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[nova]

No.  Not right now.  Still more benefit to being part of the union than apart from it.  That and if we wait long enough without any changes being made, there won't be any Union to secede from...

shamoan, on 10 April 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

i would vote no....not many people thin that the south should or would ever try to secede.  i would support a system like the united kingdom has.  a unified army and and a few services, but wales, england, scottland, and northern ireland are allowed to govern themselves essentially.  apply that to the united states and the northeast can have their gay marriage, we can have our guns and whatnot.  everybody wins.  why do we have to make each other miserable imposing our beliefs on an entirely different segment of the us population?

Wellll, in theory that's what we're supposed to have now.  At least that was the original intent for having a federal republic.  The feds took care of defense, international relations and a few other things but the majority of governance was done on the state and local level.

The idea was states could try different things and if people really didn't like what their state was doing, they could pack up and leave, voting with their feet.  Pushing things at the federal level curtials that significantly.

[JDawg]

ElephanTideis, on 11 April 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

I've often wondered what would happen if we split the country in half with repubs and dems going their seperate ways.

We'd find crap to argue about amongst ourselves.

[bbqit]

zartan, on 10 April 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Let's play out some rhetorical situations here. Say Obama wins in November and the Red states (I'm assuming you are all in Southern states) go so batshit about this that they hold a secession referendum.

You in or out of the Union?

give us a couple more teams and we will in football

[NextYearIsHere]

Zee, on 10 April 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

That would suck for the blue states.  How would they fund all of their wasteful government programs and "free" healthcare with all the businesses and people who actually produce flocking to the red states?

My answer is no, by the way.  That would be inhumane.  The red state red cross within 20 years would be sending emergency food and care across the new border.

Penguin, on 11 April 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

dems would borrow money from reps, eventually go broke, look at europe and america 100 years ago if you wish to see that.

On average, the Red states get far more in aid than they pay into it, so you're both wrong. The Blue States are the ones shelling out money for us on the whole.

[Penguin]

NextYearIsHere, on 11 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

On average, the Red states get far more in aid than they pay into it, so you're both wrong. The Blue States are the ones shelling out money for us on the whole.

oh so prototypical blue states such as california and michigan have all the money? What kind of koolaid are you drinking? Illinois is one of the most broke states in the nation....let me just get you a list, maybe it will open your eyes a little. Only red state I see on this list is Texas, and thats because of immigration law.  The 10 Most Debt-Ridden States In America - Business Insider

now its YOUR turn to present some facts, how about you find me the LEAST in debt states, this should be fun.

Edited by Penguin, 11 April 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[SECats]

No...I love this country with all my heart.  I feel very blessed to have been born here and don't want it changed beyond recognition.  I'm afraid Obama will do whatever he can to destroy our way of life (yes, I mean that completely) as we know it.  But I'll be here to help rebuild if that starts in January of 2013 or 2017....let's all pray it's this January.

FCN...you act like Christianity is making the country a worse place.  That's proposterous.  Morality in this country is going down the crapper and a little more "religion" and morality could only make the place better.  It sure beats the alternative.

J-Dawg...you are spot on dude.  Bravo!

[NextYearIsHere]

Penguin, on 11 April 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

oh so prototypical blue states such as california and michigan have all the money? What kind of koolaid are you drinking? Illinois is one of the most broke states in the nation....let me just get you a list, maybe it will open your eyes a little. Only red state I see on this list is Texas, and thats because of immigration law.  The 10 Most Debt-Ridden States In America - Business Insider

now its YOUR turn to present some facts, how about you find me the LEAST in debt states, this should be fun.

