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CAPA - college athletes players union

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56 replies to this topic

#31
nova

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View PostJoeGator, on 03 February 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

The real problem here stems from how much money university athletic departments make, and now that everyone is suddenly aware, they want their piece.  Maybe we should do away with academic scholarships too, since they will be considered professional students by the IRS.

The IRS makes no distinction.  I paid taxes on every penny I got over and above the cost of tuition, room and board, which when I started as an undergrad amounted to about $2k a semester.

View PostJoeGator, on 03 February 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

I didn't say there was a difference between your on-campus engineering job and an athletic scholarship.
You can be true to your school just like any other dawg because you're NOT going to the highest bidder, because you aren't worth all that much to an organization that large.

Really?  Because I had quite a few choices as to where to work, all paying different amounts.  I chose the one that was the best situation.  I got accepted to Rice and a couple other places, but MSU backed a dumptruck load of $ up to my house.  It was my preferred school anyway but still, given the choice between paying to go to MSU and getting paid to go somewhere else, my butt was gone.

View PostJoeGator, on 03 February 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

This is how the world functions.
People at the top always reap the majority of the benefits.
Players need to learn to deal with it unless they would prefer to hurt their draft status by not playing in college at all.

Yeah, and owners make more than players, but at the same time, when the services of a person are valuable and they're not easily replaceable, then they get a bigger slice of the pie.

And do you honestly think the NFL is going to give up the most talented football players in favor of Div III equivalent guys just because they don't play colleg ball?  The only reason the NFL even notices CFB exists, is because it functions as an unpaid minor league for them.

If the best athletes are suddenly not playing CFB anymore, I guarantee  the NFL will go the direction of the MLB, set up minor league teams and start drafting kids right out of HS.  Salaries would be capped under the CBA and they'd make a rule where you have to play 3 years in the minors before going to the bigs, and suddenly  colleges are cut out of the pie.  For that matter, there's nothing stopping them from offering 4 years of tuition as part of the draft package since the increase to the salary is fairly minimal in the grand scheme.

Edited by nova, 03 February 2014 - 11:01 AM.


#32
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View PostJoeGator, on 03 February 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

They don't care if they ruin college athletics forever, as long as they get that money.

If you want to blame someone for ruining things, then blame the universities and the NCAA who've been more than happy to suck in millions in revenue and pay fat salaries to executives and coaches.  They're the ones that made it a business long ago...

#33
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View Postnova, on 03 February 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

If you want to blame someone for ruining things, then blame the universities and the NCAA who've been more than happy to suck in millions in revenue and pay fat salaries to executives and coaches.  They're the ones that made it a business long ago...

So you don't think it's enough to get a free Bachelor's degree, a free living arrangement, free tutoring, free meals at any time of day, free clothes and gear, and a free place to showcase your talents to the NFL?
All of that free for 4-5 years.
Why is that not enough for a college football player?

Edited by JoeGator, 03 February 2014 - 11:50 AM.


#34
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View PostJoeGator, on 03 February 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

So you don't think it's enough to get a free Bachelor's degree, a free living arrangement, free tutoring, free meals at any time of day, free clothes and gear, and a free place to showcase your talents to the NFL?
All of that free for 4-5 years.
Why is that not enough for a college football player?

Our opinions don't matter for Posted Image.  The only opinions that matter about what constitutes "enough" reward for effort, are the two parties involved in the transaction, in this case the players and the universities.  The fact of the situation is that one party to the transaction is starting to feel like they're not being adequately rewarded for the value they bring to the business compared to what the other party in the transaction is getting.

If you assume it costs the university $50k/year, the 85 man football scholarship roster costs the university $4.25 million a year.  Just the SEC network is about to bring in $28 million a year to the schools, not to mention other TV rights, ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, etc etc etc.

As a staunch proponent of the free market for EVERYTHING, labor included, I think the players have every right to try and get whatever they can out of the deal.  When faced with what is essentially a price fixing cartel, a union is a legit way of doing that.  We can easily let the market sort things out.

