waves can be measured. At eight weeks the vital organs are functioning and fingerprints have formed. At 9 weeks the unborn baby is able to feel pain. Thousands of Abortions are performed each year after this point in the pregnancy. To think about that is sickening, If the womb had a window there would be no abortions.

Baptism of the unborn,
Ask yourself this, Is baptism neccessary for salvation? Under some circumstances I don't believe so. God knows you before conception, who you are and what you will become. The final judgement is God's.

People will argue the word of God until the end of time. The Bible will never ever be translated to a complete 100% understandable version. You know why? The human brain cannot comprehend what God is. God has given us a free will to choose the norrow path or the wide one. I've made my choice.

Go back to scientific, If the thought of that does not bother you, well you don't have much of a heart.

Tater is right, your soul begins at conception. You are then a part of Gods plan.

[SeattleGamecocks]

The devil must have gotten my heart when I sold him my soul down at the crossroads
---lml. bwaahaahaaa

As for the Bible which was written by man, keep it out of my government.

[rebeldude]

The devil must have gotten my heart when I sold him my soul down at the crossroads
---lml. bwaahaahaaa

As for the Bible which was written by man, keep it out of my government.

Man of the world... :eek:

[RW13]

Keep it out of the Govt and let people decide if they want religion or not, this country was founded on ppl who left another country because of religous persecution, how come the southern relgious right forgets this or CHOOSES to ignore it? Freedom of religion, and freedom from religion, choices=freedom, freedom=choices. BTW Christianity was not the first organized religion in human history despite what people may CHOOSE to belive.....

[Neo]

Keep it out of the Govt and let people decide if they want religion or not, this country was founded on ppl who left another country because of religous persecution, how come the southern relgious right forgets this or CHOOSES to ignore it? Freedom of religion, and freedom from religion, choices=freedom, freedom=choices. BTW Christianity was not the first organized religion in human history despite what people may CHOOSE to belive.....

I have to agree with RW & Seattle. Practicing a religion is fine and dandy, just keep it OUT of my government. Our forefathers risked their lives to give us this free society that everyone enjoys, to repeal what they have created would be a great injustice.

I'll go toe-to-toe with anyone about religion and government.

[JBryant12]

Im with you on that Delo religion and Government should be sperate...

[RW13]

I'm not so sure about the new name, DeLoreanfan was pretty damn original, why the switch?

[JBryant12]

Yeah i liked the delorean fan maself but its his name to switch

[SeattleGamecocks]

Man of the world... :eek:

Not quite sure your meaning. Man of THIS world? Heathens and other non christians can be spiritual beings too, so don't judge me unless a burning bush has actually told you you're right.

People came to the western hemisphere for freedom of religion (at least the Europeans did) and we have a clearly stated separation of church and state in our constitution. That right there should end the legality of abortion issue.

[Neo]

I'm not so sure about the new name, DeLoreanfan was pretty damn original, why the switch?

I'm ju