My statement was pointing out that the states with their hand out are often the Red ones... the ones that grandstand about personal responsibility and entitlements. You want to talk about spending... And that's a fine topic as well, the point is however that the Red States preach one thing while feasting from the Federal table that was largely paid for by the Blue States:

"The report shows that of the 32 states (and the District of Columbia) that are "winners" -- receiving more in federal spending than they pay in federal taxes -- 76% are Red States that voted for George Bush in 2000. Indeed, 17 of the 20 (85%) states receiving the most federal spending per dollar of federal taxes paid are Red States. Here are the Top 10 states that feed at the federal trough (with Red States highlighted in bold):

States Receiving Most in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. D.C. ($6.17)
2. North Dakota ($2.03)
3. New Mexico ($1.89)
4. Mississippi ($1.84)
5. Alaska ($1.82)
6. West Virginia ($1.74)
7. Montana ($1.64)
8. Alabama ($1.61)
9. South Dakota ($1.59)
10. Arkansas ($1.53)

In contrast, of the 16 states that are "losers" -- receiving less in federal spending than they pay in federal taxes -- 69% are Blue States that voted for Al Gore in 2000. Indeed, 11 of the 14 (79%) of the states receiving the least federal spending per dollar of federal taxes paid are Blue States. Here are the Top 10 states that supply feed for the federal trough (with Blue States highlighted in bold):

States Receiving Least in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. New Jersey ($0.62)
2. Connecticut ($0.64)
3. New Hampshire ($0.68)
4. Nevada ($0.73)
5. Illinois ($0.77)
6. Minnesota ($0.77)
7. Colorado ($0.79)
8. Massachusetts ($0.79)
9. California ($0.81)
10. New York ($0.81)

http://taxprof.typep...tates_feed.html

[Penguin]

NextYearIsHere, on 11 April 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

My statement was pointing out that the states with their hand out are often the Red ones... the ones that grandstand about personal responsibility and entitlements. You want to talk about spending... And that's a fine topic as well, the point is however that the Red States preach one thing while feasting from the Federal table that was largely paid for by the Blue States:

"The report shows that of the 32 states (and the District of Columbia) that are "winners" -- receiving more in federal spending than they pay in federal taxes -- 76% are Red States that voted for George Bush in 2000. Indeed, 17 of the 20 (85%) states receiving the most federal spending per dollar of federal taxes paid are Red States. Here are the Top 10 states that feed at the federal trough (with Red States highlighted in bold):

States Receiving Most in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. D.C. ($6.17)

2. North Dakota ($2.03)
3. New Mexico ($1.89)
4. Mississippi ($1.84)
5. Alaska ($1.82)
6. West Virginia ($1.74)
7. Montana ($1.64)
8. Alabama ($1.61)
9. South Dakota ($1.59)
10. Arkansas ($1.53)

In contrast, of the 16 states that are "losers" -- receiving less in federal spending than they pay in federal taxes -- 69% are Blue States that voted for Al Gore in 2000. Indeed, 11 of the 14 (79%) of the states receiving the least federal spending per dollar of federal taxes paid are Blue States. Here are the Top 10 states that supply feed for the federal trough (with Blue States highlighted in bold):

States Receiving Least in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

1. New Jersey ($0.62)

2. Connecticut ($0.64)
3. New Hampshire ($0.68)
4. Nevada ($0.73)
5. Illinois ($0.77)
6. Minnesota ($0.77)
7. Colorado ($0.79)
8. Massachusetts ($0.79)
9. California ($0.81)
10. New York ($0.81)

http://taxprof.typep...tates_feed.html

this is essentially a list of states that give away more money to their people on welfare than they use building infrastructure....this has nothing to do with which states are more or less fiscally responsible with their tax dollars. Your point is moot. What you don't understand is what, by law, the government is allowed to pay for and what states must pay for themselves. Essentially if you want to create a socialist state in the US you have to pay for those benefits yourselves, the laws created in states like New York and Ca are not covered under law for federal aid because they are fiscally irresponsible and based off of economic theories that have been proven over and over again not to work.


top 15 states in respect to population receiving welfare. Oh look, they are all blue except Tennessee. The Biggest US Welfare States  - CNBC

Edited by Penguin, 11 April 2012 - 02:33 PM.