In the market based scenario, if major college athletics is really about education, then a union is of basically no threat to the universities.  If the players strike they'll be easily replaced by Div III level talent, nobody will care about the drop off in quality of the on field product, tickets will still be sold, TV money will still keep flowing keeping the university happy and the Div III athletes will just be happy they've got a degree, because they really have no hope at the NFL, and the top level talent will just be left out in the cold.

The only way a union is a threat to the universities, is if they really are a busines, and really only care about the money and fans will respond to a substandard on field product by not spending $ and not watching, drying up all sorts of revenue.

I suspect the latter scenario is a lot more likely than the former however....

ETA

If you think you aren't getting a big enough piece of the pie from your employer based on the $ the company is making, do you just sit there and think "Ahh, I should be happy with $X, insurance and a 401k" or do you start trying to get some more, either through negotiation or job shopping?  I know what I do....

Edited by nova, 03 February 2014 - 12:13 PM.


#35
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So your entire point of view is that the players have the right to try and make some money from playing in college?
No one would argue that.

#36
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View PostJoeGator, on 03 February 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

So your entire point of view is that the players have the right to try and make some money from playing in college?
No one would argue that.

Yep, I'm not for or against them getting paid, I'm just looking at this realistically.  Every single other human being on this planet tries to get as much as they possibly can from the effort they put in, but let college athletes do the same all you hear is "spoiled entitled brats"  and "they should be happy with what they're given."  People should remember those words the next time they go ask their bosses for a raise or change jobs to get a bigger paycheck.

Realistically when you're faced with a cartel, the only way to fight back is a union.  That's specifically why the NFL has a players union and CBA.  And anyone being intellectually honest about things recognizes that the NCAA is nothing but a cartel, one specifically designed to keep "salaries" set at the cost of tuition.  It's also a cartel that claims to appropriate an athletes likeness for all time just by virtue of accepting an athletic scholarship.  The very businesslike desire to own a likeness and thus make money off a likeness forever, is directly at odds for being "only about education."  If it's all about education then the rights to an athletes likeness should revert when they leave school....

Edited by nova, 03 February 2014 - 12:40 PM.


#37
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View Postnova, on 03 February 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Yep, I'm not for or against them getting paid, I'm just looking at this realistically.  Every single other human being on this planet tries to get as much as they possibly can from the effort they put in, but let college athletes do the same all you hear is "spoiled entitled brats"  and "they should be happy with what they're given."  People should remember those words the next time they go ask their bosses for a raise or change jobs to get a bigger paycheck.

If they approached it more tactfully, I think it would be different.
Instead, their main message is that they are owed something and entitled to a cut because the ADs are making a lot of money.

#38
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It's also worth noting, that in virtually any other industry, cartel actions to drive down wages, like what the NCAA does, are considered violations of antitrust statutes and would be subject to legal sanctions....

#39
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View PostJoeGator, on 03 February 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

If they approached it more tactfully, I think it would be different.
Instead, their main message is that they are owed something and entitled to a cut because the ADs are making a lot of money.

They probably could be more tactful, but at the same time why does tact matter.  The boss making millions while you make comparatively little when you bring 99% of the value to the enterprise is a good argument for a raise because when it's all said and done, people don't buy tickets to see ADs hob knob is suits, don't watch TV feeds of the AD office, don't buy 3 piece suits with the AD name on the back and don't buy AD simulation video games.   The only people not getting a decent cut of the proceeds are the athletes responsible for at least half (coaches being the other half) of everything people are willing to pay for.

I can totally see where they're coming from...

#40
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Here guys, just sign this scholarship agreement, which is worth $250k over your 5 year college career, and in return during the same timespan, we'll collectively make $80 billion and oh BTW we'll own your likeness and continue to make money it forever.  Sounds great right?  That's a square deal huh?

#41
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View Postnova, on 03 February 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

Here guys, just sign this scholarship agreement, which is worth $250k over your 5 year college career, and in return during the same timespan, we'll collectively make $80 billion and oh BTW we'll own your likeness and continue to make money it forever.  Sounds great right?  That's a square deal huh?