[SECats]

Doing this by state is very misleading.  It should be done by voting contengency.  I bet the % of people that vote Democrat and receive government assistance would be astronomical.

[A10Rebel]

California is broke for the record...I believe you get an I.O.U for your tax refund.

"That's as good as money, sir. Those are I.O.U.'s. Go ahead and add it up, every cent's accounted for. Look, see this? That's a car. 275 thou. Might wanna hang onto that one. "

[NextYearIsHere]

Penguin, on 11 April 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

this is essentially a list of states that give away more money to their people on welfare than they use building infrastructure....this has nothing to do with which states are more or less fiscally responsible with their tax dollars. Your point is moot.


top 15 states in respect to population receiving welfare. Oh look, they are all blue except Tennessee. The Biggest US Welfare States  - CNBC

No, this a list of those that have their hand out. Then it's a list of the states that give more than they receive, thus allowing the others a free ride. Mississippi alone takes more than $2 for every $1 they pay.

You want to tell me which states provide more assistance to their folks... well fine. Let them run their state how they wish. But you can't run from the fact that the Red States have their hand out to the Federal Government whose existence they curse with every breath

SECats, on 11 April 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Doing this by state is very misleading.  It should be done by voting contengency.  I bet the % of people that vote Democrat and receive government assistance would be astronomical.

Tons of welfare queens and elderly eating up $$$$$$$ in federal healthcare dollars vote for the GOP

[SECats]

NextYearIsHere, on 11 April 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

No, this a list of those that have their hand out. Then it's a list of the states that give more than they receive, thus allowing the others a free ride. Mississippi alone takes more than $2 for every $1 they pay.

You want to tell me which states provide more assistance to their folks... well fine. Let them run their state how they wish. But you can't run from the fact that the Red States have their hand out to the Federal Government whose existence they curse with every breath





Tons of welfare queens and elderly eating up $$$$$$$ in federal healthcare dollars vote for the GOP

If you think the CLEAR majority of government assistance comes from anyone other than Democrats then you are clueless.

[Darth Vader]

Question is moot. If Barry gets 4 more years there won't be anything left to secede from.  But I think these words are as true today as they were 235 years ago....

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

[ForwardRebels]

J-Dawg, on 10 April 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

C'mon, man.... have I ever tried to "impose my beliefs" on you?...As far as I'm concerned, you are always the most outspoken one. You do realize that its not exactly like Initiative 26, right?  Also, thats one of the beauty's of this country... you don't like MS laws, you can move to a state that suites you better.  And it's only what you make it.... the job market in MS has improved lately (auto plants etc).... only certain groups make such big deals about abortion laws.

Couldn't let ya slip that one by, brother.  Even with all of her flaws and past, I love Mississippi with everything I got.

Sorry if I popped off a little, but I had the same convo recently with a friend.  He takes your stance.  People make MS out to be so terrible... because of our strong conservative and religious beliefs.  Is it wrong to be conservative or religious?  MS has as much of a right to be conservative and religious as California has to be hippy and whatever else they are... you get my point.  It's OK for folks to harp on how much MS sucks for the reasons you listed, but the same folks that harp on MS get offended if you bash, chastise or criticize a more liberal, less religious place.  Just more of this double standard thats been killin' me lately.  Folks scream equality, liberty and tolerance yet are intolerant of anything conservative or religious.  I'm just tired of the hypocrisy.

And FCN... I'm not aiming that at you, bud, the topic just got me off on a tangent.  I've really hit a boiling point lately and have decided to start speaking up on some issues that I'm generally very private about.  You could probably attribute it to the fact that I've moved out of Starkville, out of the influences of college kids both liberal and conservative... started the rest of my life and starting fully making my own decisions and caring totally for myself.... things are beginning to become alot clearer to me since I've gotten out of the influence of other people and on my own.

1. No, you have not. However, there are about 2.5 million other ppl in this state.
2. I am outspoken in the issue of religion, no doubt about that bro.   I've lived in another country for a time. I've seen how it is without a single mythology trying to be imposed on everyone and I liked it. I liked the fact that in the UK, when the issue of religion was brought up, I could state that I am an atheist and not have ppl look at me strange or even threaten me. (True story; about a year ago, I was at a party near some apartments close to campus when one of my more douchebag friends had gotten totally plastered and tread upon a party no-no (religion) and mentioned that I was a non-believer. I was threatened by a whole group of ppl simply for not sharing their rubbish belief system. That, my friend, is absolute ing bullshite. I like the fact, and even find it ironic, that in a country with a state religion, I felt more free on the subject of morality, religion.myhtology, etc than I ever have in the state of Mississippi.
3. Indeed, only certain groups do make an issue of them. The problem is, they do not and cannot accept defeat. As you remember, when we voted on 26, it was defeated by a 58% to 42% margin.
4. I also love Mississippi. It is the most unique state in the US. I just wish people could move forward into the future. I wish that ppl in this state could accept that non everyone shares their beliefs and spare us all the preaching all the time. I do not apologize for being so outspoken on this issue b/c for a long time I was silent on it. No longer though.
5. There is nothing at all wrong with Conservative beliefs and I am not making this state out to be terrible. I am quite Conservative on many issues. What does irk me though, is that we are 50th in nearly everything, save religiousosity in which we are #1, and everyone is happy about it. As I have stated before, I have no problem with moderates of religion. I enjoy talking with them on issue both religious and non-religious. It is the fundamentalists which I have no time for and lose my temper with.
6. I am not being hypocritical. I am a fierce defender of the 1st Amendment. Just like everyone else, I have some pet peeves. Also, when have I gotten offended when you bash a liberal, hippy, blue state? Hell, I bash them with you for having dumbass monetary policies.
7. I'm glad that you have spoken out. Were this real life, I'd buy ya a beer. I am a firm believer of the saying "The squeakiest wheel gets the grease. " Why do you think I speak out on this site and in real life? It's only by dialogue that progress can be made. I applaud your standing up for what you believe in. You stand up for what you believe in and I will continue to do the same. (Currently I am in contact with the Freedom From Religion Foundation about numerous local violations of the Separation of Church and State in public schools; they include having the 10 Commandments up, school-sanction (teacher)-led prayer, etc. )

[ForwardRebels]

SECats, on 11 April 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

FCN...you act like Christianity is making the country a worse place.  That's proposterous.  Morality in this country is going down the crapper and a little more "religion" and morality could only make the place better.  It sure beats the alternative.

No, what I am essentially stating is this; your religion and any other is perfectly fine. Just keep it out of the affairs of the nat'l and state and local gov'ts.

Your religion's morality is a joke. Since you opened the box, I'm pouncing on it. Let's look at the christian religions morality, shall we? (Spare me the crap about context as well. If I quoted John 3:16 or the 23rd Psalm you wouldn't be complaining.)

Luke 14:26 (NIV)
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."    ---->Do you, SECats, hate your father and mother, wife and children, in addition to your own life? If not, then you are not a christian.

Now let's look at what the bible has to say about your favorite subject, porn.
Ezekiel 23:19-20 (NIV)
"Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."  (Pretty pornographic, no?)

I won't bother posting the treasure trove of morality that is the OT, but I would remind you to not dismiss it b/c it has not been done away with, with the suicide of christ unto himself. He states that he came not abolish the law but to fulfill it.

A secular gov't is what the Founding Fathers intended. This is exceedingly clear. Enjoy your religion to the fullest; just keep it out of the nat'l, state, and local gov'ts. That is unless, you want other religions to get the same treatment yours does, and I'm sure you would not be welcoming of a fundie muslim praying to allah before a town hall meeting.