Why shouldn't the ADs do that when they currently have the right to?

#42
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View PostJoeGator, on 03 February 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Why shouldn't the ADs do that when they currently have the right to?

My point is that it's silly to claim it's "all about the education" when everything one side of the deal does is singly focused on generating every dollar it can in perpetuity at the extent of the other side.  That's a business and if they're a business that makes athletes employees.

If they really were an organization focused on providing education, there would be caps on non-scholarship expenditures, like say coaches and executive salaries and a MUCH MUCH higher percentage of that $ would be mandated to providing more scholarships for more athletes in more sports.  It's a little delusional to claim you're focused on education when a such a small percentage of the $ you bring in goes to you know, actually educating students.

Every argument the NCAA ever makes boils down to "education not a business" but in the end what they say and what they do are completely at odds with each other...

Edited by nova, 03 February 2014 - 01:14 PM.


#43
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Here's more meat to chew on.

The NCAA claims that a scholarship agreement is a binding contract right?  That's why they say they own the persons likeness forever right?

To maintain your scholarship you have to do as the university dictates right?  Go to practice when the coach says, go to games, etc etc right?

Well guess what the federal legal definition of an employee is?

"a person who works in the service of another person (the employer) under an express or implied contract of hire, under which the employer has a right to control the details of the work performed"

So, the athletes sign a contract, where they are compensated for doing work under the control of the university.  If you don't do as the university says, you're kicked off the team (fired) and your compensation removed.  It sure sounds like they're employees to me...

Edited by nova, 03 February 2014 - 01:23 PM.


#44
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nova.......I respect your input on about every subject you comment on and the legal intracacies involved with this subject probably proclude us from actually forming an intelligent solution to the problem.

the only issue I have with your input in this thread is you are comparing apples to oranges, of course imo

an academic scholly would be a contract just as the football scholly........meaning that it requires academic effort to maintain a grade to keep the scholly.....the work by the student in that case would be determined by the student, versus the work required to maintain an athletic scholly, required by the school, and rightfully so considering the team aspect

I do disagree with the NCAA and schools defending their right to make hundreds of millions of dollars off the backs of players (through licensing of jersey's etc) though and I believe if you removed that aspect from the equation, the fiscal adjustments would be made by the NCAA and the school, compensating for the loss of that brand of income and although there would be some growing pains, it would be eventually a more sound set up than it is now

Edited by Haymaker, 03 February 2014 - 02:05 PM.


#45
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View PostHaymaker, on 03 February 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

an academic scholly would be a contract just as the football scholly........meaning that it requires academic effort to maintain a grade to keep the scholly.....the work by the student in that case would be determined by the student, versus the work required to maintain an athletic scholly, required by the school, and rightfully so considering the team aspect

There are requirements to maintaining a scholarship but the difference is the university doesn't control and direct HOW I meet those requirements.  In my experience there was no contract period, but there definitely was no requirement that I go to class X days a week, study Y days a week, attend Z tutorial sessions or put in Q hours at wind tunnel lab.  Exactly how I made the grade was up to me.  Ironically enough the how being up to me and associated lack of control is why I drank, partied and generally :lanekiffin:ed around till I was borrowing $ my last 3 semesters :P

With an athletic scholarship, the university controls every aspect of how you meet the requirements.  When, where and how you practice, travel, go to games. Everything.  On top of that, you might just get replaced if they find someone better at the work you do.

Legally it's the same difference as between an independent contractor vs an employee.  Which incidentally, the contractor parallel is why I got a 1099 and had to pay taxes on my scholarships over and above the cost to attend school.  Uncle Sam considers scholarship money the same as any other contract revenue, the cost to attend school ends up as a the cost to generate that revenue and the difference is the earnings you pay taxes on.....

I'm just going to go ahead and say, I'm going to be terribly shocked if the NLRB rules against the Northwestern players because of what I outlined above.  If you have a contract with an entity, do work for said entity, and the entity dictates the details of when where and how you do that work, you are an employee.

Edited by nova, 03 February 2014 - 02:54 PM.





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